Author Topic: Dyno Charts Are In  (Read 69747 times)

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Offline SAS Mayhem

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2015, 03:15:10 pm »
Excellent work, Steve. Very impressive.
Cheers
Ron
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2015, 03:25:54 pm »

I wish there was a way to preform (and plot) a low throttle "response" test. {that makes sense to people}.

Ride safe, Ted

 actually Ted, you can see the throttle response on that chart. if you look at how vertical the acceleration line is on the TQ curve right in the beginning, you see it goes up higher and has less curve where it turns. the whole torque curve in the beginning is more "square" that shows that the bike instantly responds to throttle input it doesn't have to "build up" . HTH, Steve

Sorry, I miss-spoke; I was referring to doing "low throttle opening" dyno runs, (and time vs rpm plots).

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 03:51:36 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2015, 03:57:07 pm »

Sorry, I miss-spoke; I was referring to doing "low throttle opening" dyno runs, (and time vs rpm plots).

Ride safe, Ted
Actually Chris Jones and I spoke at length about that, he says that's the largest single data point a dyno cannot capture. Now maybe if an eddy current dyno was used to change load, it may capture it better.

 Regardless, as I've maintained from the beginning, if you're using a dyno chart to determine whose flash is better, you're missing the whole point of rideabilty which is best done by...riding. I built this whole flash by riding. Zero changes on the dyno. I would have made changes if I saw a need, but I really didn't see anything I wanted to change, and the riding manners are simply outstanding. Steve
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Offline SWOJO95

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2015, 04:05:55 pm »
Steve, what does the A/F look like?

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2015, 04:12:44 pm »

Sorry, I miss-spoke; I was referring to doing "low throttle opening" dyno runs, (and time vs rpm plots).

Ride safe, Ted
Actually Chris Jones and I spoke at length about that, he says that's the largest single data point a dyno cannot capture. Now maybe if an eddy current dyno was used to change load, it may capture it better.

 Regardless, as I've maintained from the beginning, if you're using a dyno chart to determine whose flash is better, you're missing the whole point of rideabilty which is best done by...riding. I built this whole flash by riding. Zero changes on the dyno. I would have made changes if I saw a need, but I really didn't see anything I wanted to change, and the riding manners are simply outstanding. Steve

I totally agree with you. & You said it better than I.
I was trying to express. A dyno can't give you the complete picture.

That's why I sed;
I wish there was a way to preform (and plot) a low throttle "response" test. {that makes sense to people}.

Bottom line; Dyno's can never tell you what the seat of your pants shows you.

Sounds like you have it right!

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:52:13 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2015, 05:12:06 pm »

Sorry, I miss-spoke; I was referring to doing "low throttle opening" dyno runs, (and time vs rpm plots).

Ride safe, Ted
Actually Chris Jones and I spoke at length about that, he says that's the largest single data point a dyno cannot capture. Now maybe if an eddy current dyno was used to change load, it may capture it better.

 Regardless, as I've maintained from the beginning, if you're using a dyno chart to determine whose flash is better, you're missing the whole point of rideabilty which is best done by...riding. I built this whole flash by riding. Zero changes on the dyno. I would have made changes if I saw a need, but I really didn't see anything I wanted to change, and the riding manners are simply outstanding. Steve

I agree 100%.  If anything the dyno simulates what you might do at a drag strip which is to accelerate from 0 mph to top speed (or the end of the track) as rapidly as possible.  I virtually never do that in real life on my C14.  I once rode a friend's Hayabusa which had been reflashed with a "dyno" map.  It was AWFUL!  But he said, "get ON it!" and when I did the bike was like a rocket.  So he had sacrificed drive-ability for raw acceleration.  I think too many of the flashes do that.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about this SISF flash, so far it sounds VERY interesting!
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Offline TurboBul

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2015, 05:26:52 pm »
I am work whit Woolich racing flash
The end of oktober i tink the bike is finisht
On this moment the bik runs 153 Hp/bw
I put a K&N on it and the stok exaust  i modifi  it
Hè is 10 cm shoter and the katalysators are exit
Hes running on 98 octaan in Holland

I hope to get160 hp  :-\

When it's dane i post the dyno run  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 05:29:36 am by TurboBul »

Offline Jet Fixer

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2015, 05:52:09 pm »
Very impressive Steve!    Nicely done.   :great:

Any idea on when you might be able to start accepting ECU's ?    >:D >:D

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2015, 06:04:45 pm »

Any idea on when you might be able to start accepting ECU's ?    >:D >:D

  I am having a few coming in now, only from those guys I know as I work out the "system". I think it's going to fall in place pretty quickly, I have done over 500 sets of carbs mail - in from connie owners, and this will be basically the same system. I kind of want to get the videos up first too. Steve
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2015, 06:13:42 pm »
Steve, what does the A/F look like?

Steve, I'll let the dust settle with all the hubbub and just plan on sending you my ecu after New Year's...  :beerchug:

I too would like to know what the A/F ratio looks like throughout the rev range...
I'm glad to hear you mention earlier that you've leaned out the fuel map at low throttle openings.
Great for fuel mileage during those boring highway drones! :great:

I've always thought that the factory ECO mode was a waste...
If the "standard" fuel map is done correctly/most efficiently, you should be able to get good cruising fuel mileage yet still have full power available at WOT.
I'd rather use ECO mode for a "valet" style map that cuts power by something like 30-40%.
Something just for horrible conditions or for when your buddy rides your bike. ;D

I know you've been flooded with questions, but I've gotta know:
You have adjusted the fuel map. Correct?
You have played with the timing/opening of the secondary throttle plates. Correct?
This is the mystery question that no one has asked:
What have you done as far as altering timing?
Maybe nothing...?
I know the C14's VVT system makes it dufficult to manipulate the mechanical timing, but maybe you've found some wiggle room to alter ignition timing?

Regardless, it sounds like you've really made some nice strides here buddy.
I'll patiently keep my credit card info ready to send to you.
Look forward to hearing more specifics & doin' business.

Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2015, 06:24:48 pm »

Nice!       :allhail:

Offline GreeneGigantor

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2015, 06:56:05 pm »
Steve, what does the A/F look like?

Steve, I'll let the dust settle with all the hubbub and just plan on sending you my ecu after New Year's...  :beerchug:

I too would like to know what the A/F ratio looks like throughout the rev range...
I'm glad to hear you mention earlier that you've leaned out the fuel map at low throttle openings.
Great for fuel mileage during those boring highway drones! :great:

I've always thought that the factory ECO mode was a waste...
If the "standard" fuel map is done correctly/most efficiently, you should be able to get good cruising fuel mileage yet still have full power available at WOT.
I'd rather use ECO mode for a "valet" style map that cuts power by something like 30-40%.
Something just for horrible conditions or for when your buddy rides your bike. ;D

I know you've been flooded with questions, but I've gotta know:
You have adjusted the fuel map. Correct?
You have played with the timing/opening of the secondary throttle plates. Correct?
This is the mystery question that no one has asked:
What have you done as far as altering timing?
Maybe nothing...?
I know the C14's VVT system makes it dufficult to manipulate the mechanical timing, but maybe you've found some wiggle room to alter ignition timing?

Regardless, it sounds like you've really made some nice strides here buddy.
I'll patiently keep my credit card info ready to send to you.
Look forward to hearing more specifics & doin' business.

I can't speak for Steve, but in my humble opinion, I can't imagine him sharing his formula
in detail with his competitors
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2015, 07:33:25 pm »
^^^^ understandably so. :truce:

But before forking over $300, some of the masses(such as myself) may want to know exactly what changes are being made and what exactly can be accommodated per request.
Such as top speed limiter removal, raising the rev-limiter, etc...

I would never expect Steve to give away any secrets discovered by his own toil, but I also don't think it's out of line to ask the yes-or-no question of "is the timing altered in anyway?".

From all the things I've read about Steve's work with the C10, it would be silly to think & probably slightly offensive to him if one didn't expect him to experiment with the C14's timing. Be it mechanically or by altering the ignition tables-

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2015, 07:34:02 pm »

I can't speak for Steve, but in my humble opinion, I can't imagine him sharing his formula
in detail with his competitors

 It's OK GG, you can speak for me  :beerchug: :beerchug: Steve
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2015, 07:47:15 pm »
^^^^ understandably so. :truce:

But before forking over $300, some of the masses(such as myself) may want to know exactly what changes are being made and what exactly can be accommodated per request.
Such as top speed limiter removal, raising the rev-limiter, etc...

I would never expect Steve to give away any secrets discovered by his own toil, but I also don't think it's out of line to ask the yes-or-no question of "is the timing altered in anyway?".

From all the things I've read about Steve's work with the C10, it would be silly to think & probably slightly offensive to him if one didn't expect him to experiment with the C14's timing. Be it mechanically or by altering the ignition tables-

  If this was a real concern to "the masses" the "masses would be tuning their own bikes.

 Guys spend 3-500.00 to put a slip on on the bike. It accomplishes what?  A couple HP, losing 15 # and some more noise? Yet I'm going to  have to give away the farm for something that will make the most significant difference in the way the bike runs that anyone will ever put on their bike and cost 300.00?  And so what if I say "i altered this, I altered that... "you don't know how much, I could change one cell on the whole table and it qualifies as "altered", correct?

  So here I am, I bought the equipment, I did the work, you see the proof. If you would like to buy the rights to it, contact me and we'll work it out. Otherwise maybe let "the masses" ride on it and see if they are really questioning what I did... or if they're just riding with a big smile on thier faces and not thinking about it at all.  ;) Steve
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Offline WandeRoam

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2015, 08:13:00 pm »
I'm new to the Concours with a 2015 that feels pretty good but I have nothing to compare to. Is the factory map going to be the same for all years, or have they stepped it up with the new models?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2015, 08:16:32 pm »
I'm new to the Concours with a 2015 that feels pretty good but I have nothing to compare to. Is the factory map going to be the same for all years, or have they stepped it up with the new models?

  yours utilizes 02 sensors that were not previously used on the US models. I'd have to see the tables, but based on what I have seen it's probably the same as the others. Steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2015, 08:33:39 pm »
Looks nice Steve!
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Offline CW

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2015, 08:48:50 pm »
I must be reading it wrong: looks like the differences are pretty nominal until 7,000 RPMs or so.
Up until 7,000, the red and blue lines look fairly similar.

What am I missing?
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Offline Unclefacts

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2015, 09:18:09 pm »
I'm new to the Concours with a 2015 that feels pretty good but I have nothing to compare to. Is the factory map going to be the same for all years, or have they stepped it up with the new models?

  yours utilizes 02 sensors that were not previously used on the US models. I'd have to see the tables, but based on what I have seen it's probably the same as the others. Steve

I have a '15 as well Steve, will your ecu flash work for us with the 02 sensors, or are we looking at something in the future from ya?

Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 09:21:18 pm »
I say, I say boy... You'll get what you get and like it!!!
I am the chicken-hawk. :rotflmao:

Yes and no to your last post Steve...
To some, changing one cell could be considered "altered" I suppose.. but you know that's not what I asked.
And whether you tell someone what you've changed or how much you've changed it may indeed matter to someone that has access to a KDS. Maybe like a dealer doing warranty work?  :o

If someone is willing and happy to pay you for your services and they want to know some of the "in's-n-out's" of what you actually do, is that offensive to you?
I certainly don't expect you to give me, or anyone else for that matter, specific downloadable map files... all the while telling us where the ignition timing is set at 6275rpms in 3rd gear at 42% throttle...  ::)
However, to simply say to potential customers "It's a secret, pay me, go ride it, you'll like it"... well, please don't take this the wrong way, to me just seems a little off-putting for some reason. I don't know-
Doesn't mean that what you say isn't true, but I could see how fellow enthusiasts would take it as you being unnecessarily guarded and not completely forthcoming.

I hope you know that none of my questions were/are intended to pry some proprietary goods from your moly-lube covered fingers...
I guess I'd just like to think I'm nominally mechanically inclined and something like your ecu "reflash"(if that's what you're even calling it) makes me wonder what changes you're actually making in order to achieve the noticeable differences your graphs show. In no way are my questions designed to copy what you've done and then undercut you. Makes me think of Mr. Guhl right now for some reason...

I've spent plenty of my own hours dyno-tuning motorcycles and although it's not rocket science, there are surely nuances.
Something you obviously know all about-

You not answering my question is all the answer I need.

Glad you stepped up, began tuning, and hopefully cracked the C14.
Good luck with this new endeavour.
Please let us know when it's available to the "masses" & where to send our $300.
I suppose we'll get what we get and like it-  :beerchug:

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 09:41:47 pm »
 Laketrax, seriously, that's unnecessarily offensive.  Just because I'm not posting specifics doesn't mean the work hasn't been done, or that my attitude is "you get what you get" . Let's get real... I don't know how the computer I'm typing this on is built, but it doesn'tt stop me from using and enjoying it. Knowing the specifics of how something works doesn't hve much to do with enjoying the fact that it works.

 I owe you nothing as to the specifics of my mapping, although others will tell you I have been very forthcoming with them- simply because I chose to, and unlike you they didn't try to badger me into disclosure.

 Keep your 300.00, I don't need it.  Steve
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 09:48:33 pm »
I must be reading it wrong: looks like the differences are pretty nominal until 7,000 RPMs or so.
Up until 7,000, the red and blue lines look fairly similar.

What am I missing?

 Might look that way, specifically looking on a HP curves at low rpm doesn't look like much is going on. Switch to the TQ curve in that case.  Honestly, I didn't do any of this work for the HP peak gains, they are actually surprising to me, but I did do this work to improve the lower rpm power, and there really is a significant difference there. Again, rideability trumps the dyno chart. Steve
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Offline connie and me

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2015, 09:50:58 pm »
Steve, what does the A/F look like?  I also hope this info is not super top secret...
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Offline danodemotoman

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2015, 10:08:18 pm »
 Maybe just Maybe the stock low rpm torque (lack) issue now resolved will influence me to get a C14?
 The dyno chart would not make the decision as I am not sure how to read the torque increase and I don't need the extra hp but WANT the extra torque. Recent ride impressions by others on this subject bike influences me.
 The several things that I have done to my last three C10's derived and purchased from SISF have provided that extra torque. Every time.
 Additionally the support I received from Steve when I was broke down in FL last Oct showed me the trust in him is well deserved as well as earned.