Author Topic: Driveline lash  (Read 1994 times)

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Offline gpd323

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Driveline lash
« on: September 14, 2017, 05:53:19 pm »
I have the flash (1st gen) and I have a throttle tamer. What I find is the large amount of drive-line lash amplifies the abrupt off/on throttle roll on especially if being aggressive. If my bike is in gear (engine off) I can roll back till it tightens up and then roll forward till it again tightens and stops moving each direction. There is a significant amount of distance involved, maybe 8 inches of travel at least. So my thoughts there is no way to make the throttle perfectly smooth unless you deliberately make it so. Which I can but after 3K+ trip I got back from yesterday I think its impossible at all times.

My chained bikes have less than 1/2 the lash (drive-train slack) versus the C14  Thoughts?  :beerchug:
Greg Downing
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 06:13:08 pm »
I have been considering the same issues.   I felt the abruptness of the on off throttle was to much.   I got the flash and it really did not help that much with that issue.   I also just got a throttle tamer and that only helped a bit more.   I can live with it now but still a bit hard to transition unless as you say I think about making it smooth.   The C10 was always smooth.

I will check my lash but did not notice it being that bad when I refurbished bike and re-greased the drive shaft.  I don't think mine is out of spec.

I was wondering if there could be a way that some bikes injectors are just more abrupt than others.  Or if there is any other way it could be a fuel delivery problem what very or can be corrected.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 07:10:57 pm »
I have something I want to try. I want you two guys to send me your ecu's and let me load it. Let's see if we can beat it in the ecu. No promises, except for my best effort. pm me. Steve
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 08:30:29 pm »
OK PM sent, I also have the throttle tamer and it does not help with the excessive lash on/off throttle.
Greg Downing
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 09:02:41 pm »
I doubt much can be done regarding the large amount of DL lash. All you have to do is decelerate and then grab some throttle and as the lash is taken up its a big jerking sensation. Same coming off the throttle immediately, same abrupt motion as the dive-line loads up the other direction.
Greg Downing
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Offline angelo

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 10:24:52 am »
I may be way off base here, but the way I read it I wonder if it is not the suspension being set too soft so that the bike becomes unsettled with large amounts of throttle in or out.   Does the bike dive too much if you do front brakes only hard?  Is static sag somewhere around an inch? 

Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 12:13:15 pm »
I may be way off base here, but the way I read it I wonder if it is not the suspension being set too soft so that the bike becomes unsettled with large amounts of throttle in or out.   Does the bike dive too much if you do front brakes only hard?  Is static sag somewhere around an inch?

I know it's not that for me but thanks for contributing.  I set mine up at an inch of sag and then as close to that as I could get with the SO on the bike also.  I have been riding both settings because I forget to set the hard one back to softer sometimes.  It is very firm in that case.

I forgot to measure my lash last night.  :(
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2017, 12:21:32 pm »
I'll be monitoring this discussion.  If he can fix this, I'll really be impressed..

I feel that my bike also has excessive Driveline lash, {which causes a clunk when I roll on/off throttle}.
   {I've compared several C-14's and I think some C-14's have more {mechanical} Driveline Lash than others.}

Mine is more noticeable to me in higher gears/at low speeds.
   {when I'm barely using any throttle and repeatedly rolling on/off the throttle, I get a "clunk"}

In my case, I had the Decell flash and was one of the prototype testers on the Evo.
While discussing the new Flash, I told Steve about the concern.
I'm very impressed by the Evo Flash. I like the smooth power it makes.
   I feel it made a "lot" of difference on initial throttle abruptness.  :great:
   In addition to better rideability, the clunk mostly went away.
         But, not quite...
          I think the only reason it isn't gone is excessive driveline lash.

NOTE: I also installed a (home made) throttle tamer, adjusted the throttle cables, and my suspension.

Steve,,, I'll be watching.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 01:07:42 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline BDF

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 12:40:28 pm »
This is a very common complaint about C-14's. A lot of us have found it is rooted in excessive cable play or 'slop' in the throttle cables; they are adjusted too loose and spec.'d to be too loose (too much free play). If the cables are tightened until most or all of the slack is removed, most people find the drivetrain snatch problem goes away. What appears to be too much mechanical looseness in the drivetrain is really too much slack in the throttle cables; gently rolling on the throttle does not work because the throttle is not being opened until all of the slack is taken out.

I adjust mine to have zero slack but if doing so it is important not to go too far or it will cause undue stress on the throttle rod in the throttle bodies, and may cause the throttle to stick.

Of course I am only speaking about a stock C-14, and not speaking about any modifications regarding the ECU or actual throttle behavior.

Brian

I have the flash (1st gen) and I have a throttle tamer. What I find is the large amount of drive-line lash amplifies the abrupt off/on throttle roll on especially if being aggressive. If my bike is in gear (engine off) I can roll back till it tightens up and then roll forward till it again tightens and stops moving each direction. There is a significant amount of distance involved, maybe 8 inches of travel at least. So my thoughts there is no way to make the throttle perfectly smooth unless you deliberately make it so. Which I can but after 3K+ trip I got back from yesterday I think its impossible at all times.

My chained bikes have less than 1/2 the lash (drive-train slack) versus the C14  Thoughts?  :beerchug:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:46:32 pm by BDF »
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 02:16:40 pm »
Guys, its not slack in the throttle cables, or the suspension. its a mechanical issue thats at play here. Sit on your bike, place it in 1st gear, roll the bike till it stops going forward, now roll it backwards till it stops. Thats the dive-line lash or play if you want to call it that.

Sure the flash and TT make it really smooth as you accelerate through the gears and have the drive-line lash taken up, but add some corners and on/off throttle and the excessive amount of play will be felt. I really doubt nothing short of a mechanical fix will cure this. It may be the way it is and will have to live with it.



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Offline BDF

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 03:00:34 pm »
Well, I only mentioned the throttle cables because it has been effective in eliminating drive line snatch (not actual driveline lash) for a lot of people. Of course you are right that it will not address any mechanical lash, and it does sound like your particular situation, on- and- off throttle, is a bit different than most complaints and so the throttle cable adjustment may well not apply here.

There is significant lash in the drive system which comes from the combination of the lash or clearance in the bevel gears, the final drive gears and perhaps a bit from the output gear on the transmission, all combined. And I think you are exactly right about that being virtually impossible to remove on any reasonable level; it might not be removable at all as all the gears do require some lash even if custom made (read: $$$$).

Chain drive motorcycles do have their advantages, no way around that one.

Brian

Guys, its not slack in the throttle cables, or the suspension. its a mechanical issue thats at play here. Sit on your bike, place it in 1st gear, roll the bike till it stops going forward, now roll it backwards till it stops. Thats the dive-line lash or play if you want to call it that.

Sure the flash and TT make it really smooth as you accelerate through the gears and have the drive-line lash taken up, but add some corners and on/off throttle and the excessive amount of play will be felt. I really doubt nothing short of a mechanical fix will cure this. It may be the way it is and will have to live with it.
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 03:37:09 pm »
If some of you can go out and measure your lash I would like to get a "typical" number.   
I would put it on the center stand and take how far in inches you can rotate the rim back and forth measured at the rim edge for consistency.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 04:56:53 pm »
Good idea but thats with zero weight involved on the drive train. I feel a better way is with rider on the bike and pushing full forward and then backward to actually take all the lash out.

Static lash on the CS using my hands is 2.5 inches. I will not be able to get a full weight on the drive train till later on today when I have an assistant.

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Offline sam_uk

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 05:37:22 pm »
could it be the damper cam in the bevel gear case that is causing the problem.It slots onto the output shaft and looks like there is play there.If you could reduce the play between the two it may work. Or a stronger spring maybe Just a thought. Here is a pic of the casing side. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KAWASAKI-ZG1400-CONCOURS-MIDDLE-DRIVE-CAM-AND-SPRING-/150491804672?hash=item230a02b400:m:mogUEW3-bnvIJspuIzBX4zg&vxp=mtr

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 05:43:27 pm »
could it be the damper cam in the bevel gear case that is causing the problem.It slots onto the output shaft and looks like there is play there.If you could reduce the play between the two it may work. Or a stronger spring maybe Just a thought. Here is a pic of the casing side. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KAWASAKI-ZG1400-CONCOURS-MIDDLE-DRIVE-CAM-AND-SPRING-/150491804672?hash=item230a02b400:m:mogUEW3-bnvIJspuIzBX4zg&vxp=mtr


  stronger spring, maybe. the spring allows the cams to climb each other to dissipate hard throttle input. I've built over 100 bevel drives for the c-10, so I get it. Steve

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Offline sam_uk

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 05:47:52 pm »
 :great:Do you think the cams could be joined (welded). Would the clutch dampers take the load.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:51:56 pm by sam_uk »

Offline angelo

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 06:12:59 pm »
Maybe it is bike to bike then or a mechanical issue on yours. 

On the C14 I've ridden for 30 k miles, the driveline is the best shaftie in my experience and rivals the chain bikes I have had.  Going slow or pushing hard at high rpms in curves. 

I'll see what I have for a measurement (in the garage anyway) tonight. 


Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 08:06:42 pm »
I'm sure someone with time and desire could reduce this lash issue by inspecting and adjusting the rear gearcase shims, ...
See section 11-15 and 11-16 of FSM... there is an "adjusting" screw on the inner cover plate of the case, that may be adjusted a bit.. but frankly I don't see how it really does anything other than back up on a gear hub when the gears are under extreme pressure of hard acceleration...
Also not the shim that fits under the perimeter of that inner cover, and its effects on lash and tooth contact...
The whole procedure for setting up from scratch is explained from 11-17 thru 11-20, and is a bit involved for a novice, but some semblence of careful.analysis can be accomplished, possibly reducing the felt lash a bit without wedging the mesh up...

I may try it someday, as I ain't skeeered... just have no desire to rip it down for experiments.. maybe next time I pull stuff off for a lube and such I'll dig into it...

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 03:56:31 pm »
When I was showing my riding buddy the amount of lash I was fully loaded and on a trip at the time and sitting in traffic. I just sat on the bike (I weigh 150 pounds) and pushed it forward, had my wife make a mark, then I pushed it backwards and she made a mark.

In this situation there is 5 inches of play fore/aft play in the driveline. If you recall, on the CS and just using my hand to check lash (no load) it was 2.5 inches.
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Offline khager01

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 05:02:51 pm »
If some of you can go out and measure your lash I would like to get a "typical" number.   
I would put it on the center stand and take how far in inches you can rotate the rim back and forth measured at the rim edge for consistency.

Just checked mine it is 2.5 inches also.  2017 MY with 2500 miles.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 05:50:00 pm »
This is an interesting exercise... I wonder how the range of numbers form the C14 compare to the range for C10s.

There is one thing that would cause any driveline lash on the C14 to feel more than on a C10... engine size. The C14 should have more engine decel than the C10, and it certainly has more torque, and the throttle response is slightly slower because of the electronics, but more abrupt. Any driveline lash might feel more because of these factors.

Maybe some that have a C10 can do the same measurement and we can compare. It's easy enough to do, even by yourself by using the sidestand, and rocking forward and back as other  described.

EDIT: I just posted on the C10 daughter board asking for same info. I'm going to measure mine as well - just to confirm... is everyone doing this while the bike is in 1st gear?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 05:58:15 pm by Jorge »

Offline gpd323

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 06:04:21 pm »
I did mine in first gear
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2017, 01:54:00 am »
OK... here's what I think has been measured so far (please keep in mind that there is some variation since we're not all going to do it EXACTLY the same).

C10              C14        Submitter
-------------------------------------
                     5"          gpd323
                     2.5"       khager01
3"                               Pbfoot
                     3.75"    Jorge

PS: I'm posting in the C10 area also.

Online RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2017, 02:56:52 am »
In order to accurately measure driveline lash, transmission must be locked so the output shaft if fixed, the same must be done to drive wheel. Then driveline lash can be measured.
Ask any serious gearhead about gear backlash.  ;)
What y'all talking about is total drivetrain slop.
Any manual gearbox equipped vehicle will have drivetrain slop.
Stop worrying about inconsequential things.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:07:50 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Driveline lash
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2017, 05:39:36 am »
We are always looking to find technical advisors, with a bonifide history of ownerrship of both the ZG1000, and the ZG1400, from bothe's infancy, up to today, and respect those that have done the research, based on ownership, dilligent maintainence, and repairs, along with the full understanding of the specs, and owner reported findings...



Maybe a tech advisor position icould be available, just ask... but when you do, please, ... please, do it justice....

Or maybe that's just not your bag..
I always invite anyone with some tech expertise. I will always do so.

 Depends on the posters real intent, and desire to share, spend time, and sacrifice.,. To keep these bikes and the cures for ills.. simplified.



Not asking you to spend the fee to become a COG member, or even saying if u want to hold an appointed or elected office, you have to spend more $$ for an AMA membership..

But that is kinda a warning if you aare on a buget, and wanna ,... no, never mind.... I'm ired, and going to bed.

Nighty night..



« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 05:49:00 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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