Author Topic: First valve adjust observations  (Read 3201 times)

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Offline Gumby

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2017, 03:30:46 am »
As an officer I am going out on a limb posting this, but I would like to say instead of trying to moderate the forum please try to self moderate your posts Rich. 

I am curious why you go to such an extreme to tell Fred to post in the Industry Member section when only a week ago you promoted/advertised his videos in another post NOT in the Industry Member section.

Well, the slave cylinder is in the same place on all the engines, so if you have Fred's videos, you should be able to ascertain how much more plastic needs removed to see it... kinda a dumb answer on my part, but realistically its a simple task, if taken on methodically, and a lot less technical than other issues that may pop up while doing a bleed job and fluid replacement. Which will likely happen, as history has shown here.
I have an 86, so I can't say just how much has to come off, but the improved lower heat baffle surly is one, don't think there is more to it than that.
Unfortunatly this is sounding like the proverbial "half hour job" that may turn into a multi day nightmare at this point, knowing some of the issues that go along with admitting air into the clutch system on this task.
Be bold, jump in and start taking stuff off, be careful to remove all fasteners before trying to force panels to the breaking point...
Best of luck.

Let's stop beating up on each other on the forum and go back to helping each other out doing what we love to do... RIDE!


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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2017, 05:50:20 am »
Quote
Let's stop beating up on each other on the forum and go back to helping each other out doing what we love to do... RIDE!

Exactly!!
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Offline Freddy

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2017, 09:40:55 am »
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.


  Sorry JWH, gotta disagree with you heartily on this one.  I'm a mechanic, not an electrician. I can wire in a wall socket, but I'm not qualified to wire in a fusebox, even if someone says "how hard can it be, it's only a bunch of wires". Well a valve adjustment is like that... if you have to pull the cams and blow the timing or bend a cam going back together, it's gonna really suck. Maybe not as bad as using your tongue to check if a wire is hot, but you get the point.

Steve
 

+1.  The brave and/or ignorant may be blissfully overconfident.  It's no job for the faint of heart or beginners or the inexperienced to undertake due to the accuracy and know-how required to make a success of it.  Being able to change spark plugs in the 1400 is totally unrelated to the skill level needed to change shims with precision.   :beerchug:
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Offline Slambo

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2017, 10:03:45 am »
Didn’t know my original post of encouragement to start this thread would turn into that discussion!  Anyway, been riding motorcycles for 40+ years, riding a C14 for last three and a COG member for about a year.  I love the C14 and enjoy COG.  I have received extremely useful information and/or products from Fred, Steve and MoB, so I thank you all.  Wrapping up my valve adjust, but delayed by Thanksgiving family activities right now.
Hope y’all had a nice Thanksgiving.
Slambo
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Offline Freddy

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2017, 10:57:12 am »
Glad it's going well Slambo.  You're the first I've seen in 10 years report that so many valves were out of spec at any mileage.  Perhaps the robot that assembled it in Japan was in need of a service too. 
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Offline jwh20

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2017, 12:52:20 pm »
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.

  Sorry JWH, gotta disagree with you heartily on this one.  I'm a mechanic, not an electrician. I can wire in a wall socket, but I'm not qualified to wire in a fusebox, even if someone says "how hard can it be, it's only a bunch of wires". Well a valve adjustment is like that... if you have to pull the cams and blow the timing or bend a cam going back together, it's gonna really suck. Maybe not as bad as using your tongue to check if a wire is hot, but you get the point.

Steve
 

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole on my part but the point is still valid.  Each person needs to assess their own mechanical skills when deciding to do a valve adjustment or take it to a shop.  But the amount of work in just getting to the valves is significant compared to the total amount of work involved.  So by the time you have reached the point where you can access the spark plugs, you're well on your way to at least a valve check.

To quote the immortal words of "Dirty" Harry Callahan:

"A man's got to know his limitations."

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2017, 01:26:59 pm »

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole on my part but the point is still valid.  Each person needs to assess their own mechanical skills when deciding to do a valve adjustment or take it to a shop.  But the amount of work in just getting to the valves is significant compared to the total amount of work involved.  So by the time you have reached the point where you can access the spark plugs, you're well on your way to at least a valve check.


  In great part, i agree with you. Taking the plastic off and getting to the plugs is not small feat, and if a guy can do that he's certainly skilled at some level in mechanics. BUT as a guy who has years with the c-10 and it's owners, I still strongly feel when it gets to cams there's a line most won't - and shouldn't cross.

    Now this is not an advertisement, clearly, because it's a c-10 product - but I've offered replacement cams for years. C-10's have pitting issues across the board. Guys wanted a reasonably priced replacement and more low end torque as well, so most c-10 guys really like that idea. But when they come to replacing the cams, most just won't do it, even though they want to. and I've had shop mechanics blow cam timing several times... it seems to really mess people up because they really don't understand the importance of valve to piston timing and interface. So I have a lot of experience talking people through their mistakes, even to the point of making a 20 minute you tube video (zg1000 cam and valve).

  Bottom line, the c-14 isn't an easy bike to work on, and I WISH everyone who owns one could work on their bike effectively, though most can't. If they could, there wouldn't be any unscrupulous shops saying "all the valves are in spec" when they actually never even checked them, but I guess that's the topic for another conversation.

 Steve
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2017, 02:09:30 pm »
I agree that everyone needs to know their limits. But let’s consider that the C-14 valve adjustment procedure while complicated is understandable with the resources that are out there. Someone did a great job, and took the time and effort to detail the entire procedure in a step by step process.  That combined with the references to the service manual will give someone that is not a skilled mechanic the confidence to tackle this specific project.  I think one person in particular that routinely criticizes  Fred’s videos, has not actually ever seen the videos.

So for Steve’s example of not being qualified to work on an electrical panel, consider if he was only working on one specific panel and someone showed every step of the procedure, he could follow along and perhaps even do a better job than someone doing it without the guidance of another professional.

Sure there are lots of ways to get out of your comfort zone, or not have the skills and experience to know when you are not torquing something properly, or assembling thing in the wrong order, or missing key steps. If you use the videos as a crutch for lack of experience, you need to keep in mind that you need to follow those steps carefully.

I am not a mechanic, I’m a Network Admin. I would not have tackled the valve adjustment without the Fred’s videos. I feel strongly that since I did my own original adjustment, and second check myself, I did a better job and have more faith in my own work than I would have if I dropped it off at a shop with an unknown mechanic doing the work.

So thanks Fred for the videos. By watching you, I feel like I’m expert servicing the C-14. Your detailed instructions for removing the plastic are invaluable.   However, the question is, would I feel comfortable doing extensive work like a valve adjustment on other motorcycles without this video help. Honestly, my answer is no. I can watch along and can follow detailed instructions, but I am not a serious mechanic and would get in over my head.

However, again with the videos, other service tasks like bleeding brakes and clutches, and replacing brake pads and tires, yes I do think I know enough to service other motorcycles. So thanks for teaching me Fred. Note that Fred’s help is available full time any time I want to work on my C-14.  That is an invaluable resource.

Servicing your own motorcycle is risky, but again with the help and resources, the C-14 is doable if you know your limits.

Please come back to the Forum Fred and continue to contribute like you did iso well in the past. You did a great job with the self cancelling turn signal option in the Concouier.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2017, 10:46:02 pm »
BTW, I hope EVERYONE understands there was no disrespect intended toward Fred or his videos in my posts. But you know what, I have video's too... and here's a great example of what I mean... I have a video about how to tune the airbox on the c-10. Very clearly instructing how to block part of the airbox intake. Airbox removed from bike, no obstructed view, clearly explained, etc. Somehow, that still didn't stop a few people from putting the block in the #4 carburetor intake throat. Or more commonly, not installing the block at all (although it's written on the instructions and linked to the you tube video), and then emailing me that the carbs don't work. So from my very honest and extensive experience with folks following video resources, I still say  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

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Offline C. Moore

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2017, 10:35:12 am »
The first time I watched the valve adjust video for the C14 I said to myself "oh hell no". I even questioned why I bought the bike. After letting things sink in I bit the bullet, did it and I'm glad I did.  Fred's video was the key for me to get it done properly. I also referenced the manual.
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Offline Slambo

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2017, 11:17:20 am »
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2017, 11:28:00 am »
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo

This was no fault of yours, so I don’t think you need to apologize since your original post was fine. It was very clear to all what put this thread off the rails. It’s a common negative occcuance by one individual. We need more folks like you Scott. Negative folks need to go away.
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Offline ConcoursKZ

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2017, 11:44:54 am »
I find it funny that you don't seem to have any issue with Kawasaki making a paper manual and selling it, and not giving it away for free. What were they thinking?  Could it be that it cost them time, effort and money to produce it?

I also find it interesting that you don't seem to be reporting any of the 50 different threads on here about Steve's flash, or have a problem with him selling it and not showing folks the map tables it contains.  I wonder why he doesn't just give that away for free, after all, it's just information.

Or have you reported any of the other half dozen other vendors that have made posts marketing things in the general or accessories form?  No, you seem to only have an issue with me, or my threads, regardless of content.  You've been stalking me on here for several years now, and I'm sick of it.  I make ONE POST A YEAR about my videos being on sale, and you are all over it instantly.  It's the only sale I have and I don't even make enough money off these videos to pay for dog food.  I'm lucky if I sell one a month, and crap like this makes me just want to pull the plug on them altogether, it isn't worth the hassle.

I'm done here.  It isn't worth my time or energy talking to you.

Well, I can't say much other than you are clueless with regard to Kawasaki, Steve, and other issues... and have vehemently taken your tech editor status as a badge permitting you to make money in a manner, Clearly outlined in the posting rules.

You drew first blood here, I explained my main issue was you selling knowledge, here on the C14 area in lieu of the vendor area.
You have zero ethics.
Something that Steve DOES possess, which is why he is no longer tech editor, as he painfully fought his own personal battle all through his duration as a tech editor also, constantly fighting his own felings that seeling and being an officer were not conducive to Karma, and or proper.
You dissed him constantly, and that didn't help either, as its another reason for him resigning.
If I find an inappropriate post of stuff being sold by a VENDOR in a thread, I contact mods, and ask for it to be moved. Done. I did the same with your posts hawking your vids, in the incorrect area.. but you continue to press the limits.
Kawasaki sells products... thay aren't using our forum as their sale point.
Steve sells a flash, and does so via industry link for sales.. or should anyways... if some hundred odd folks choose to praise him in this area, its not something that can be controlled. And don't be stupid and say he should provide anything to anyone, for free... because he's a member now... not a tech editor... get it?  He's given away more free knowledge, of high quality, than you could fit on 15 cd's...  both here, and in youtube videos, which by the way was a perfectly fit project to show his dedication to this group, while you sold videos... I guess his secret went right over your head....

Please, just do what you were tasked to do, to uphold the expectations of the Technical Editor, post help here for those that ask, keep abreast of their needs, and provide answers, be visable and make it a point to be the "go to" person to provide for their issues.

. don't skulk away and just come round 5 times a year to sell a video. Its all I asked..
I don't stay awake at night or stalk you.. your ego has you believing something that isn't there.

Unreal.
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Offline ron203

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2017, 01:25:36 pm »
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo

Not your fault in any way. We're a community who chooses to post what we say each time we hit "Post."  Sometimes people go off in random directions for sometimes random reasons, and (usually) the wisdom of the collective pulls it back into line. If everyone thinks twice before posting once, we can have a productive and enjoyable place to share our enthusiasm and common interests.
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Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2017, 04:38:48 pm »
There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:+2 :beerchug:

+1
This has to stop!
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Offline ConcoursKZ

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2017, 04:44:51 pm »
There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:+2 :beerchug:

+1
This has to stop!

He is not the only one.
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Offline P07r0457

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2017, 01:49:06 pm »
In great part, i agree with you. Taking the plastic off and getting to the plugs is not small feat, and if a guy can do that he's certainly skilled at some level in mechanics. BUT as a guy who has years with the c-10 and it's owners, I still strongly feel when it gets to cams there's a line most won't - and shouldn't cross.

If I had any confidence that a shop would actually perform the work properly, then I would pay for the service.  However, I tend to have trust issues regarding mechanics.  Reading around the forum, it seems my fears are not entirely unjustified, as many (most, even?) shops tell owners their valves were in-spec, when we know that is unlikely to be true.  I've also read reports that many dealer parts departments do not carry shims in-stock -- which calls into question how these shops could possibly perform the valve adjustment?

What can an owner do?  Unless you are lucky and have someone you know does honest and competent valve adjustments, then I think owners are better served by taking their time and performing the procedure on their own.  At least the owner has some skin in the game, and can take their time and be careful.

I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.  I've done valve adjustments on other engines with screw-and-locknut -- but never with shims.  The process with shims appears to be considerably more complicated (removing the cams, for example.  I normally forgo paying for repair videos -- especially since I have the FSM -- but in this case I decided to order Fred's videos.  I am hoping that my confidence level increases considerably after watching those.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:04:06 pm by P07r0457 »
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Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2017, 02:23:51 pm »
For those of you planning on doing a valve adjustment on a 2010 C14 or newer, be aware that the timing marks are different that those shown in Fred's video (performed on a 2008 or 2009).  That is why you need to refer to the proper-year manual as well as the videos. Check out posts by 4Bikes for helpful info.
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2017, 02:34:19 pm »
When I worked at our local shop, the service department their own valve shim sets and did not need to order them in to make an adjustment.

They always did the adjustment, too, if necessary.  There was no big conspiracy to see how they could rip of off a customer.

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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2017, 02:14:57 pm »
I'm going to offer an alternative point of view on this thread, and one that I hope spurns some relevant thought and discussion:

As a person who has some technical ability to wrench, and has done a similar valve job on my Aprilia in the past, I have been considering performing this service on my own recently, and almost purchased Fred's videos in the past few days to assist me tackling the job (all hyperbole aside).

I've also been given the name of a reputable wrench who does this work for $$$ in the Atlanta area by another member, not unlike Steve, Fred, Mattchewn, and others.
Baseline cost is $800 not including shims, coolant, plugs, etc.

As somebody who just paid nearly $500 to renew my FACTORY WARRANTY for another 3 years, I think it should be offered for consideration by the group, that performing service myself or paying a hired wrench (non-Kawi tech) will most certainly void the warranty on engine if anything goes awry.
Again -- this logic can be applied to the simple oil change, ECU Flash, farkle addition, etc, etc.
But, This is a servicing that can directly effect the short and long-term health and performance of the Engine, and could easily render your bike essentially worthless if the motor grenades itself due to poor workmanship.

I understand that this is not a horrifically difficult task for any skilled "shade-tree" mechanic, but I would urge caution to those that have remaining or extended warranties through Mama-Kaw, to consider the ramifications of not using a certified Kawi mechanic / shop to do this type of service.

I too like doing most of my service myself, knowing that the work got done, and done properly.  However, in the case of invalidating Factory warranties, I'm truly now considering taking my bike to a Kawi Shop to have this servicing done.
When my warranty is no longer valid, I will most certainly reconsider doing this work myself, or hiring a trusted wrench to do it for me.  But until that time or mileage comes, I think I'll take the safe route, and find a Certified Kawi shop to do the work for me.
Do I think they do better work?? Not really, but I'll still have the factory warranty behind me, and sleep better as a result.

As reference, I have a 2012, 20k miles, and just extended my factory warranty for an additional 3 years last March.  I will likely do it again at the end of that 3 years, if I still own the bike - which i intend to.   :great:

Food for thought.

gr
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2017, 04:12:13 pm »
GR, in reference to the Warranty you have a valid point.
One that I have also pondered.

NOTE: We take that chance with everything we do to our bikes.
          ie; Flash's, headers, suspensions, windshields, bar mods, etc..

My concern is more; Will the job be done right.
    less, they might void my warranty if I do it myself.

Sadly, I've lost faith in taking the bike in for Kawasaki to do the work.

With that in mind, I have more faith that the job will be done right if I do it myself or have it done by a competent mechanic.

Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know "you" did a valve adjust?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 06:38:19 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline P07r0457

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2017, 04:14:48 pm »
Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know you did a valve adjust?  >:D
Then the problem becomes Kawasaki will accuse you of not performing mandatory maintenance.

It's a moot concern, for me, as the warranty on my 2009 C14 is long expired.  But I understand why those still under warranty may have reason to use a dealer for service.
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Online Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2017, 04:42:41 pm »
There's an over concern on the warranty issue being expressed. Remember that in the magnuson moss act, the warranty is not voided unless damage occurs from the work / modification that was done, and the damage can be directly linked causally to that work / modification. Steve
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Offline jwh20

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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2017, 06:37:23 pm »
With that in mind, I have more faith that the job will be done right if I do it myself or have it done by a competent mechanic.

Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know you did a valve adjust?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

Basically the same way you might "prove" that you did an oil change at the recommended interval.  It used to be that if you had a bearing failure and had NOT had the oil change done at the dealer, they could deny your warranty claim.  But the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (mentioned by Steve) clarified this situation.  If you changed the oil yourself you need some sort of paper trail and generally a note that you changed the oil at XX,XXX miles on a certain date along with a receipt for oil and filter would be enough.

So for a valve check/adjust a valve measurement map, some receipts for shims, gaskets, and anything else, plus a note of the mileage would be enough to "prove" that it was done.  Of course if the dealer took the top-end apart and discovered that someone failed to replace the oil-tubes or left one of the cam holder bolts out, then they could deny a warranty claim that was RELATED to that error.  It would be improper for them to deny a final-drive claim for a missed or botched valve check but it might be acceptable to deny a burned valve claim if the valve check were found to be improperly done.
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Re: First valve adjust observations
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2017, 08:08:34 pm »
I agree with the previous two posts, and had similar concerns until this Magnuson Moss law was shown to me.  You might need to consider that you may actually run into more warranty issues if you choose to do nothing, since the valve checks and adjustments are listed clearly in the periodic maintenance section of the owners manual and service manual.   Not doing the check and adjustments and having something related may void the warranty.  Here is one way I would prove this work was done.



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