Author Topic: Dyno Charts Are In  (Read 69752 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2015, 10:31:09 pm »
Steve, what does the A/F look like?  I also hope this info is not super top secret...
[/  quote]

 where do you want the reading from, pre or post cat? steve
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Offline SWOJO95

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2015, 11:02:28 pm »
I suppose Pre-cat would be more accurate but I doubt it changes that much from post-Cat, at least that has been my experience with my automobiles. I was sure that you logged A/F during your tuning, I was just curious. A comparison to stock would also be interesting.  I will say that the dyno plot looks good, but what is selling me are the actual reviews posted by those that have experienced it, as I hold much more value in that.

So, as long as I am rambling, does your tune yield better fuel mpg than the ECO mode, because that would be awesome as I am always forgetting to reset that after I stop when I am travelling the super slab.

Offline noodle

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2015, 11:03:48 pm »
Excellent work Steve. Thank you for your efforts! Count me in ASAP!

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2015, 11:44:25 pm »
I suppose Pre-cat would be more accurate but I doubt it changes that much from post-Cat, at least that has been my experience with my automobiles. I was sure that you logged A/F during your tuning, I was just curious. A comparison to stock would also be interesting.  I will say that the dyno plot looks good, but what is selling me are the actual reviews posted by those that have experienced it, as I hold much more value in that.

So, as long as I am rambling, does your tune yield better fuel mpg than the ECO mode, because that would be awesome as I am always forgetting to reset that after I stop when I am travelling the super slab.

 13:1 pre-cat. that's recorded accurately with the wb02 . Unfortunately I can't post that onto the dyno charts. Very linear though.

 fuel economy does equal the eco settings as long as throttle is kept to 15% or less, which is actually easy to do. on my trip to the wolf last week, loaded down with camping gear and running 80ish (+ / -) it averaged right about 45mpg actual, not by the on board computer. 70 mph on same ride yielded a couple tanks of 48 mpg avg.  This is a huge increase for this bike, as when I first got it I was getting 39.xx in ECO mode on the same type rides.
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Offline SWOJO95

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2015, 12:20:59 am »
I suppose Pre-cat would be more accurate but I doubt it changes that much from post-Cat, at least that has been my experience with my automobiles. I was sure that you logged A/F during your tuning, I was just curious. A comparison to stock would also be interesting.  I will say that the dyno plot looks good, but what is selling me are the actual reviews posted by those that have experienced it, as I hold much more value in that.

So, as long as I am rambling, does your tune yield better fuel mpg than the ECO mode, because that would be awesome as I am always forgetting to reset that after I stop when I am travelling the super slab.

 13:1 pre-cat. that's recorded accurately with the wb02 . Unfortunately I can't post that onto the dyno charts. Very linear though.

 fuel economy does equal the eco settings as long as throttle is kept to 15% or less, which is actually easy to do. on my trip to the wolf last week, loaded down with camping gear and running 80ish (+ / -) it averaged right about 45mpg actual, not by the on board computer. 70 mph on same ride yielded a couple tanks of 48 mpg avg.  This is a huge increase for this bike, as when I first got it I was getting 39.xx in ECO mode on the same type rides.

Flat is good.  I can say I have never averaged 48 mpg, pretty consistent in the 41/42 range, with the occasional 43/44, and that is in ECO mode. Looks promising, I imagine this will pretty much make ECO mode useless. I can't wait to hear more customer reviews, which I imagine should be coming soon.  We have a long winter up here, so I will take advantage of the down time to get this done.

Offline CW

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2015, 12:56:36 am »
I must be reading it wrong: looks like the differences are pretty nominal until 7,000 RPMs or so.
Up until 7,000, the red and blue lines look fairly similar.

What am I missing?

 Might look that way, specifically looking on a HP curves at low rpm doesn't look like much is going on. Switch to the TQ curve in that case.  Honestly, I didn't do any of this work for the HP peak gains, they are actually surprising to me, but I did do this work to improve the lower rpm power, and there really is a significant difference there. Again, rideability trumps the dyno chart. Steve

I can understand that rideability would trump Dyna charts. But I'm still puzzled about why all the excitement over a tune that yields 2 lbs./ft. increase in max torque. Seems like  2 lbs./ft. is not noticeable. (the increase at lower rpms looks like maybe 4-5 ft./lbs. - maybe that's more noticeable?)
Obviously I do not know how to read whatever it is that excites everyone.

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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2015, 01:14:51 am »
I must be reading it wrong: looks like the differences are pretty nominal until 7,000 RPMs or so.
Up until 7,000, the red and blue lines look fairly similar.

What am I missing?

 Might look that way, specifically looking on a HP curves at low rpm doesn't look like much is going on. Switch to the TQ curve in that case.  Honestly, I didn't do any of this work for the HP peak gains, they are actually surprising to me, but I did do this work to improve the lower rpm power, and there really is a significant difference there. Again, rideability trumps the dyno chart. Steve

I can understand that rideability would trump Dyna charts. But I'm still puzzled about why all the excitement over a tune that yields 2 lbs./ft. increase in max torque. Seems like  2 lbs./ft. is not noticeable. (the increase at lower rpms looks like maybe 4-5 ft./lbs. - maybe that's more noticeable?)
Obviously I do not know how to read whatever it is that excites everyone.

 I hate being dumb :-(.

Chet, sometimes looking at a dyno chart is like a layman looking at a X-ray or someone who is not artistic (me ) looking at a very expensive painting  and wondering what others see so special . I can assure you that those dyno charts are very impressive.  That much of a gain in HP and torque without bolting on a pile of money in parts is very impressive, as a matter of fact- pretty much unheard of. I am one of those people who piled on thousands of $$$ in parts to get my bike to 'haul A$$ and I WAS happy until Steve's stock bike with his new flash out pulled my bike, over and over again -down low  where you and ride. The down low pulling power is impressive, very impressive. That part is not that obvious to many people looking at dyno charts but to others-WOW! 
Great job Steve. You have done well. :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:
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Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2015, 01:45:00 am »
.........

I would never expect Steve to give away any secrets discovered by his own toil, but I also don't think it's out of line to ask the yes-or-no question of "is the timing altered in anyway?".

.........

Will always stand by my words...
Really don't care if Cap'n can edit them within 30 days or not. ;D

Sorry if I hit the nail on the head. Sincerely never intended to-

I've seen titled threads on here in the last few months asking general/specific/"masses" type C14 questions...

Guess nobody cares about my C14's MPG, throttle twitchy-ness, engine-braking characteristics, etc...  :motonoises:

Hopefully we can meet in GA next June & both look at it this way...

"Sure beats stripped phillips-head screws and fuel in our hands-"
 

Offline checkedout

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2015, 10:23:38 am »
Steve great job on the tune, will be looking forward to getting the re flash.   Quick question, with this work with a k/n and a slip on. Also what is the altitude. Will changes have to be made when riding in the mountains IE 8-9000 feet.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2015, 11:58:33 am »
Steve great job on the tune, will be looking forward to getting the re flash.   Quick question, with this work with a k/n and a slip on. Also what is the altitude. Will changes have to be made when riding in the mountains IE 8-9000 feet.

  It will work with the k&n and a slipon, but I think I'll make some very minor changes to the fueling for the slipon map so it's better suited. It will be minor.

  As far as altitude adjustment - again, there's misconceptions. The tune is to the base tables. the ECU is constantly monitoring the actual ambient conditions, and adjusting accordingly. This is how the bike is set up now, and of course you can ride all over the country with no problems... my tuning doesn't change that. I'm at sea level, and the base fuel table is considerably leaner than the pig - rich stock table was. That will translate to better high altitude operation in the same manner as it's translated to better sea level operation .
   
   I think folks need to remember that we're dealing with EFI / DFI here, not old school carburetors. Infinite tuneability, measured in milliseconds. Seriously cool stuff! HTH, Steve
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Offline C14lvr

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2015, 12:06:13 pm »
Looking forward to your release and your YouTube video, Steve.
This is cool...
Bob
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Offline rogracer

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2015, 12:18:59 pm »
Steve..great stuff. This may be causing some confusion to the readers...and maybe I just missed it....but im guessing the base curve is actually for a bike with the Guhl reflash and that is why the low end torque increase is not that great. Looking at older truely stock dynos it would appear that the low end is greatly improved.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2015, 12:59:25 pm »
Steve..great stuff. This may be causing some confusion to the readers...and maybe I just missed it....but im guessing the base curve is actually for a bike with the Guhl reflash and that is why the low end torque increase is not that great. Looking at older truely stock dynos it would appear that the low end is greatly improved.

 No, the base stock curve was my bike, same day same dyno within minutes of the other pull. The base curve was dead stock, and to be honest looked better on the dyno than the bike felt. In the real world,  light throttle / low rpms it was really flat, and it felt like it had to "build up" the power. you would really have to open the throttle wide to get what you see on the chart. Who rides like that - giving WOT at 3k to accelerate briskly? Yet when you do a dyno run, that's what it is - WOT at low rpms. So again, this is where a dyno doesn't tell the tale... My tune is very responsive to the throttle. Smooth and linear. give it a little throttle, get a corresponding amount of power... not a hesitation or flatness like stock. but since this is all NOT WOT it doesn't show on the chart.

    And also, I'm not calling BS on anyone's charts, but when looking at the guhl chart it does look like there was a massive power gain iaround 3.5k. So I went to Google images, and pulled up all the concours 14 dyno charts I could find, and studied them. it seems all of them have about the same power in stock form as mine does in stock form. It's almost like the one Guhl used was sick in stock form. I'm not making an accusation here, not at all... but of you look for yourself, you can see what I mean. and if you look closely mine had about 85# TQ @ 3500... insignificant? If the charts are all that a person uses to decide what tune they want, I welcome you to look closely at all the other charts out there.

    Further, let me say this about low rpm power gains on this bike... from a tuner's perspective, that was "low hanging fruit" I had all the low end power dialed in within a couple days. It's simple - get the secondaries opening and out of the way sooner. What I probably did different than what has been done is that I'm still using the secondaries as a tuning devise at much lower throttle settings, not just whacking them open and calling it good. I also did MASSIVE work in the lower rpm / light throttle area to maximize fuel economy. You can't see that on the chart. but it's there when you ride the bike.

  What's getting lost in all this discussion is that I tuned the bike, not the dyno chart. You aren't going to ride a dyno chart! The chart shows you nothing about real world riding manners, economy, response to light inputs, etc. I am welcoming all comparisons of my tune against everything else out there when guys start riding on it and giving feedback. At that point, the real world experience will take over, and all the speculation will fade away.  ;) Steve
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Offline Speedy

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2015, 01:46:02 pm »
Unless you're racing for a living (anybody here......?), the only dyno that matters is the butt dyno.  I can't recall if my girl has ever seen WOT, I suspect not.  So how she performs between 5%-80% throttle is what I care about.  So, I'm looking forward to hearing what some of our more experienced (fast but non-racer types) think of Steve's reflash efforts.  The couple I've seen so far tell a great story.

Also, give the guy a break.  If you're riding a $7-$13k bike and you are fretting about possibly not being 1,000% satisfied with a $300 investment and you're expecting it to cure every possible thing you think is wrong with this bike, you have bigger issues (please note, I suspect it will not improve tire life, probably just the opposite...).  Make your decision based on whatever info available that you feel is most important and live with it.  I'm just sayin'...if you think you can do better, have at it!
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Offline Rock

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2015, 03:14:38 pm »
As a non-technical type guy I totally get what Steve is saying. Save your shekels and get his flash. I totally hear what Steve is saying.

I'm putting a few shekels away for this in spring. I'm a new C14 rider (coming from a C10) and I think the 14 is a jet! Sounds like Steve's flash will make my jet so much more all around capable

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Offline Sparkie

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2015, 03:42:30 pm »
I don't even own a C14 yet but this sounds like something I would want.  One question... Have you checked to see how this will work with some of the various aftermarket pipes.  I for one can't stand the looks of the stocker.  I know lots of people here feel the same, and change pipes quickly.  Just curious. Looks like nice work too!
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Offline sininja

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2015, 03:58:43 pm »
Availability date yet? 

Offline rogracer

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2015, 04:01:05 pm »
Interesting observations about the stock dyno curves Steve. Does make you wonder about what Guhl has published.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2015, 04:12:29 pm »
Interesting observations about the stock dyno curves Steve. Does make you wonder about what Guhl has published.

  Yes, but to everyone PLEASE don't misconstrue that I'm calling BS, I'm not. I'm sure at some point someone will call bs on my charts - but they're not.

  As far as Guhl is concerned, I looked at his work as the benchmark I would have to exceed, and I respect the fact that he went out on a limb with his own time / money / talent to provide a product that has surely satisfied many c-14 owners. So now we are in competition, I guess. Don is a race guy, I'm a street - sport tourer guy. We may have different views about what is important. I'm sure we've both done our best work, and  the marketplace will decide  which of us was closer to the mark. Let's remember that when competition exists, the consumer is the winner... that's y'all  ;) ;) ;) ;) Steve
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Offline CW

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2015, 05:56:01 pm »
I think I'm finally beginning to understand. Sounds like I just might need to get on the order list.
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Offline free2ride

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2015, 06:10:44 pm »
I'm ready to go on the order list also.  Sounds like a great improvement to a bike that is already awesome.  Thanks Steve.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2015, 06:24:01 pm »
 I'm taking in some limited ECU's right now just to get the entirety of the procedure up and running. These guys are instructed to report their findings honestly to the forum. Let's see some feedback before I open the floodgates (because that's what it's looking like, based on pm's and emails  :-\ ) Steve
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Offline C14 Rider

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2015, 06:45:01 pm »
Steve....at this rate, you will be able to retire within 6 months and move to a sunny climate. Oh wait, you are already there.. ;)

Offline JimH_PA

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2015, 06:56:27 pm »
Congrats Steve!  Nice that it came out even better then you thought (Dyno wise) and has way better down low drivability!  Can't wait to here the stories.  Take care.....
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Offline rogracer

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2015, 08:16:57 pm »
Points well taken Steve. Im wondering if Guhl did their dyno pulls in a lower gear...are the secondary throttle maps gear dependent?