Author Topic: Dead bat.  (Read 4865 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mabel

  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 8807
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Dead bat.
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:12:00 am »
I got my 08 C14 out this morning to ride and would'nt make a sound (dead)so I put the charger on it and it won't take a charge.My charger is reading bad bat.I bought it 5 months ago anyone had this problem?  
2008 c14, 2009KLR .09  09 WR45O 1980CBX 1979KZ1300

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

  • COG Technical Editor
  • Industry Member
  • Iron Butt
  • *
  • Posts: 3155
    • Angel Ride Videos
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 2170
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 07:31:00 am »
Yes, my battery also recently gave up the ghost. I took the bike to a dealer and got it replaced under warranty.    FYI, heat kills batteries, and I suspect this is what did mine in. It died despite being connected to a battery tender whenever parked.    I would suggest you not park the bike for more than a few days without connecting a battery tender to it. Batteries will self discharge, and the higher the temps, the faster they discharge themselves. When left in a discharged state, the plates then begin to build up sulfates on them, and when that happens, the battery is ruined.    The stock battery in the bike is listed as a FTZ14-BS.  FT is the manufacture code (FURUKAWA). This is a 14 amp hour battery. If you go to replace it, the best direct replacement you will probably find is a Yuasa YTX14-BS or YTX14H-BS. This is a 12 amp hour battery but is the proper size and has the proper configuration terminal. The dealer used a YTX14-BS when they replaced mine. Right now, no one except Furukawa makes a 14 amp hour battery in this size, and the OEM battery costs over $200. I spoke with Yuasa, and they are working on a new GYZ battery line that has a higher amp hour rating, and they will probably make a 14 amp hour replacement sometime in the future. But for now, the 12 amp hour Yuasa is going to have to suffice. So far it seems to be working fine in my bike.      
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:56:00 am by Fred_Harmon_TX »
Fred H.


Thanksgiving Sale in Effect now!  Concours 1400 Maintenance Videos 
http://www.angelridevideos.com

Offline Jaxrider

  • Road Bike
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Dead bat.
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 09:25:00 am »
Fred, good advice and very interesting on the battery sizes for the 14. I use a battery tender if the bike is siting for more than a day or two and it does help. I live in a hot area and it seems to help.      :)  David in Jax COG# 7898   NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends  I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200   Euro Review http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm  US Review http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/inde
2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 for riding with the wife
2004 SV650S for riding solo and on the track
2007 DRZ400SM for riding solo and on the track (lots of fun in 38hp)
Responsible for wrenching on all those plus my daughters' 2007 ZZR 600
US Review http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ro...200/index.html
EU Review http://www.motorbikestoday.com/revie...es/ZZR1200.html

Offline Robert_Elliott_GA

  • Scooter
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 7598
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Dead bat.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 09:45:00 am »
Another thing to keep an eye on, especially when running a battery tender in hot areas is fluid level.  I changed over to a GEL battery on my C10 so that I didn't have to check the level.  Cells going dry is the #1 killer of a battery, and in high heat, they evaporate faster.    
Robert Elliott
Cornelia, GA
SE Newsletter Editor
2006 C10  (totaled and gone)
COG # 7598
CDA#0293

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

  • COG Technical Editor
  • Industry Member
  • Iron Butt
  • *
  • Posts: 3155
    • Angel Ride Videos
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 2170
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 11:21:00 am »
The battery in the C14 is a maintenance free battery, and you should never open the top caps or attempt to add any fluid to it. Doing so will harm the battery.    All you need to do in terms of maintenance is keep the posts clean and the connections to it tight, and keep it on a battery maintainer of some sort.    Almost all newer bikes now use maintenance free batteries (either AGM or VRLA). I don't know of any models on the market that you still have to add water to like you did on the old C10 batteries.  
Fred H.


Thanksgiving Sale in Effect now!  Concours 1400 Maintenance Videos 
http://www.angelridevideos.com

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8803
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2009, 06:59:00 pm »
I'm going to step in here and call BS on Fred's claim.  Skip, likely your charger is reading bad batt because of a poor or bad connection...a poor connection will become oxadized, and result in a resistive coating on the metal terminals during use/running, it will give you that reading. A very high percentage of the faults I have heard since buying my C14 revolved around the dealers making a poor batt connection initially at installation disallowing correct charging to occur, and even a few that installed them backwards! Likely you have a bad connection, and simply removing, cleaning, and reconnecting will re-establish a continuity, and allow correct charging. I have also received documentation as to some defective batts, ones with bad terminals, and internal plate breakage, but only a couple.  Now, these batts are state of the art, the latest in gel/mat tecno stuff, there is absolutly no reason for them to go bad in 24 months.  I have an extensive backround in battery design, and technology, and hold patents on lithium ion cell packaging. These batts SHOULD last 48 months of normal usage, and at least 36 months at elevated temps. If you add a bunch of amp drawing farkles, which prevent the batt from regaining the charge lost during starting on short rides, well, that is another story.  If the batt is truely bad, the dealer will replace it, but this bs about sulfation and deterioration from a batt when installed and not frozen or subjected to deep cycle discharge without correct recharge cycles is just pooh with gel technology. This was why it was developed, to displace any chance of oxygen and dry plates where the oxides formed on "wet batt" designs. Also note that Gel bats require a stepped charge cycle, to "shock" the initial charge cycle and then reduce to maintain a correct level of charge when using a "battery maintainance " charger, like a battery tender. Incorrect charging does more deterioration upon the plates than normal cycling.    by the way, I am on my original battery,since I bought it 7-6-07 it has on occasion sat for 30 days at high, and low temps (20f and 100f), and never has skipped a beat, or had a battery tender on it. Ever.    it did however have loose connections at the terminals upon examination about a week after I purchased it, which I corrected......      
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 07:09:00 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline mabel

  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 8807
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Dead bat.
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2009, 07:51:00 am »
I don't know if I did but if you left a farkle on and compleily discharged the bat. is it toast or could it be recharged?  
2008 c14, 2009KLR .09  09 WR45O 1980CBX 1979KZ1300

Offline Zorlac

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1261
  • Bulletproof, eh? I'll be the judge of that!
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 6962
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2009, 02:53:00 pm »
A guy I know brought an AGM battery back from the dead with a charger after leaving his driving lights on for a couple days, I told him that the discharge had seriously shorted the remaining battery life but he continued to use it in his 01 Shadow until I think he did it again, then it was taps.      
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:53:00 pm by Zorlac »
COG #6962

Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

  • COG Technical Editor
  • Industry Member
  • Iron Butt
  • *
  • Posts: 3155
    • Angel Ride Videos
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 2170
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 07:29:00 pm »
Don't take my word for it, read what Yuasa has to say about the subject for yourself. But then, they are probably only the largest motorcycle battery manufacture in the world, so they wouldn't know what they are talking about.    Oh, and by the way, the batteries this bike comes with are not "Gel" batteries. They are VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) batteries, and are filled with liquid electrolyte. They contain separators that make them non-spillable and utilize gas recombination technology. While they are "maintenance free" (meaning you don't have to add water to them), referring to them as a Gel battery is incorrect terminology. Gel batteries have a silica solution in the electrolyte that makes it set up into a gel.    http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechMan.pdf    
Quote
During the discharge, lead sulfate is being formed on the battery plates. Although this is the normal activity within the battery during discharge, a timely recharge is required to drive out the sulfuric acid into the electrolyte.    Without this recharge, the lead sulfate will continue to develop and become difficult if not impossible to breakdown during recharge. Once this advanced sulfation develops, permanent capacity loss or total failure of the battery is likely. Besides the sulfation  concerns, many other detrimental actions are taking place inside the battery while in a discharged condition.
   
Quote
 Constant self-discharge is a fact of life for all batteries.    They lose strength as they sit there doing nothing.  The good news is that lead-calcium technology in a sealed VRLA battery slows down the self discharge process  substantially.    Conventional lead-antimony batteries discharge at about 1/100 volt a day
Fred H.


Thanksgiving Sale in Effect now!  Concours 1400 Maintenance Videos 
http://www.angelridevideos.com

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8803
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Dead bat.
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 04:56:00 pm »
Thanks greatly for the enlightenment. I'll further comment on that shortly....    You blindly failed to address what I personally feel is the OP's problem.... i.e. what really is going on here.  He stated:  "I put the charger on it and it won't take a charge.My charger is reading bad bat.I bought it 5 months ago anyone had this problem?"  Instead of an answer, you gave him a longwinded report of your latest battery findings. Not quite what he asked for, albeit an interesting read. Pat on the back for sharing, but lets answer the man's question, ok?    My explanation as to why this likely occured cannot be disputed, and although I did jump into the "gel" batt design construction explano during my diatribe, I must admit I did slip slightly by not being specific about this batts construction....but was not wrong in stating the batt in question is not prone to the same conditions as "open celled.vented to atmosphere, lead acid conventional batts" are.  Yes, this is a VRLA batt, meaning it does not gas off, and loose it's contents....therefore sulfation is reduced by the inherent design, of which many are of a "wet mat" or "sponge" type containment....insuring complete cathode/anode wetting at all times.  Yes, Gel tech is another step up from this battery, and does have an even better design, but both share common premis' of keeping the electrolyte in contact at all times, and preclude evaporation and cell drying....the major killer of batts, and promotor of sulfation by this action. Evaporation causes a higher concentration of the acid, which results in increased sulfation on both the atmosherically exposed plate, and the submerged section, simply put it is easier to draw the ion out of solution and deposit it on the plate.  I also do not dipute but rather concur that it takes regular charge cycles to re-combine the electrolyte, and that if the connections to the battery and the charging circuit have been compromised, this will not occur....again, in my original diatribe.    I really don't need further explanation on how the battery works, as I said, I designed batteries and understand every different type and style, it was my job.  Using quotes from YUASA is kind of humorous, seeing as they have been the leader in the field of "Fatal Battery Death Syndrome" historically, that is manufacturing batteries that just simply crap out with no warning. Internal flaws, cell shorting, breakages of internal connections, and just plain mediocre quality are their trademark.... and of course they love that, because they sell batteries!  :eg:    Their "figures" in both quotes are VERY vague and misleading, and actually biased.  With explanations like those, simply a battery designed to be placed in an engine compartment, or area other than 70F is a loosing battle...yeah, I suppose so, but then how many engine compartments operate at that temp?...great stuff....  :eg:  now, for them to toss out the statement:  "Conventional lead-antimony batteries discharge at about 1/100 volt a day

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline mabel

  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 8807
  • Membership Level: Expired - Expired Term
Dead bat.
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 07:43:00 am »
Had another bat. go bad.........I may have left my Gps on and did'nt know it for a week result bat. dead and will not charge (junk) I went to Advance and bought an agm bat and hope that will work.If you forget and leave the switch on or one of your farkles you can plan on buying a new bat. because it will be junk..............  
2008 c14, 2009KLR .09  09 WR45O 1980CBX 1979KZ1300