Author Topic: ECU Flash Questions  (Read 1410 times)

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Offline Nodesurfer

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ECU Flash Questions
« on: November 07, 2017, 01:17:52 pm »
I've read about Steve's flash, Ivan's, Guhl's, etc.  I am interested to know if anybody has gone the Schnitz Racing route and gotten their C-14 done with his flash, and what you think about it.

It would seem to me that Steve's has the most to offer, but I'm also budget-minded and it sounds like the "Schnitz is the shitz", according to a couple of reviews I've read. After reading Steve's info, I'm not sure I like the idea of raising the rev limiter to 11,000. That was about the only negative I saw.

Anybody?

https://store.schnitzracing.com/schnitz-ecu-reflash-kawasaki-zzr-1400-concours-14-08-17/

Offline EZ

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 01:27:37 pm »
Well, the first line of mod on the link you provided says "Increased Rev Limiter to 11,000RPM (+500rpm from stock)"  ??
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 05:54:22 pm »
The only rev limit change that Steve recommends as far as I know is with the Full Area P exhaust. Stock ECU redline is 10k but the Area P exhaust continues to make power to 10,450 RPM not 11k. I know the Tach shows 10.5k but that's pure marketing.
  I've had the Guhl flash and now 3 of Steve's. I'm usually not a "Happy camper" unless I've tried pretty much everything available but I like what I now have enough that I've stopped looking. Give Steve's flash a try and I'm pretty much sure if you genuinely don't like it he'll return it back to stock with a full refund. He has publicly made this offer here on the forum.
  Regardless of what the electronic redline is set at you still control it with your right hand. The C14 is not an engine I'd recommend bouncing off the rev limiter on a regular basis. There is a huge rotating mass hanging off the end of the cam and Steve has a great understanding of what that means.
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 05:58:46 pm »
One other comment.
  Reflashing for racing use is much different than for controllable smooth street use. Are you a racer or street rider.?
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Offline Akumu

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 07:32:46 pm »
That's a 'canned' flash, much like Woolich or ECU Unleashed flash. They're not tuned for s***, and the idiosyncrasies of the bike aren't addressed at all. It's one instance of getting what you pay for.

You're best bet is Steve's or Ivan's. At least both of them have had the bike on the dyno, done data logging and have gone deeper. (Steve getting the nod by...everyone and his grandmother, while Ivan is the new comer.)

Online gpd323

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 07:41:55 pm »
I had tried a local person here for my C14, he had a map that he loaded onto my ECU. I come to find out all that was done was trick the ECU into thinking it was in 5th gear all the time so the secondary flies would open sooner and he advanced the timing a whole bunch. that was it. $300 bucks!!!!

It felt better than stock for sure but when I got Steve's decell tune from a while back it blew the other tune out of the water in terms of low end, smoothness and even fuel mileage.

I have had 2 different ECU changes (tunes) from Steve and will ask to have mine done once more for his most current tune.

has Steve mentioned anything about his new version?
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Offline strum

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 01:39:56 am »

has Steve mentioned anything about his new version?

Steve has a new version?
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Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 02:32:40 am »
All good replies, and about what I expected. I just got a little excited when I read the review below, posted on the Schnitz site, which sounds like a whole lot of gain for $75. It DOES sound like there's a lot more "goodness" and research packed into Steve's flash. But this fellow sure liked his Schnitz flash.

So nobody here has it then?

 

THE BEST MODIFICATION YOU CAN GET.

Let's get right to the point: The 1400 is fast and now it's like I'm running on rocket fuel.
1=took it to some twisties and she rips out of the corners and doesn't nose dive when you throttle off I to the turns.
2=took it the local drag strip where all us locals race and did the 1/4 mile test. Went easy dropped the clutch at 4000rpms and having the extra room with the Rev limiter raised is great because with the stock flash the limiter hits to quick . Now I can just hold her WOT and tap the clutch and shift. The fuel delivery is so perfect.
3=riding two up should be better because of a 100% perfect deceleration off the throttle. (No more helmet's hitting)
4=in actuality my bike feels like it shed 150lbs.
5=I'll leave this open for future comments THANK YOU RYAN SCHNITZ for your fast service...time to share my experience with Schnitz Racing on the Concours owners group...

Offline jmozg1400

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 02:44:48 am »
First off full disclosure.  This is my first post. 

I just joined yesterday, but to your point no I haven't yet, but I set an appointment with Schnitz Racing last week, but had to cancel due to having the McCruise Cruise Control installed.  I'm going to reschedule once I get my bike back, which should be tomorrow.  I read all the reviews as well and talked to him on the phone at length.  I was sold after the conversation...  I'm about 3 hours away from his place in Indiana.  Weather permitting I'm going to try to set the appointment for this Friday.  I'll be able to let you know after he's finished.  I don't know why your thread digressed into Steve and his thing, which is fine I read that thread, but he's in Florida, and I'm in Ohio so it was a no brainer who to take my bike to. 
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Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 05:46:36 am »
Well, most people just take the ECU and send it to the flasher, not actually GO there and wait for it. Of course that is the ideal, if you can do it.

I will look forward to hearing your impressions.

Offline OKC14

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 01:43:28 pm »
This is just my opinion, but I feel like other tuners have seen the loyal following that Steve has garnered with his work on the C14, and they want a piece of the action.  Whether or not they can crank out a tune that mimics Steve's isn't really the thing, they haven't put the time in on the various iterations of a flash for this bike--they're just popping out what they feel is a close approximation and trying to undercut on price to pick up market share.  I've talked to Steve, he gets the benefits of competition, and... he's a smart businessman as well, so I think he'll be fine.  What we are seeing now is the dogs coming in to pick up the scraps, hoping for a bigger piece of the C14-owner pie. Money talks.

Offline jmozg1400

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 02:00:32 pm »
Well, most people just take the ECU and send it to the flasher, not actually GO there and wait for it. Of course that is the ideal, if you can do it.

I will look forward to hearing your impressions.
What I liked was Schnitz allows you to stand there and watch.  I wanted to do that for no other reason, but to learn more about the process, so that appealed to me as well.
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Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 07:17:22 pm »
While I don't doubt that all of the flashes will result in a dramatic improvement, I have had several exchanges with Steve and after hearing his philosophy and all the time and effort that he has put into his flash, I'm pretty sure that's the way I'm going.

I think I paid $300+ for the Power Commander I had on my 2007 Nomad and I never loaded a map into it that "lit my world on fire". Some made it better, some made it worse, some sucked fuel like it was going out of style, but none made the kind of across the board improvements and refinements that Steve has engineered into his flash, and from all accounts, it delivers the goods. It may be a premium price, but it sounds like it will deliver a lot more bang for the buck than my Power Commander did, and I like the measured approach to not raising the rev limiter, and the fact that he has exhaustively reworked every aspect of the powerband, refining it to be the best it can be.

Now I just need to recover from all the other money I've spent on additions lately and pick a time to be without bike for a week or so.   

Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 01:22:01 am »
Steve doesn't take a week. I sent him my ECU from Sacramento at 10:00 am on a Wednesday and I was reinstalling it at 11:30 Friday morning. 49 hours CA to FL and back.  :great:
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Offline jmozg1400

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 02:05:46 am »
All good replies, and about what I expected. I just got a little excited when I read the review below, posted on the Schnitz site, which sounds like a whole lot of gain for $75. It DOES sound like there's a lot more "goodness" and research packed into Steve's flash. But this fellow sure liked his Schnitz flash.

So nobody here has it then?

 

THE BEST MODIFICATION YOU CAN GET.

Let's get right to the point: The 1400 is fast and now it's like I'm running on rocket fuel.
1=took it to some twisties and she rips out of the corners and doesn't nose dive when you throttle off I to the turns.
2=took it the local drag strip where all us locals race and did the 1/4 mile test. Went easy dropped the clutch at 4000rpms and having the extra room with the Rev limiter raised is great because with the stock flash the limiter hits to quick . Now I can just hold her WOT and tap the clutch and shift. The fuel delivery is so perfect.
3=riding two up should be better because of a 100% perfect deceleration off the throttle. (No more helmet's hitting)
4=in actuality my bike feels like it shed 150lbs.
5=I'll leave this open for future comments THANK YOU RYAN SCHNITZ for your fast service...time to share my experience with Schnitz Racing on the Concours owners group...

I don't know where you saw $75.  On his site his charge is $350 to $500. 
2016 Kaw C14
2008 Kaw C14
1980 Honda CB650

Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 03:08:21 am »
No, it's not. Don't know where you saw THAT, but it's clearly $75.

https://store.schnitzracing.com/schnitz-ecu-reflash-kawasaki-zzr-1400-concours-14-08-17/

Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2017, 03:26:30 am »
If you look at the Dropdown Box $75 is for "No Changes To Fuel Table". When you select from the dropdown the exhaust system you have the price jumps from $200 - $500.
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Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2017, 03:59:38 am »
Yeah, but that's optional. The $75 price includes all the listed changes, which are significant. My Vance & Hines CS One isn't even listed, so what would I choose?

Doesn't matter, after talking with Steve I'm convinced that for me, going with his flash will be the choice. It's more involved, has a lot more built into it, and works with stock exhaust or slip-ons alike.

I just like to make informed decisions. People who got the Schnitz flash seem to be very satisfied with it. As is the case with Steve's and the others.   

Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 04:25:37 am »
Well, the first line of mod on the link you provided says "Increased Rev Limiter to 11,000RPM (+500rpm from stock)"  ??

EZ, that was my point, that I didn't like that part about the Schnitz flash, due to the reasons that Steve states on the Shoodaben page. Bouncing off the rev limiter can be hazardous to the C-14, therefore raising it would definitely be a bad idea. With that said, I enjoy very spirited riding and have managed not to go over 10K on mine yet, and don't plan to. On other bikes I've owned, I've hit the rev limiter many times, sometimes for the hell of it. It's good to know about the VVT module on the C-14 and why you should be wary of it and respect the top end. Keeping the rev limiter where it is makes a lot of sense. What if you miss a gear sometime and whack it to 11K and blow your s*** up? Not good.   :'(

Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 05:55:33 am »
Welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll be happy with Steve's work. I know I am.


But now I'm curious. If a flash has "No Changes To The Fuel Table" what does it have?
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Offline AmphibSailor

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 06:27:08 am »
Welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll be happy with Steve's work. I know I am.


But now I'm curious. If a flash has "No Changes To The Fuel Table" what does it have?

From the link above, looks like $75 will:

Increased Rev Limiter to 11,000RPM (+500rpm from stock)
Top Speed Limiter Removed
High RPM Ignition Timing Retard Removed
Gear Based Fuel Trims Removed from Gears 1-3
Secondary Throttle Blades Open More Aggressively And Stay Open
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Offline EZ

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 09:45:32 am »
Well, the first line of mod on the link you provided says "Increased Rev Limiter to 11,000RPM (+500rpm from stock)"  ??

EZ, that was my point, that I didn't like that part about the Schnitz flash, due to the reasons that Steve states on the Shoodaben page. Bouncing off the rev limiter can be hazardous to the C-14, therefore raising it would definitely be a bad idea. With that said, I enjoy very spirited riding and have managed not to go over 10K on mine yet, and don't plan to. On other bikes I've owned, I've hit the rev limiter many times, sometimes for the hell of it. It's good to know about the VVT module on the C-14 and why you should be wary of it and respect the top end. Keeping the rev limiter where it is makes a lot of sense. What if you miss a gear sometime and whack it to 11K and blow your s*** up? Not good.   :'(

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 12:53:37 pm »
 OK, I'm going to make this post to be purely informational. I received a PM from a person regarding flashing / power commanders / chinese do nothing boxes / etc and I thought I'd try to fill in the blanks.

  1: Before you spend any money find out who the players are. Ebay has all kinds of stuff that does nothing but take your money. Not just for the concours, but all bikes. Jet kits that don't work, electronic boxes that trick the c-14 into thinking it's in 6th gear, etc... waste of time and money.

  2) Power Commanders - These work to override the fuel tables, so you can tailor the fuel needs for higher to WOT fuel needs.  They're fine for drag racing, but on the street they have hesitations in low throttle openings because they only have control in the TPS fuel table, and all low throttle opening work is controlled by the intake pressure table. And again, for the Concours, limited to fuel control. PC's allow the ability to "map share" so you can go to Dynojets site and download a fuel map another person made and uploaded for your application. You are now taking a huge gamble, because I can tell you reputable tuners with great maps don't give them away. So you get what "johnny down the block" made. Good luck with that.

  3) Auto Tune -  auto tune is a huge leap forward for tuning, in that it will take measured a/f ratio's from the WB02 sensor and calculate the amount of change needed to achieve a desired a/f ratio in a given cell on the fuel map. Generally used by concours owners with power commanders. This would be a great help if 1) most folks knew what a/f ratio's to select for the given cell and 2) if it worked on the intake pressure fuel table... which it doesn't.

  4)ECU flashing - the only game in town worth playing. Tuning parameters are changed in the ecu, not over ridden like power commanders do. If there's a problem with flashing it's that it's really not an end - user type product because it requires a lot of time and knowledge to do properly, and the average owner isn't a professional tuner.  So now you're having to pick from the various tuners offering flashes. This is where it gets tricky.

  Let me digress for a minute. Think about your life experiences. Think about your skill level in your job. If you happen to be the best at what you do, and the 23 year old kid who works with you does the same thing as you but doesn't know any of the tricks you know, are you really equal?  Think about dealing with folks who are out to make a buck, or those who take pride in their workmanship. Now apply all that to the flashing world, and you'll start to get the picture. All flashes aren't the same in workmanship or what's achieved.

  Here's a couple things to consider :

 - if a company offers you a selection of fueling options to exactly work with the exhaust on your bike, that's good. If the company offers you a selection of fueling options for exhausts that don't even exist - that's bad. Why? Think about it - how can you build  a proper fuel chart for something that doesn't exist? So now you have to question the rest of their claims, too.

 - raising speed or rpm limiters - only matters if you're racing.  Even if they're raised, it's up to you if you exceed the stock rpm or speed limitation. In other words, it only matters if you intend to exceed 10,000 rpm or 156 mph. Also advising folks to unleash the zx 14 in their c-14 by raising the rpm limiter is irresponsible. The zx14 doesn't have a vvt module to fail; the c-14 does. Excessive rpms and high rpm shifting can cause the vvt module to destroy the locating pin, come out of time and fail. It can take out the top end of the bike with it. We've already seen that here on this forum, in fact I have a vvt module that Matt Needham removed from another members bike after it rendered the bike damaged and inoperable. Kawasaki is aware of the problem.

  - Opening secondaries  Early on, the trick to better performance was to remove the secondary butterflies. This trick, or opening the secondaries sooner via an ECU tune, yield big gains in torque. Anyone making a flash will right off open the secondaries to let the engine breathe. Once you feel that big increase in power, you're going to swear the tuner is god of the concours. But just opening the secondaries excessively has some really negative effects on performance in other ways. Fuel economy, for one. Using the secondaries can help optimize fuel economy and throttle response. There's another BIG disadvantage to just "opening the secondaries", but because I'm not trying to educate the competition, I have to keep that to myself.  ;) Bottom line, secondaries are a very useful tuning tool if you are willing to spend too much time learning how to use them.

  - Ignition timing - Most tuners won't make changes to the ignition timing tables, because you can damage an engine if you don't know what you're doing. OTOH, timing that properly considers cylinder pressure (throttle position ) can really bring out the best in the tune. it will aid in fuel economy, throttle response, and smoothness .

  - How do I get there from here?  - first off, understand that tuners are generally pretty secretive about what they do, especially when they hit on something that works. This is what gives the edge in racing, when in many cases the mechanical parts have to fit a certain criteria, and it's up to the tuner to make it work. There can be different ways of getting to the same place. What matters is the end result, not the road taken to get there.

 - Does the tuner know how you ride?  This is a big one.  Tunes have personalities. Most concours owner, about 95% probably, aren't interested on bumping the tach off the rev limiter and sliding the rear wheel out in a corner. In fact most want to rely on the big inch motor, keep the r's down and run in higher gears, even in the moutains and twisties.  Some don't, but they are the marked minority. So this is where things like engine braking quality and throttle modulation matter. Everyone wants better fuel economy... has the tuner considered that?  Make sure you select a flash based on how you ride, your wants and needs.

 Hopefully this will help anyone reading this to understand what's on in the little black box, and make more educated choices when it's time to spend your hard earned money.

 Steve

   

 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 01:01:12 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 04:04:37 pm »
AmphibSailor,
  My question was rhetorical, thankfully Steve jumped in with his explanation. I'm still curious about one aspect of the "Black Box". I touched on it in my last response to Rolland when I used the XYZ, PFM Radio example.
  Steve, can/will you please help us better understand the special PFM Fuel Cut Table (Pure F Magic) you have worked on our C14's? :))
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Offline BDF

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Re: ECU Flash Questions
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2017, 04:06:51 pm »
I do not believe this statement is correct. A Power Commander uses its own map to alter the injector opening, and so alter the fuel delivered, at all engine speeds. As it is installed between the ECU and the injectors themselves, the manner that the ECU uses to determine fuel delivery has no impact on how or when a Power Commander, or any other similar device would work. Put simply, a Power Commander simply overrides the pulse width, which is the actual control of how much fuel is delivered, because it is located in-between the ECU and the actually electrical control of the injectors.

A quick overview: The ECU uses whatever method (Alpha- N, Speed-density, look-up tables, it does not matter for this usage of a P.C.) to determine the correct amount of fuel to be delivered. It then causes this amount of fuel to be metered out by the injectors by controlling the injector 'open' time. The longer the time the fuel injector is open, the more fuel is delivered; this is really quite simple at the injector's level. What a Power Commander does is to hold its own look- up tables showing how to modify the ECU's injector timing. So again in a simple example, suppose the ECU is calling for the injector to be open 50% of the time at a certain engine speed and throttle opening. The Power Commander takes all three of these parameters and uses its own table to alter the injector open time based on its own internal table. In this simple example, suppose the Power Commander calls for a 10% increase in fuel delivery: it simply takes the 50% injector open time given by the ECU but because it is located between the ECU and the actual injector, it has direct and final control over the injector and increases the open time to 60%. So it makes absolutely no difference what method or parameters the ECU used to arrive at what it is calling for regarding fuel delivered because in Power Commander simply alters the ECU's original command.

I merely point this out because I believe the more information a consumer has, the better a decision that consumer can make, and it is my opinion that the information provided in the section of the post I quoted was incorrect. I would further encourage anyone interested in this subject to do a reasonable amount of research regarding how these various systems work, preferably from sources not engaged in actually trying to sell them. One of the best I have found is the Megasquirt site; that company sells complete engine control units and is 'community supported', meaning individuals actually using the products have come together to publish and share, at no charge, a huge amount of information regarding engine control management. They do not sell anything anyone would normally use on a C-14 and so provide, in my opinion, an outstanding reference site for general reference and learning. They are located here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm#mv

Motorcycles typically use, and the C-14 absolutely does use, alpha- N tuning rather than autos, which typically use speed- density. There are a variety of reasons for this but I only mention it so that the casual reader can ignore the two systems and simply concentrate on alpha- N as it is the only one which applies.

Brian


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  2) Power Commanders - These work to override the fuel tables, so you can tailor the fuel needs for higher to WOT fuel needs.  They're fine for drag racing, but on the street they have hesitations in low throttle openings because they only have control in the TPS fuel table, and all low throttle opening work is controlled by the intake pressure table. And again, for the Concours, limited to fuel control. PC's allow the ability to "map share" so you can go to Dynojets site and download a fuel map another person made and uploaded for your application. You are now taking a huge gamble, because I can tell you reputable tuners with great maps don't give them away. So you get what "johnny down the block" made. Good luck with that.

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 Steve

 
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