Author Topic: Driveline lash  (Read 1907 times)

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Online RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2017, 07:59:19 am »
If you offer 401K, a sign up bonus, and perks associated with such lucrative position let us know so we can all mull it over.  ;)

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 12:58:45 pm »
I habe Ivans concours 14 reflash, and i would 100% guarantee theres no need for a throttle tamer, and you dont feel drvetrain lash.

On my ninja 1000, i run a riflemans 1/5 insert and will be ordering one for my concours as well.

The why/how is because his software allows him access to things that other software does not see.  The day i feel last, or need a throttle tamer, after paying for a reflash...thats what the reflash is for, isnt it?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:46:25 pm by rcannon409 »

Offline d04011

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2017, 02:02:44 pm »
I'm assuming the "gear/drive train lash" is part of the reason that I don't get smooth shifts on my C-14, especially from first to second.  I thought maybe it was just me...  It was somewhat better after I got Steve's flash but still there.

Forgot to mention, I have a 2015 C-14 and beginning that year the first gear got lowered so there is a more significant difference in gearing now from first to second.

I never experienced it on my shaft drive 1984 Honda V-65 Sabre (I'm the original owner) which I rode as recently as this week.  Nor do I experience it on either of my shaft drive Triumph Rocket 3s.

I did NOT get Steve's flash hoping to address the shifting, I assumed it was essentially a mechanical issue.  I got it for overall performance and I got more than I had hoped for in that regard.  The C-14 didn't get interesting until 5+k rpms and now it pulls strong (in a linear fashion) from half the rpms, it is smoother and I get better gas mileage to boot.  I wouldn't have bought my ZX-14R if I had gotten Steve's flash earlier.  It is the best "bang for the buck" mod I have ever done to any of my bikes and I strongly recommend it to others.

rcannon - Not sure what your vendetta is against Steve but you really need to let it go (and use spell check).  Ivan has great flashes for many different bikes and if I were considering getting a flash for my ZX-14R, I would likely go with either him or Nels at 2 Wheel Dynoworks.  The reason companies make different flavors of ice cream is so people can get which one they prefer.  Think about it...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 07:06:17 pm by d04011 »
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2017, 02:58:06 pm »
I got around to measuring mine and it is about like the others have reported.  I got 2" at the rim and 4" of linear bike movement with bike off and in first.

I had my second ride with a throttle tamer also and I would say it makes me about 40% happier with hard twisties transition riding.  I can now just sort of tighten my grip and just feel a easy transition from no throttle to slight loading of the suspension.  It is better and I like it but could be better.
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Offline strum

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2017, 02:59:35 pm »
I've wondered about this also and im in agreement with Rkill . i would call it drive line slop. If im shifting with a lot of power on its smooth as butter . but sometimes very low speed mild shifting i get a little slop. I dont get the helmet banging i used to pre flash but its still slightly present.
 I think when easing off in 1st and then pulling in the clutch the rear wheel is moving just a touch faster than the transmission is . Not sure if im saying it right but that little bit of slack is created because of slop (where ever it is) . heck you have a few different gears meshing so to keep all the slack out would be a feat. On a chain or belt  bike the slack is still there but the chain/belt has a different feel.  the weight and power of the C14 causes that backlash take up to have a more abrupt feel.
 Im also in agreement with the idea that throttle cable adjustment must be correct.
  Steve is saying he may have hit on something so thats good news but for me with the evo flash,tt and the bearing shifter im pretty happy with what I have.
 
 
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Offline khager01

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2017, 05:26:08 pm »
Well, whatever reason my shifts are not near as smooth on the Connie as the Wee-Strom.  I know I have more than double the power, so maybe I need to try a different technique.
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Offline PeteTN_zgtr

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2017, 05:57:04 pm »
Mine rolls about 4-1/4" back and forth in 1st gear.  Seems like the OP's 8" is excessive although I just noticed it was 5 measured another way. I pushed mine at the bars and not sitting on it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 06:00:48 pm by PeteTN_zgtr »

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2017, 06:52:25 pm »
Well, whatever reason my shifts are not near as smooth on the Connie as the Wee-Strom.  I know I have more than double the power, so maybe I need to try a different technique.
I don't miss grinding 1-2 shift of my Vee. Every Time you shifted 1-2 above 5K rpm, it would produce this grrrrr before it engeged. I've had it compared with other Vee(s), just like C14 has this slop, Vee(s) had this grinding issue.

Cheers...

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2017, 06:54:04 pm »
Last night I changed oil (Rotella T6) and mu shifts are back to being smooth. Just like wearing pair of new sneakers... :)

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2017, 07:34:46 pm »
Last night I changed oil (Rotella T6) and mu shifts are back to being smooth. Just like wearing pair of new sneakers... :)

Interesting... not that oil can affect shifting, that's old news, but maybe not to everyone. And what's strange is what works in one bike may not work well in another. Everyone raved about rotella t6 in their c-10's, I ran it 2x, and couldn't get past 2k miles without it feeling like my transmission was broken. OTOH, i could run 5k on M1 turbo diesel and the transmission almost shifted itself. That's how my c-14 is, too. Steve
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 10:37:44 am »
Remember, if we all are measuring the drive-line slop at the rim the actual distance at the tire where it hits the road will be much longer, just saying...
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 01:08:45 pm »
Remember, if we all are measuring the drive-line slop at the rim the actual distance at the tire where it hits the road will be much longer, just saying...
And if you don't measure at the rim you are subject to changes in tire size and type.  Just sayin...

Now that we know about what normal is though you can start to judge if yours is way off.   I am sure the book has the correct way but this is a good seat of your pants test.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 04:07:30 pm »
Remember, if we all are measuring the drive-line slop at the rim the actual distance at the tire where it hits the road will be much longer, just saying...
And if you don't measure at the rim you are subject to changes in tire size and type.  Just sayin...

Now that we know about what normal is though you can start to judge if yours is way off.   I am sure the book has the correct way but this is a good seat of your pants test.

true,  :beerchug:
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2017, 12:50:03 pm »
Last night I changed oil (Rotella T6) and mu shifts are back to being smooth. Just like wearing pair of new sneakers... :)

Interesting... not that oil can affect shifting, that's old news, but maybe not to everyone. And what's strange is what works in one bike may not work well in another. Everyone raved about rotella t6 in their c-10's, I ran it 2x, and couldn't get past 2k miles without it feeling like my transmission was broken. OTOH, i could run 5k on M1 turbo diesel and the transmission almost shifted itself. That's how my c-14 is, too. Steve

Steve, 100% agree on the Rotella not working very well.

I tired in in an sv650, yz 250, ninja 1000 as well as the concours 14.

I wanted it to work.  I know it's price is great, and it's rated well enough to do the job. It would have solved so many problems.  My wifes car takes a strange weight oil, but outside of that, the Rotella would have been fine for everything else. No more garage looking like a pep boys store.

At first, no problem, but after a few miles, it was as if someone had installed extra neutrals in the gearboxes, and broken is a very good description..
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 01:28:54 pm by rcannon409 »

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 04:32:34 pm »
OK, I've been working on this by datalogging and I have to slow down the readout to 1/10 speed to pick up on what's going on.

  It appears to be a delay in the response from the throttle position sensor. I can clearly see that throttle has been applied by looking at the response from the intake pressure sensor, but the throttle sensor isn't showing any movement.

  When I open my throttle WFO, it only reads 92%.

  I've dealt with this in the past on automotive applications, the issue is that the tps isn't properly calibrated to the throttle plates, so even though they are being opened, the message isn't getting to the ECU. Look at the 8% difference my wot reads. imagine I rotated the tps enough to get to 100%... then I'd have brought the lag spot from zero throttle up to or maybe past where the actual throttle is.

  I'm going to go mess with this some more. Currently I have been working on something that really makes it easy when going on / off throttle in gear to pick the power back up controllably. the only time I see the tps time factor play a role is during shifts. I can either have crazy smooth or jerky shifts, depending on how I come back on throttle. I tend to be very smooth in my regular riding. I engage the gear and once the clutch is out I'm getting into the throttle. this during lighter criusing, of course. Shifts are 100% smooth.

  This may also be why some folks say no slack is critical. What they may actually be doing is opening the throttle a little and getting it more to the opening calibration of the tps. In fact that's a good test... I'm going to go do that right now.

 Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 04:53:18 pm »
Steve, if it helps;
Mine is most noticeable when going on/off/on throttle while cruising at lower speeds.
No shifting involved. I just get a clunk when I lightly re-apply the throttle.

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Offline Bob H

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 04:58:54 pm »
The concurrent development of software and hardware in a schedule limited environment usually leaves mistakes and rough edges.

Does the old phrase "Trust but verify" apply here?.....and possibly to other ECU inputs and outputs?

If the ECU isn't really getting (or reading) the correct inputs, and if it's outputs aren't being correctly translated to physical results as intended, there may be other improvements to be discovered.

Remember, much of what you see on-line is wrong or misguided, your task is to filter that out!
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 06:59:22 pm »
 OK, so that's the answer - the mismatch between the tps and reality.  :-[ I think this is a pretty critical find, because it not only answers how to fix the driveline slack feeling , but the actual reason we're feeling it.

    Look at it this way... you pull the throttle on the right handlebar. Your input then is carried through a cable to the left side of the throttle body, where it turns a bellcrank attached to cyl# 1 throttle plate / shafte. then it becomes spring loaded from there, as it moves each consecutive throttle, until it ends up at the Thtottle position sensor, on the far right side of thottle body #4. Lot's of room for slack and delection when measuring your input until the tps reads the movement. Couple that with a tps that isn't really callibrated to the actual movement, and well, there's some lag time that translates into "driveline slack".

  Adjusting all the slack out is a start, but isn't enough. Once all the slack is out, turn the adjusting barrel at least more more full turn tight. On my bike it didn't raise the idle  (that's to much) but it had a definite affect on the amount of driveline slack I was experiencing particuarly with upshifts. I really didn't have an issue with that unless I forced it, but even forcing it doesn't mess up the shifts now.

  Is this going to fix everyones slightest little issue? NO. But I can tell you it really helps. The real fix would be to calibrate each TPS to the bike... but somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

  So to recap - Tighten your pull throttle cable to the point that it's tight I mean ZERO slack , then add 1 turn to the barrel. Go ride and see if that helps.

  Steve

 
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2017, 01:26:39 pm »
Understanding check; {Layman's terms}
  Basically it sounds like the throttle body opens a bit (say 5%) and then the TPS wakes up and sends a signal to the ECU.
  The ECU then tells the injectors to start firing, but they start firing at 5% powered pulses? Resulting in a clunk??

I know I didn't say it exactly right, but did I get the idea right?

Question: There is a procedure floating around about calibrating the TPS/ECU. 

Some reported it helped whatever problem they were having. I think you said it had no effect.

Is there any chance that procedure would help the TPS/ECU here?

Bad Ted... Wuz just asking...  Forget I sed this.    :'(


Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:05:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2017, 03:22:19 pm »
I have felt the lash parked in 1st gear. Heard the slight thunking sound after rolling back and forth a couple inches.
Wasn't sure what to make of it, but yea, makes sense that it may just be mechanical slop.

Less noticable on my C10 if noticed at all.

Maybe this is the reason for "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride" while rolling over large gravel from my garage to highway.
It is definitely less noticable on fine hard packed gravel.
Not sure if a flashed C14 is any better rolling over LARGE gravel.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2017, 03:34:51 pm »
Understanding check; {Layman's terms}
  Basically it sounds like the throttle body opens a bit (say 5%) and then the TPS wakes up and sends a signal to the ECU.
  The ECU then tells the injectors to start firing, but they start firing at 5% powered pulses? Resulting in a clunk??

I know I didn't say it exactly right, but did I get the idea right?

Question: There is a procedure floating around about calibrating the TPS/ECU.
               As I recall it was turn key on, rotate the throttle thru a full rotation. {maybe twice}
               Turn key off.

Some reported it helped whatever problem they were having. I think you said it had no effect.

Is there any chance that procedure would help the TPS/ECU here?

Ride safe, Ted

Ted - that proceedure doesn't work. It's a bmw proceedure. if you watch the video, the poster created the issue by have the throttle open during shutdown. This screws up the next startup via the secondaries. Please stop even mentioning it, it's a wives tale and it needs to go away. Steve
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2017, 03:52:13 pm »
I don't have a knock sound. (Teds tiny brain knocking back and forth maybe?) My issue is when coming in under hard braking I get off the brake and try to crack the throttle as I start the lean.  The bike lurches with power as soon as I crack it and upsets the bike.  I didn't have that issue on other bikes like the C10 but all my other bikes have not had the power this one has.  I figured I would learn to control it but not so far. 
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2017, 04:23:24 pm »

How I overcome throttle lag and/or gear lash.
  On a two day ride I just completed in the Sierra Mountains I paid close attention to how I was riding. Most of the time in the Sierra canyons were 2nd or 3rd gear between 4.5k and 7.5k rpm with closed throttle at turn entry and immediately coming open again with a touch of back brake to load the drive shaft and chassis while trail breaking with the front. Just prior to the apex I’ll be completely off the front brake and opening the throttle while releasing the rear brake. This is especially helpful in a 1st gear turn where the slight rear brake helps keep the front end planted and not in the air coming out of the corner. I tend to use engine breaking rather than brakes when I can. I hate to keep talking about rotating mass but It’s why I run higher rpm. The crank has enough effect > 6.5-7k rpm settling the chassis that it’s significant on this bike.
  These techniques take time and practice to be effective rather than dangerous, use them with caution.
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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2017, 04:46:25 pm »
immediately coming open again with a touch of back brake to load the drive shaft and chassis while trail breaking with the front.

 I ride an 09 C14 without ABS but with Steve's Evo flash.[/size][/font]

I was wondering about the rear brake, I see no ABS, maybe a good thing.  Don't even try that on a 2013 with linked brakes, it will scare the s*** out of you. I leave the rear alone when in the twisty bits.
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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2017, 04:48:45 pm »
No ABS is the reason I still ride an 09. ;D
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