Author Topic: Dyno Charts Are In  (Read 69749 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #500 on: February 05, 2016, 12:09:22 pm »
   Yes, the reality trumps theory thing raises it's ugly head again . I initially felt the same was as Colt45 so my first few 2015 flashes only had my fuel table for the higher throttle settings, and I figured the 02 sensors would do a great job at correcting the cruise rpm's. After various field reports I just disabled the 02 sensors and loaded my fuel maps. You have seen the favorable comments. BTW the 2015-up fuel tables are very rich, I suppose the idea is let the table have all the fuel and let the 02 sensors trim it. The problem might be that motorcycles are often used as performance vehicles and typical throttle input is constantly sweeping up and down the rpm range. during this type of operation it would be difficult if not impossible for the ECU to gain closed loop. so then you're left with an overly rich base map killing the fuel economy.

    As far as the 02 sensors in the aftermarket exhaust... the 2 stock sensors are in front of the cats. There are 2 because at that point the exhaust is split and each sensor supports only 2 cylinders. It's NOT the before / after cat we see in automobiles.  And the only reason Area P tells a customer to go the dynojet for an optimizer is because maybe they don't know what can be done during a flash, and I guess they figure if you're wanting to put a pipe on you must know how to tune, which I find very naive. BTW spions have no effect on whether or not you remove the 02 sensors from the stock headpipes. From what I've read in the past few days, the 02 optimizer hasn't been released yet. Steve

   
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Offline gPink

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #501 on: February 05, 2016, 12:24:05 pm »
A bit tongue in cheek here but is it possible that  the factory map may be rich in order to pass enough fuel to let the cat burn hot enough to burn the excess fuel caused by the rich map?  ;D

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #502 on: February 05, 2016, 12:32:34 pm »
A bit tongue in cheek here but is it possible that  the factory map may be rich in order to pass enough fuel to let the cat burn hot enough to burn the excess fuel caused by the rich map?  ;D

  I know your kidding but the main reason for cat meltdown is excess richness burning in the cats to extreme temps. Steve
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Offline Heel2d

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #503 on: February 05, 2016, 03:06:05 pm »
So essentially all I need to do is install the slip on of my choice while my ECU is being flashed w/O2 sensor elimination by Steve, leave the sensors themselves alone, put her back together and I'll be good to go?

By the way I appreciate everyone's patience with my lack of knowledge. I spent my professional career in ICUs and ORs monitoring cardiac hemodynamics and even some intracranial pressure monitoring but this stuff is greek to me.
2015 Green C-14         Current Garage
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Offline Not So Wild Turkey

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #504 on: February 05, 2016, 03:30:35 pm »
OK so it took me forever to get some ride time post decel map.  Shoot me I still work for a living.  I have to say that with the addition of the decel it is now all that I could have asked for.  A very smooth transition from on to of but still considerable decel when wanted.  Still have the torque and power of the primary map but for me more controllable.  Mileage I still have no clue as I can't make myself ride in a normal fashion.  Not sure the new will ever wear off enough for me to do a mileage evaluation.  I'm truly amazed that there was this much in the bike that could be unleashed.  I am Sooooo happy I can't hardly stand it.  Well that's my story and it aint likely to change.  Ride safe
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #505 on: February 05, 2016, 05:35:23 pm »
So essentially all I need to do is install the slip on of my choice while my ECU is being flashed w/O2 sensor elimination by Steve, leave the sensors themselves alone, put her back together and I'll be good to go?

By the way I appreciate everyone's patience with my lack of knowledge. I spent my professional career in ICUs and ORs monitoring cardiac hemodynamics and even some intracranial pressure monitoring but this stuff is greek to me.

  Yes, pick the slipon you want, send me the ECU, ride the newfound power.

  And sadly I learned about intracranial pressure monitoring when my 22 year old nephew / godson passed away from an avm. I could have done without that lesson. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
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Offline henerythe8th

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #506 on: February 05, 2016, 05:57:02 pm »
So essentially all I need to do is install the slip on of my choice while my ECU is being flashed w/O2 sensor elimination by Steve, leave the sensors themselves alone, put her back together and I'll be good to go?

By the way I appreciate everyone's patience with my lack of knowledge. I spent my professional career in ICUs and ORs monitoring cardiac hemodynamics and even some intracranial pressure monitoring but this stuff is greek to me.

  Yes, pick the slipon you want, send me the ECU, ride the newfound power.

  And sadly I learned about intracranial pressure monitoring when my 22 year old nephew / godson passed away from an avm. I could have done without that lesson. Steve

May he rest in peace...
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Offline Heel2d

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #507 on: February 05, 2016, 06:28:18 pm »
Very sorry to hear about your nephew Steve. Life can be so hectic we lose sight of how fragile and temporary it can be. Our only defense is to live everyday as if its our last and never leave things undone or important things unsaid.

If the weather cooperates I'll finish break-in over the next week or 10 days and then I'll make arrangements with you to do my flash while I install the can and a few other farkels I've collected.

Thanks again for the advice and again I'm sorry for your loss.
2015 Green C-14         Current Garage
1998 Green ZX-9R (2 wheel sport bike)
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Offline Brooke_Benfield_OR

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #508 on: February 05, 2016, 06:30:59 pm »
A bit tongue in cheek here but is it possible that  the factory map may be rich in order to pass enough fuel to let the cat burn hot enough to burn the excess fuel caused by the rich map?  ;D

Not so far fetched as you may think.

There is a guy named Mike Holler who used to have a forum called MPGResearch. He was able to tweak some incredible fuel economy from modern cars, like 83 MPG from a 2008 Hyundai Sonata with a 2.4L 4 cylinder engine. OK, now to the point; He had a chance to talk at length with an engineer from Siemens who was involved with automobile control systems. As Mike attempted to dig deeper the engineer kept saying "it's all about controlling the temperature of the catalytic converter". Of course, this refers to a setup where there are before cat/after cat sensors unlike the C14.

Our modern cars definitely waste fuel in order to keep the catalytic converter operating at peak efficiency. I would be surprised if Kawasaki is not doing the same thing to some extent as well.
Brooke Benfield  2013 FJR1300  COG #2185

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #509 on: February 05, 2016, 06:56:54 pm »
Brooke, its funny when you mention running "rich". I've always lived at  a higher elevation, and leaner jetting was  a most do  for any engine you deal with. Up to and including lawnmowers.

You'd set up a nice cr80 for  a kid, and his father would ask what jets you used for future reference. If he put two and two together, he often realized you used a leaner jet and was angry. Accusing you of sabotaging his dopey kids riding career because you did so.

I've also seen adults who would order this device, despite the fact you could prove their bike was running rich, not lean.  And yes, it always helped, and YOU were personally against them when you mentioned it was not the right product for them. MORE fuel is always MORE better.

 http://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html

I hoped the Volkswagon situation would have shown that emissions testing is not about rich or lean, its about passing the test.

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Offline Brooke_Benfield_OR

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #510 on: February 05, 2016, 07:13:34 pm »
rcannon409;

Mike Holler used trickery like the boosterplug but he was pursuing a different goal, so the ECU was told the temperature was warmer than actual. This was just one of many things he did.
Brooke Benfield  2013 FJR1300  COG #2185

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #511 on: February 08, 2016, 08:53:46 pm »
Brooke, what else did he do?  I though thought his boosterplug was interesting...Not what I was looking for, or needed, but interesting.
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Offline Colt45

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #512 on: February 09, 2016, 01:00:35 am »
   Yes, the reality trumps theory thing raises it's ugly head again . I initially felt the same was as Colt45 so my first few 2015 flashes only had my fuel table for the higher throttle settings, and I figured the 02 sensors would do a great job at correcting the cruise rpm's. After various field reports I just disabled the 02 sensors and loaded my fuel maps. You have seen the favorable comments. ...................

Well, .... maybe the O2 sensors are too slow to react effectively at 4k+ RPM.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My '09 doesn't have an O2 sensor, so I don't know which type BigK put in the later C14s.  To meet emissions, a narrow band is normally all that's required, but they are only good at 14.7: +/- a little. 
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Offline Brooke_Benfield_OR

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #513 on: February 09, 2016, 05:53:45 pm »
Brooke, what else did he do?  I though thought his boosterplug was interesting...Not what I was looking for, or needed, but interesting.

rcannon409;

He had a whole bag of tricks he could do. I don't know just exactly which ones he used on the Sonata but the following are items that were discussed on MPGresearch:

He cut grooves into metal intake manifold tracts (called them PowrLynz) which created a turbulence to prevent fuel from wetting them and was able to gain more airflow at low/mid RPM.

He ran an HHO system to create supplemental hydrogen which requires the timing to be retarded (hydrogen burns so quick peak cylinder pressures arrive too soon).

I already mentioned the intake air temperature sensor being fudged to report warmer temperatures.

He offset the feedback from the O2 sensor(s) to tell the ECU the engine was running too rich.

This is not a complete list but what I can remember off the top of my head. We're (mostly me) are pulling this thread away from the subject, I'd be happy to continue with private e-mail or PM's if this forum has that feature.
Brooke Benfield  2013 FJR1300  COG #2185

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #514 on: February 09, 2016, 06:11:08 pm »
Some of that is appropriate to my tuning situation right now. I can't tune until the ambient temps are above 75 or so... I even prefer more... to be sure my base map isn't influenced by the richness the ECU adds for cold ambient temps. Steve
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Offline Colt45

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #515 on: February 09, 2016, 11:22:18 pm »
A bit tongue in cheek here but is it possible that  the factory map may be rich in order to pass enough fuel to let the cat burn hot enough to burn the excess fuel caused by the rich map?  ;D

i remember a demo where a dude blew compressed air on a junkyard cat and part of it glowed red.  It takes very little hydrocarbon to heat up a cat. 

rich A/F ratios mostly cool the head and piston and add an extra margin against detonation. 
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Offline Benny

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #516 on: October 02, 2018, 02:09:08 pm »
Reviving and old thread here as my first post here on C.O.G. as I just got done reading the whole thing.  Wow Steve, lots of raving reviews on your tune and character... I cannot wait to do business with you.  I really enjoyed your "dissertation" on the motor differences between the concours and the ZX14 as well as your breakdown of the usability of power in this sport tourer.  Great stuff and I thoroughly enjoyed the read.
I don't want to pull any of these typical annoying post habits such as asking a question that's clearly already been answered in the thread, but I'm human and accidents happen.  Without further ado, here's my question...
Can your tune be loaded on the ECO button instead so that the regular stock tune would be normal and it would switch over to yours when ECO is activated? 
Getting rid of the useless stock ECO map altogether is no bother, and I think it would be a cool trick to play on the wife. "I don't know what your complaining about dear, its in Eco mode for cryin out loud!". Not only that, but then one could really A/B compare on the fly the stock vs Shoodaben... Which I think would be super fun.  Just wondering if this is a possible  configuration.  Thanks in advance if I get a reply.  Happy to be here as a new COG guest and looking forward to sponging up info and meeting great people.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #517 on: October 02, 2018, 03:49:27 pm »
Reviving and old thread here as my first post here on C.O.G. as I just got done reading the whole thing.  Wow Steve, lots of raving reviews on your tune and character... I cannot wait to do business with you.  I really enjoyed your "dissertation" on the motor differences between the concours and the ZX14 as well as your breakdown of the usability of power in this sport tourer.  Great stuff and I thoroughly enjoyed the read.
I don't want to pull any of these typical annoying post habits such as asking a question that's clearly already been answered in the thread, but I'm human and accidents happen.  Without further ado, here's my question...
Can your tune be loaded on the ECO button instead so that the regular stock tune would be normal and it would switch over to yours when ECO is activated? 
Getting rid of the useless stock ECO map altogether is no bother, and I think it would be a cool trick to play on the wife. "I don't know what your complaining about dear, its in Eco mode for cryin out loud!". Not only that, but then one could really A/B compare on the fly the stock vs Shoodaben... Which I think would be super fun.  Just wondering if this is a possible  configuration.  Thanks in advance if I get a reply.  Happy to be here as a new COG guest and looking forward to sponging up info and meeting great people.

  it's possible, and I have been asked versions of this before. Really, it's an overkill / impractical, in fact it's best to replace the stock map, NOT the ECO map, because IMO the ECO map is the better of the 2, for what it's intended to do.

  I might take a look back at this thread a bit, and see where my opinions may have changed since that time. I've certainly still learned  more and have better ecu access and better tools since then. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #518 on: October 02, 2018, 08:39:51 pm »
A bit tongue in cheek here but is it possible that  the factory map may be rich in order to pass enough fuel to let the cat burn hot enough to burn the excess fuel caused by the rich map?  ;D


i remember a demo where a dude blew compressed air on a junkyard cat and part of it glowed red.  It takes very little hydrocarbon to heat up a cat. 

rich A/F ratios mostly cool the head and piston and add an extra margin against detonation.


how dare you treat an innocent kitty like that......


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Offline Benny

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Re: Dyno Charts Are In
« Reply #519 on: October 03, 2018, 07:21:57 am »
LMSFAO!  Bubs looks like he needs a concours