Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Slambo on November 09, 2017, 01:23:54 am

Title: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on November 09, 2017, 01:23:54 am
In the middle of my first valve adjust at ~ 18,250 miles.  Definitely doable for a regular guy used to doing some mechanic work.  Like everyone says it is tedious work to get to the valves, just taking my time to avoid breaking anything.  Found ten of sixteen valves out of spec tight...7 of the 8 exhaust valves were tight.  Spark plugs looked perfect, will change anyway.  Plan to drain and replace coolant and do throttle body balance also.  Any words of advice for routing the throttle body vacuum lines I will leave behind for next time?  Fred’s videos are extremely helpful...definitely recommend them, although they do tend to put me to sleep!
Just thought I would pass along some words of encouragement for anyone thinking about doing it the first time.  You can do it.

Slambo

Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: khager01 on November 10, 2017, 02:08:09 am
Definitely not looking forward to my first  valve adjust.   I just finished checking the valves on my V-Strom for the 5th time,  75K miles on it and the valves only needed 1 adjustment at 30K.  My previous one had 62K and only needing 1 adjustment at 15K.  Hoping  the Connie is the same as checking is a lot easier than having to adjust.  Obviously  it's going to be a lot harder getting to the motor on the Connie! >:(
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: fordtruck on November 10, 2017, 01:01:42 pm
Definitely not looking forward to my first  valve adjust.   I just finished checking the valves on my V-Strom for the 5th time,  75K miles on it and the valves only needed 1 adjustment at 30K.  My previous one had 62K and only needing 1 adjustment at 15K.  Hoping  the Connie is the same as checking is a lot easier than having to adjust.  Obviously  it's going to be a lot harder getting to the motor on the Connie! >:(

You'll be fine, just take your time.  Before I did the valves on my Connie, the only experience I had with valve adjustments was on a KLR650 and my KZ1000.  Do you have Fred's videos?  They help a lot with removing all the plastic, wiring, and brackets.  My bike had 25K miles on her and 14 of the 16 valves were either at the bottom range or too tight.  I spent the better part of one day just getting to the valves.  There's a wealth of info on these forums if you get into trouble.  Good luck!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: TimR on November 10, 2017, 04:30:37 pm
Quote
Plan to drain and replace coolant and do throttle body balance also.

Just be aware when you undo the coolant plug/bolt to drain the coolant, it will shoot out much further than expected. There are several including my self who got a surprise and pretty wet. Cap was off. Other than that pretty much straight forward.   
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on November 10, 2017, 07:11:19 pm
Thanks for the heads up on the coolant...good to know!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on November 10, 2017, 11:01:23 pm
Amazing how when doing your own valve checks you find so many out of spec. A dealer checks them and says “all in spec, good to go”. Your findings are similar to mine, since I adjusted 15 out of 16 valves the first time.   Agree with Fred’s videos being helpful. 2x or More play speed helps a lot. 
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ghostrider990 on November 11, 2017, 10:07:06 am
I soooo need to do this at 18500 miles now, and I JUST had all the plastic off, including the tank.  >:(

If ONLY I could find a trustworthy Kawi Tech.

gr
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: C. Moore on November 11, 2017, 10:40:44 am
I did mine at 26600. At that mileage the valves had tightened up a bit but none were out of spec. I adjusted everything to the loose end. Not a bad job but nothing I would want to do under a clock or in one day. Just take your time and double check your work. The how to video is good to have so you can follow along.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Downhill on November 12, 2017, 06:53:24 pm
Nope.....Not doing it.  The tools I'm used to working with are larger than the entire bike.  Not to mention my patience is historically short.  I took mine to the only dealer in upstate NY that I trust back in October.  With just over 15k they did the valves the coolant, oil and filter, throttle and put new PR2's on front and back.  Thing feels better than new and I didn't do this  >:(
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Bruiser on November 12, 2017, 11:44:45 pm
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: jwh20 on November 13, 2017, 01:13:16 am
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on November 23, 2017, 01:40:00 pm
FYI, my once a year sale on my videos is now active.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Road Runner on November 23, 2017, 08:43:54 pm
FYI, my once a year sale on my videos is now active.

Fred, I'm referencing your videos now (for valve check/adjustment), along with the service manual. Performing the work, this long Thanksgiving weekend.

Super helpful having both references IMO.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 23, 2017, 11:50:21 pm
 :-X

POSTING RULES... ::)

"7- Advertising - Any subscriber may advertise motorcycle related products and services in the relevant COG Mart section of the forum. Industry Members only may ‘reference’ their products/services in a relevant reply to a thread, any advertising should be done as an afterthought to providing members genuine help or assistance."
 :-X
FYI, my once a year sale on my videos is now active.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on November 24, 2017, 12:45:33 am
Rich (MOB), you seem to be overly concerned about anything I do on this forum, and you obviously have had a vendetta against me for some time now, and everyone on this site knows this.  You have done your best to belittle and berate me at every turn and essentially try to drive me off this site altogether. You are the sole reason I don’t post on here anymore.

I’ve had enough of you and I’m not going to put up with your crap anymore.  All you have done in the years I’ve seen you on here is insult people and try to make yourself out to be oh so smarter than everyone else.  You continually made folks angry in your very short term as tech-ed, so much that folks came to me complaining about you, and I let Guy know about it.  Ever since then you have had it out for me, and you take any and every opportunity to try to take a poke at me.  Anyone with half a brain can see through your veiled attempts and knows what all this is really about.  You want to seek revenge on me in any way you can. 

You’re like a little boy.  I suggest you grow up and act like a man instead of a child.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: sfsokc on November 24, 2017, 04:23:15 am
I'm going to chime in here as well, in spite of going off topic.  I have not been a frequent poster, but have been a member of COG for several years.  In fact, I recently attended the Big Bend event and met some really AWESOME people (my first ever event), including some on the COG board.  I spent some time chatting with them about you Fred, what a great man of character you are, and an excellent resource to the community over the years.  They all agreed!  I met you personally when you did my valves up in Ft. Worth a year ago.  Although at the time, I didn't want to mention here on the forum, but you came ALL THE WAY down to San Antonio, not once, but TWICE to fix an issue on my bike, to "make it right".  Who does that?!  Who provides service like that?!

But geez guys, can we bury the hatchet finally?  And yes Fred, many of us have heard about this silly feud, and yes, it came across quite obviously in MOB's post. (nothing subtle about that).

It would be nice if we could all get along, as the great community we obviously are.  Otherwise, I think the board should consider taking some kind of action, whatever that's deemed to be.  Just my two cents....
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Just Cliff on November 24, 2017, 12:30:57 pm

It would be nice if we could all get along, as the great community we obviously are.  Otherwise, I think the board should consider taking some kind of action, whatever that's deemed to be.  Just my two cents....

Personally I was glad to see a post from Fred again. There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 24, 2017, 09:55:38 pm
Rich (MOB), you seem to be overly concerned about anything I do on this forum, and you obviously have had a vendetta against me for some time now, and everyone on this site knows this.  You have done your best to belittle and berate me at every turn and essentially try to drive me off this site altogether. You are the sole reason I don’t post on here anymore.

I’ve had enough of you and I’m not going to put up with your crap anymore.  All you have done in the years I’ve seen you on here is insult people and try to make yourself out to be oh so smarter than everyone else.  You continually made folks angry in your very short term as tech-ed, so much that folks came to me complaining about you, and I let Guy know about it.  Ever since then you have had it out for me, and you take any and every opportunity to try to take a poke at me.  Anyone with half a brain can see through your veiled attempts and knows what all this is really about.  You want to seek revenge on me in any way you can. 

You’re like a little boy.  I suggest you grow up and act like a man instead of a child.

Ok
I bury the hatchet.

The ONLY issue I have ever, EVER, had, was the sale of videos to share technical advice, that should, or could, be given freely to the members that really rely on some input and assistance... period.
My post, just reiterates that if you want to sell something, it should be sold in the proper section of "products" by "industry members", whether they are an officer of COG, a Technical advisor, or whatever. Period.

I have had numerous conversations with all of the directors empowered since you began selling techincal videos here on forum.
I'm not the only person that found the sale of "information" from someone honored with a position to "share", very disconcerting.. and other Tech Advisors from this time period, and past, have agreed somewhat... but nothing could be done.
I chose not to open dialog with you directly to explain my displeasure with this particular issue, simply because I knew it was worthless on my part, after many back and forth emails were sent in discussion of whether it violated the basic and expected contributions to this group, without financial compensation.

That's pretty much the issue Fred, in a nutshell... I have absolutly nothing against you, nor hold some secret agenda which fires your paranoia, nor should it, when you give technical advice, I read it as anyone else's contributions, and if there is fault, I comment, if not, I agree, and its all done to insure correct exchange of info is out there...

So stop being so touchy, if I post something with regard to some advice you gave, when you gave it, then you may think a bit more about the advice... and not pull your post leaving people wondering what transpired, which I have seen you do.

Again, all I really ask, is that you come here, and offer the Technical advice members of COG expect of the person trusted to do so.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Posting 5 posts in a year, and having them all basically selling your video, in the C14 section as opposed to Industry Member Sales does not constitute sharing Tech.

You did a fine job creating this supposed vandetta scenario, which is, nor never was my intent.

Please Fred, do what you were tasked with for the Position, and things should work out.. its all I can ask.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: JDSCO on November 24, 2017, 10:52:08 pm
There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:

+1
This has to stop!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 24, 2017, 11:24:15 pm
I'm going to chime in here as well, in spite of going off topic.  I have not been a frequent poster, but have been a member of COG for several years.  In fact, I recently attended the Big Bend event and met some really AWESOME people (my first ever event), including some on the COG board.  I spent some time chatting with them about you Fred, what a great man of character you are, and an excellent resource to the community over the years.  They all agreed!  I met you personally when you did my valves up in Ft. Worth a year ago.  Although at the time, I didn't want to mention here on the forum, but you came ALL THE WAY down to San Antonio, not once, but TWICE to fix an issue on my bike, to "make it right".  Who does that?!  Who provides service like that?!

But geez guys, can we bury the hatchet finally?  And yes Fred, many of us have heard about this silly feud, and yes, it came across quite obviously in MOB's post. (nothing subtle about that).

It would be nice if we could all get along, as the great community we obviously are.  Otherwise, I think the board should consider taking some kind of action, whatever that's deemed to be.  Just my two cents....

Ok, as mob mentality is beginning to circle the wagons and burn the witch, I'll ask you to go back in time, and read exactly the progression of posts made when you said you had someone do your valve work.
I and a few others, jumped in there, and began to assist and troubleshoot the matter, and attempt to offer assistance.
Truth be told, you never said WHO di the valve work, so my comments regarding that service were not focussed on someone particular as being anything more than someone goofed up... only in the FINAL post of that thread, still unrevealed by you, did the person that made the error stuep forward, and make a statement as to what actually occurred. I applaud that person for his ntribution of that, as we all can make mistakes, and when mistakes happen at the hands of someone other than yourself, well.. it is kinda expected they fix it.. so, 2 trips or one trip, to make the bike right, would be expected by anyone. No fingers pointed, just good ethics. If I goof up, I fix it.

A dealer would give you a runaround, luckily you had someone who had irons in the fire to pritect, and for this reason it was all rectified, and that is good.

Don't jump on the bandwagon and start in on me based on what I posted in my attempts to assist you, you never once said anything about Fred doing the work.

As for others that just have to "jump into the fight", well, go right ahead.. read my post, it explains my feelings about why I simply posted that advertising a product should be in the proper section, but I guess it doesn't matter once people start gnawing on bones.

Carry on.



(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/73893978.jpg)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 24, 2017, 11:30:36 pm
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.

  Sorry JWH, gotta disagree with you heartily on this one.  I'm a mechanic, not an electrician. I can wire in a wall socket, but I'm not qualified to wire in a fusebox, even if someone says "how hard can it be, it's only a bunch of wires". Well a valve adjustment is like that... if you have to pull the cams and blow the timing or bend a cam going back together, it's gonna really suck. Maybe not as bad as using your tongue to check if a wire is hot, but you get the point.

Steve
   
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on November 24, 2017, 11:53:29 pm
I find it funny that you don't seem to have any issue with Kawasaki making a paper manual and selling it, and not giving it away for free. What were they thinking?  Could it be that it cost them time, effort and money to produce it?

I also find it interesting that you don't seem to be reporting any of the 50 different threads on here about Steve's flash, or have a problem with him selling it and not showing folks the map tables it contains.  I wonder why he doesn't just give that away for free, after all, it's just information.

Or have you reported any of the other half dozen other vendors that have made posts marketing things in the general or accessories form?  No, you seem to only have an issue with me, or my threads, regardless of content.  You've been stalking me on here for several years now, and I'm sick of it.  I make ONE POST A YEAR about my videos being on sale, and you are all over it instantly.  It's the only sale I have and I don't even make enough money off these videos to pay for dog food.  I'm lucky if I sell one a month, and crap like this makes me just want to pull the plug on them altogether, it isn't worth the hassle.

I'm done here.  It isn't worth my time or energy talking to you.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2017, 02:06:14 am
 Really Fred, you gotta drag me into it?

Steve
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: TimR on November 25, 2017, 02:16:32 am
Now that this thread is back on track...lets keep it there. While some of this makes for interesting reading the fighting between two doesn't belong here. So enough already. MOB give it a rest.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 25, 2017, 02:34:26 am
I'm done.
Moderate the post.
Advise that for sale advertisements go into the proper section.
Industry members selling on Cog Mart section.
That's all I asked.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Gumby on November 25, 2017, 03:30:46 am
As an officer I am going out on a limb posting this, but I would like to say instead of trying to moderate the forum please try to self moderate your posts Rich. 

I am curious why you go to such an extreme to tell Fred to post in the Industry Member section when only a week ago you promoted/advertised his videos in another post NOT in the Industry Member section.

Well, the slave cylinder is in the same place on all the engines, so if you have Fred's videos, you should be able to ascertain how much more plastic needs removed to see it... kinda a dumb answer on my part, but realistically its a simple task, if taken on methodically, and a lot less technical than other issues that may pop up while doing a bleed job and fluid replacement. Which will likely happen, as history has shown here.
I have an 86, so I can't say just how much has to come off, but the improved lower heat baffle surly is one, don't think there is more to it than that.
Unfortunatly this is sounding like the proverbial "half hour job" that may turn into a multi day nightmare at this point, knowing some of the issues that go along with admitting air into the clutch system on this task.
Be bold, jump in and start taking stuff off, be careful to remove all fasteners before trying to force panels to the breaking point...
Best of luck.

Let's stop beating up on each other on the forum and go back to helping each other out doing what we love to do... RIDE!

Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: TimR on November 25, 2017, 05:50:20 am
Quote
Let's stop beating up on each other on the forum and go back to helping each other out doing what we love to do... RIDE!

Exactly!!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Freddy on November 25, 2017, 09:40:55 am
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.


  Sorry JWH, gotta disagree with you heartily on this one.  I'm a mechanic, not an electrician. I can wire in a wall socket, but I'm not qualified to wire in a fusebox, even if someone says "how hard can it be, it's only a bunch of wires". Well a valve adjustment is like that... if you have to pull the cams and blow the timing or bend a cam going back together, it's gonna really suck. Maybe not as bad as using your tongue to check if a wire is hot, but you get the point.

Steve
 

+1.  The brave and/or ignorant may be blissfully overconfident.  It's no job for the faint of heart or beginners or the inexperienced to undertake due to the accuracy and know-how required to make a success of it.  Being able to change spark plugs in the 1400 is totally unrelated to the skill level needed to change shims with precision.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on November 25, 2017, 10:03:45 am
Didn’t know my original post of encouragement to start this thread would turn into that discussion!  Anyway, been riding motorcycles for 40+ years, riding a C14 for last three and a COG member for about a year.  I love the C14 and enjoy COG.  I have received extremely useful information and/or products from Fred, Steve and MoB, so I thank you all.  Wrapping up my valve adjust, but delayed by Thanksgiving family activities right now.
Hope y’all had a nice Thanksgiving.
Slambo
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Freddy on November 25, 2017, 10:57:12 am
Glad it's going well Slambo.  You're the first I've seen in 10 years report that so many valves were out of spec at any mileage.  Perhaps the robot that assembled it in Japan was in need of a service too. 
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: jwh20 on November 25, 2017, 12:52:20 pm
I also like doing my own stuff, but when I had 22k, I had someone do the job. After doing my own sparkplugs, I thought "no way am I doing the valves"!

Gosh, if you can do the spark plugs you can definitely do the valves.  You're 90% of the way there once you get the plugs out.

  Sorry JWH, gotta disagree with you heartily on this one.  I'm a mechanic, not an electrician. I can wire in a wall socket, but I'm not qualified to wire in a fusebox, even if someone says "how hard can it be, it's only a bunch of wires". Well a valve adjustment is like that... if you have to pull the cams and blow the timing or bend a cam going back together, it's gonna really suck. Maybe not as bad as using your tongue to check if a wire is hot, but you get the point.

Steve
 

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole on my part but the point is still valid.  Each person needs to assess their own mechanical skills when deciding to do a valve adjustment or take it to a shop.  But the amount of work in just getting to the valves is significant compared to the total amount of work involved.  So by the time you have reached the point where you can access the spark plugs, you're well on your way to at least a valve check.

To quote the immortal words of "Dirty" Harry Callahan:

"A man's got to know his limitations."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2017, 01:26:59 pm

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole on my part but the point is still valid.  Each person needs to assess their own mechanical skills when deciding to do a valve adjustment or take it to a shop.  But the amount of work in just getting to the valves is significant compared to the total amount of work involved.  So by the time you have reached the point where you can access the spark plugs, you're well on your way to at least a valve check.


  In great part, i agree with you. Taking the plastic off and getting to the plugs is not small feat, and if a guy can do that he's certainly skilled at some level in mechanics. BUT as a guy who has years with the c-10 and it's owners, I still strongly feel when it gets to cams there's a line most won't - and shouldn't cross.

    Now this is not an advertisement, clearly, because it's a c-10 product - but I've offered replacement cams for years. C-10's have pitting issues across the board. Guys wanted a reasonably priced replacement and more low end torque as well, so most c-10 guys really like that idea. But when they come to replacing the cams, most just won't do it, even though they want to. and I've had shop mechanics blow cam timing several times... it seems to really mess people up because they really don't understand the importance of valve to piston timing and interface. So I have a lot of experience talking people through their mistakes, even to the point of making a 20 minute you tube video (zg1000 cam and valve).

  Bottom line, the c-14 isn't an easy bike to work on, and I WISH everyone who owns one could work on their bike effectively, though most can't. If they could, there wouldn't be any unscrupulous shops saying "all the valves are in spec" when they actually never even checked them, but I guess that's the topic for another conversation.

 Steve
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on November 25, 2017, 02:09:30 pm
I agree that everyone needs to know their limits. But let’s consider that the C-14 valve adjustment procedure while complicated is understandable with the resources that are out there. Someone did a great job, and took the time and effort to detail the entire procedure in a step by step process.  That combined with the references to the service manual will give someone that is not a skilled mechanic the confidence to tackle this specific project.  I think one person in particular that routinely criticizes  Fred’s videos, has not actually ever seen the videos.

So for Steve’s example of not being qualified to work on an electrical panel, consider if he was only working on one specific panel and someone showed every step of the procedure, he could follow along and perhaps even do a better job than someone doing it without the guidance of another professional.

Sure there are lots of ways to get out of your comfort zone, or not have the skills and experience to know when you are not torquing something properly, or assembling thing in the wrong order, or missing key steps. If you use the videos as a crutch for lack of experience, you need to keep in mind that you need to follow those steps carefully.

I am not a mechanic, I’m a Network Admin. I would not have tackled the valve adjustment without the Fred’s videos. I feel strongly that since I did my own original adjustment, and second check myself, I did a better job and have more faith in my own work than I would have if I dropped it off at a shop with an unknown mechanic doing the work.

So thanks Fred for the videos. By watching you, I feel like I’m expert servicing the C-14. Your detailed instructions for removing the plastic are invaluable.   However, the question is, would I feel comfortable doing extensive work like a valve adjustment on other motorcycles without this video help. Honestly, my answer is no. I can watch along and can follow detailed instructions, but I am not a serious mechanic and would get in over my head.

However, again with the videos, other service tasks like bleeding brakes and clutches, and replacing brake pads and tires, yes I do think I know enough to service other motorcycles. So thanks for teaching me Fred. Note that Fred’s help is available full time any time I want to work on my C-14.  That is an invaluable resource.

Servicing your own motorcycle is risky, but again with the help and resources, the C-14 is doable if you know your limits.

Please come back to the Forum Fred and continue to contribute like you did iso well in the past. You did a great job with the self cancelling turn signal option in the Concouier.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 25, 2017, 10:46:02 pm
BTW, I hope EVERYONE understands there was no disrespect intended toward Fred or his videos in my posts. But you know what, I have video's too... and here's a great example of what I mean... I have a video about how to tune the airbox on the c-10. Very clearly instructing how to block part of the airbox intake. Airbox removed from bike, no obstructed view, clearly explained, etc. Somehow, that still didn't stop a few people from putting the block in the #4 carburetor intake throat. Or more commonly, not installing the block at all (although it's written on the instructions and linked to the you tube video), and then emailing me that the carbs don't work. So from my very honest and extensive experience with folks following video resources, I still say  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Steve
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: C. Moore on November 26, 2017, 10:35:12 am
The first time I watched the valve adjust video for the C14 I said to myself "oh hell no". I even questioned why I bought the bike. After letting things sink in I bit the bullet, did it and I'm glad I did.  Fred's video was the key for me to get it done properly. I also referenced the manual.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on November 26, 2017, 11:17:20 am
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on November 26, 2017, 11:28:00 am
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo

This was no fault of yours, so I don’t think you need to apologize since your original post was fine. It was very clear to all what put this thread off the rails. It’s a common negative occcuance by one individual. We need more folks like you Scott. Negative folks need to go away.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ConcoursKZ on November 26, 2017, 11:44:54 am
I find it funny that you don't seem to have any issue with Kawasaki making a paper manual and selling it, and not giving it away for free. What were they thinking?  Could it be that it cost them time, effort and money to produce it?

I also find it interesting that you don't seem to be reporting any of the 50 different threads on here about Steve's flash, or have a problem with him selling it and not showing folks the map tables it contains.  I wonder why he doesn't just give that away for free, after all, it's just information.

Or have you reported any of the other half dozen other vendors that have made posts marketing things in the general or accessories form?  No, you seem to only have an issue with me, or my threads, regardless of content.  You've been stalking me on here for several years now, and I'm sick of it.  I make ONE POST A YEAR about my videos being on sale, and you are all over it instantly.  It's the only sale I have and I don't even make enough money off these videos to pay for dog food.  I'm lucky if I sell one a month, and crap like this makes me just want to pull the plug on them altogether, it isn't worth the hassle.

I'm done here.  It isn't worth my time or energy talking to you.

Well, I can't say much other than you are clueless with regard to Kawasaki, Steve, and other issues... and have vehemently taken your tech editor status as a badge permitting you to make money in a manner, Clearly outlined in the posting rules.

You drew first blood here, I explained my main issue was you selling knowledge, here on the C14 area in lieu of the vendor area.
You have zero ethics.
Something that Steve DOES possess, which is why he is no longer tech editor, as he painfully fought his own personal battle all through his duration as a tech editor also, constantly fighting his own felings that seeling and being an officer were not conducive to Karma, and or proper.
You dissed him constantly, and that didn't help either, as its another reason for him resigning.
If I find an inappropriate post of stuff being sold by a VENDOR in a thread, I contact mods, and ask for it to be moved. Done. I did the same with your posts hawking your vids, in the incorrect area.. but you continue to press the limits.
Kawasaki sells products... thay aren't using our forum as their sale point.
Steve sells a flash, and does so via industry link for sales.. or should anyways... if some hundred odd folks choose to praise him in this area, its not something that can be controlled. And don't be stupid and say he should provide anything to anyone, for free... because he's a member now... not a tech editor... get it?  He's given away more free knowledge, of high quality, than you could fit on 15 cd's...  both here, and in youtube videos, which by the way was a perfectly fit project to show his dedication to this group, while you sold videos... I guess his secret went right over your head....

Please, just do what you were tasked to do, to uphold the expectations of the Technical Editor, post help here for those that ask, keep abreast of their needs, and provide answers, be visable and make it a point to be the "go to" person to provide for their issues.

. don't skulk away and just come round 5 times a year to sell a video. Its all I asked..
I don't stay awake at night or stalk you.. your ego has you believing something that isn't there.

Unreal.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ron203 on November 26, 2017, 01:25:36 pm
I had no idea this thread would turn out this way and result in Fred leaving COG and the C14 community...Fred’s videos helped me a great deal and this was certainly not my intention...my apologies to all.

Slambo

Not your fault in any way. We're a community who chooses to post what we say each time we hit "Post."  Sometimes people go off in random directions for sometimes random reasons, and (usually) the wisdom of the collective pulls it back into line. If everyone thinks twice before posting once, we can have a productive and enjoyable place to share our enthusiasm and common interests.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: oldnslo_MO on November 26, 2017, 04:38:48 pm
There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:+2 :beerchug:

+1
This has to stop!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ConcoursKZ on November 26, 2017, 04:44:51 pm
There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:+2 :beerchug:

+1
This has to stop!

He is not the only one.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Guest on November 27, 2017, 01:49:06 pm
In great part, i agree with you. Taking the plastic off and getting to the plugs is not small feat, and if a guy can do that he's certainly skilled at some level in mechanics. BUT as a guy who has years with the c-10 and it's owners, I still strongly feel when it gets to cams there's a line most won't - and shouldn't cross.

If I had any confidence that a shop would actually perform the work properly, then I would pay for the service.  However, I tend to have trust issues regarding mechanics.  Reading around the forum, it seems my fears are not entirely unjustified, as many (most, even?) shops tell owners their valves were in-spec, when we know that is unlikely to be true.  I've also read reports that many dealer parts departments do not carry shims in-stock -- which calls into question how these shops could possibly perform the valve adjustment?

What can an owner do?  Unless you are lucky and have someone you know does honest and competent valve adjustments, then I think owners are better served by taking their time and performing the procedure on their own.  At least the owner has some skin in the game, and can take their time and be careful.

I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.  I've done valve adjustments on other engines with screw-and-locknut -- but never with shims.  The process with shims appears to be considerably more complicated (removing the cams, for example.  I normally forgo paying for repair videos -- especially since I have the FSM -- but in this case I decided to order Fred's videos.  I am hoping that my confidence level increases considerably after watching those.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Texas Concours14 on November 27, 2017, 02:23:51 pm
For those of you planning on doing a valve adjustment on a 2010 C14 or newer, be aware that the timing marks are different that those shown in Fred's video (performed on a 2008 or 2009).  That is why you need to refer to the proper-year manual as well as the videos. Check out posts by 4Bikes for helpful info.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: rcannon409 on November 27, 2017, 02:34:19 pm
When I worked at our local shop, the service department their own valve shim sets and did not need to order them in to make an adjustment.

They always did the adjustment, too, if necessary.  There was no big conspiracy to see how they could rip of off a customer.

Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ghostrider990 on November 29, 2017, 02:14:57 pm
I'm going to offer an alternative point of view on this thread, and one that I hope spurns some relevant thought and discussion:

As a person who has some technical ability to wrench, and has done a similar valve job on my Aprilia in the past, I have been considering performing this service on my own recently, and almost purchased Fred's videos in the past few days to assist me tackling the job (all hyperbole aside).

I've also been given the name of a reputable wrench who does this work for $$$ in the Atlanta area by another member, not unlike Steve, Fred, Mattchewn, and others.
Baseline cost is $800 not including shims, coolant, plugs, etc.

As somebody who just paid nearly $500 to renew my FACTORY WARRANTY for another 3 years, I think it should be offered for consideration by the group, that performing service myself or paying a hired wrench (non-Kawi tech) will most certainly void the warranty on engine if anything goes awry.
Again -- this logic can be applied to the simple oil change, ECU Flash, farkle addition, etc, etc.
But, This is a servicing that can directly effect the short and long-term health and performance of the Engine, and could easily render your bike essentially worthless if the motor grenades itself due to poor workmanship.

I understand that this is not a horrifically difficult task for any skilled "shade-tree" mechanic, but I would urge caution to those that have remaining or extended warranties through Mama-Kaw, to consider the ramifications of not using a certified Kawi mechanic / shop to do this type of service.

I too like doing most of my service myself, knowing that the work got done, and done properly.  However, in the case of invalidating Factory warranties, I'm truly now considering taking my bike to a Kawi Shop to have this servicing done.
When my warranty is no longer valid, I will most certainly reconsider doing this work myself, or hiring a trusted wrench to do it for me.  But until that time or mileage comes, I think I'll take the safe route, and find a Certified Kawi shop to do the work for me.
Do I think they do better work?? Not really, but I'll still have the factory warranty behind me, and sleep better as a result.

As reference, I have a 2012, 20k miles, and just extended my factory warranty for an additional 3 years last March.  I will likely do it again at the end of that 3 years, if I still own the bike - which i intend to.   :great:

Food for thought.

gr
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: connie_rider on November 29, 2017, 04:12:13 pm
GR, in reference to the Warranty you have a valid point.
One that I have also pondered.

NOTE: We take that chance with everything we do to our bikes.
          ie; Flash's, headers, suspensions, windshields, bar mods, etc..

My concern is more; Will the job be done right.
    less, they might void my warranty if I do it myself.

Sadly, I've lost faith in taking the bike in for Kawasaki to do the work.

With that in mind, I have more faith that the job will be done right if I do it myself or have it done by a competent mechanic.

Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know "you" did a valve adjust?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Guest on November 29, 2017, 04:14:48 pm
Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know you did a valve adjust?  >:D
Then the problem becomes Kawasaki will accuse you of not performing mandatory maintenance.

It's a moot concern, for me, as the warranty on my 2009 C14 is long expired.  But I understand why those still under warranty may have reason to use a dealer for service.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on November 29, 2017, 04:42:41 pm
There's an over concern on the warranty issue being expressed. Remember that in the magnuson moss act, the warranty is not voided unless damage occurs from the work / modification that was done, and the damage can be directly linked causally to that work / modification. Steve
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: jwh20 on November 29, 2017, 06:37:23 pm
With that in mind, I have more faith that the job will be done right if I do it myself or have it done by a competent mechanic.

Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know you did a valve adjust?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

Basically the same way you might "prove" that you did an oil change at the recommended interval.  It used to be that if you had a bearing failure and had NOT had the oil change done at the dealer, they could deny your warranty claim.  But the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (mentioned by Steve) clarified this situation.  If you changed the oil yourself you need some sort of paper trail and generally a note that you changed the oil at XX,XXX miles on a certain date along with a receipt for oil and filter would be enough.

So for a valve check/adjust a valve measurement map, some receipts for shims, gaskets, and anything else, plus a note of the mileage would be enough to "prove" that it was done.  Of course if the dealer took the top-end apart and discovered that someone failed to replace the oil-tubes or left one of the cam holder bolts out, then they could deny a warranty claim that was RELATED to that error.  It would be improper for them to deny a final-drive claim for a missed or botched valve check but it might be acceptable to deny a burned valve claim if the valve check were found to be improperly done.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on November 29, 2017, 08:08:34 pm
I agree with the previous two posts, and had similar concerns until this Magnuson Moss law was shown to me.  You might need to consider that you may actually run into more warranty issues if you choose to do nothing, since the valve checks and adjustments are listed clearly in the periodic maintenance section of the owners manual and service manual.   Not doing the check and adjustments and having something related may void the warranty.  Here is one way I would prove this work was done.

(http://users.etown.edu/r/ruttersm/cog/valvescheckedsharpie.jpg)

Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ghostrider990 on November 30, 2017, 02:31:11 am
Relevant, Valid, Democratic Discussions fellas.  :beerchug:

gr
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: connie_rider on November 30, 2017, 03:42:26 pm
Being me, I'll stir the "Relevant, Valid, Democratic discussion. <evil grin>
I'll alter my earlier thought with a "small mod"....   O:-)

Plus: If you don't tell them, how can Kawasaki know "you" did didn't do a valve adjust?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on November 30, 2017, 03:50:26 pm
That's actually a good question.  I suppose for the "did you do the valve check part" they could bring in a team of forensic scientists and look for microscopic marks on the cams or buckets from the feeler gauges.  My giveaway would be cat hair, since that gets everywhere and I'm sure its in my engine somewhere.  The not doing it part, may be tougher.  No evidence of the former?  ::)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: connie_rider on November 30, 2017, 03:56:19 pm
Particularly if I write something similar to your (Valve adjust done) "note" on top of my valve cover.. <sneaky grin>  ;)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: My valve adjust ain't due yet.
       I'm just stirrin' the discussion and thinkin' "sneaky"..
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Devasya on December 01, 2017, 03:34:06 pm
I don't want to do it myself.  ::)

I don't want to pay the shop rate for a dubious job.  :-\

SO I guess I am going to ride this bike for 20,000 miles or so and then sell it. :truce:
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Staylo on December 01, 2017, 05:12:53 pm
I don't want to do it myself.  ::)

I don't want to pay the shop rate for a dubious job.  :-\

SO I guess I am going to ride this bike for 20,000 miles or so and then sell it. :truce:

This is exactly why older Ducati’s are almost always for sale with odometer readings in multiples of 6000 miles.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on December 01, 2017, 10:28:23 pm
Started MC today after first valve adjust.  Started right up...purred like a kitten.  Still have to finish other periodic maintenance before putting everything back together, but was exciting to hear it start right up again.  My most important lesson learned?....patience...oh, and triple check everything...

Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on December 01, 2017, 10:39:54 pm
Nice job Scott!   :beerchug:  Go slow, follow steps, and it’s doable.  :great:  Any results to report?  How many were out of spec?
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on December 01, 2017, 11:20:08 pm
Ten of sixteen out of spec tight...7 of them were exhaust valves...most were just barely out of spec...this was at 18,156 miles...
Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on December 01, 2017, 11:25:29 pm
Amazing how when doing your own valve checks you find so many out of spec. A dealer checks them and says “all in spec, good to go”. 
Thanks and good info to know.  Repeating this seems appropriate......
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ghostrider990 on December 06, 2017, 08:23:50 pm
Ten of sixteen out of spec tight...7 of them were exhaust valves...most were just barely out of spec...this was at 18,156 miles...
Scott

Assume you actually "adjusted" those that were just {slightly} out of spec??

And just so it can be said:  I cannot remember a time in my adult life where my rear-end puckered harder than the first time I started-up my bike after I completed my first solo valve job on my Aprilia!!!  :truce:

I KNOW that feeling.....it was euphoric!

gr
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on December 07, 2017, 12:48:06 am
Adjusted all ten... all intakes at mid range of spec and all exhausts at upper range of spec now...installed speed bleeders and flushed all brake and clutch fluids...installed vacuum lines on throttle bodies and synced them...flushed and filled coolant...changing oil and reinstalling all fairings and bodywork tomorrow...running beautiful so far, but you’re right...pucker factor was high on first start!
Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: ghostrider990 on December 07, 2017, 12:38:00 pm
Thinking  more about this process overnight, I have a question for the group:

I don't necessarily know what needs to be removed once the plastic and gas tank are off the bike to have access to the head space within the frame.  I'll consult the FSM today.....

I have ALOT of wires under the hood, with a Fuzeblock on the left side that is FULL, and a Rostra unit
on the right side, running the bulk of the wires over the frame near the relay block.  It's tidy, but not particularly
"modular", if that makes sense.

Will all of this wiring impede the normal valve check process?  How much of the OEM harnesses and looms, need to be moved or removed during this process?

I know that's a big question, but I'm wondering how troubling this will be someone at a shop to do?
I soldered-in most of my connections, and don't think they'll all be easily removed or pushed aside for engine access.

thanks,
gr
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on December 07, 2017, 01:01:25 pm
Thinking  more about this process overnight, I have a question for the group:

I don't necessarily know what needs to be removed once the plastic and gas tank are off the bike to have access to the head space within the frame.  I'll consult the FSM today.....

I have ALOT of wires under the hood, with a Fuzeblock on the left side that is FULL, and a Rostra unit
on the right side, running the bulk of the wires over the frame near the relay block.  It's tidy, but not particularly
"modular", if that makes sense.

Will all of this wiring impede the normal valve check process?  How much of the OEM harnesses and looms, need to be moved or removed during this process?

I know that's a big question, but I'm wondering how troubling this will be someone at a shop to do?
I soldered-in most of my connections, and don't think they'll all be easily removed or pushed aside for engine access.

thanks,
gr
GR, I have pictures of the how the wires get routed around the fairing stays and attach to the sub frame brackets, etc  (Suggest that anybody should do that for reassembly).   The problem would be there are too many photos to share to answer your question.  I don't want to keep going back to Fred's videos, but fast forwarding through the removal and assembly sections is the best way to see the wire routing and what needs to get removed or pushed aside. 

A shop may not understand your custom wiring or put it back the way you originally had it.  Some of your custom wiring may need to be removed depending on slack? The wiring up and over the frame shouldn't be an issue, but that bracket with the relays does need to be removed and laid to the left side to remove one of the fairing stays.  Only you may be able to answer your question if you want to figure it all out before sending to a shop.    HTH.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on December 07, 2017, 01:09:13 pm
Gr,
Can’t speak to your extra wiring, but from my recent experience, no need to remove gas tank...oem wiring harnesses will just droop down out of the way to get to the valve cover...several different electrical plugs to disconnect along the way...not real difficult, just requires patience...take lots of pictures too.
Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: cuda on December 24, 2017, 09:48:12 pm

It would be nice if we could all get along, as the great community we obviously are.  Otherwise, I think the board should consider taking some kind of action, whatever that's deemed to be.  Just my two cents....

Personally I was glad to see a post from Fred again. There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:

I agree / know it ALL
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Rock on December 26, 2017, 09:48:47 pm
All:

Being the frugal Connie rider that I am I waited till 25,000 for first valve adjust couple weeks ago. I'm a 65 plus 'mild' rider, pushing the throttles only occasionally to afterburner! :)  I really didn't think my valves would be "out of spec"  Yeah, you could say I took a chance but this has not been my first rodeo!

My mechanic in Atlanta went through my entire bike; four intake valves only out of spec! Said everything else looked good in the valve train area. no pitting, nothing wrong or even close to concerns. Asked me what brand of oil I have been using: Shell Rotella 5-40         T6 :great:great:

Gave me the valve map for my file. Did all fluids, brakes, adjusted this and that, felt really good riding back out of Atlanta to Columbus.

I did the valves on my 99 and 2000 C10 years ago but don't want to mess with this C14. 

Then last week I rode down to SISFs in Tampa and got FLASHED! He recommended I take out the baffle in my Delkevic and I have done so. The sound is a little louder until 6K then it really makes a nice sound :great:

I'm going to have to be careful with the throttle now 'cause the bike is getting easy to "go fast"! In every gear!


Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: seagiant1 on December 26, 2017, 10:28:04 pm
Hi,
       Good deal!

I just did a valve job on my wifes Honda Element. (Easy!)

Will do my Element next time home.

As far as the valves on the C14....

Probably will let Steve S. do mine!

Of course no more than I get to ride....

Might be awhile! :(

Yes! The C14 WANTS to do 90, just so it can feel good! ;D >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: LURCH on December 27, 2017, 01:16:48 am
 just a little reminder and I'm sure everyone has done it once you're finished the valve job always rotate the engine three or four times to make sure there's no contact
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Motor Psycho on January 07, 2018, 08:50:52 pm
On page two of this thread TEXAS CONCOURS 14 said:
For those of you planning on doing a valve adjustment on a 2010 C14 or newer, be aware that the timing marks are different that those shown in Fred's video (performed on a 2008 or 2009).  That is why you need to refer to the proper-year manual as well as the videos. Check out posts by 4Bikes for helpful info.

Does anyone have a good picture of the marks on the newer bikes. I have the paper service manual for my 2015, but it only has an illustration. And the illustration is not very clear and leaves a little to be desired

Thanks
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on January 07, 2018, 09:39:59 pm
Motor Psycho,
PM me your email address and I will send a couple pics...I can’t figure out how to post pics here...
Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Motor Psycho on January 07, 2018, 10:06:16 pm
Thanks
PM sent
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on January 07, 2018, 10:38:51 pm
The link to the photos can be found in this thread. I included them the first time I did the adjustment.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/observations-after-the-second-valve-check/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/observations-after-the-second-valve-check/)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: khager01 on January 08, 2018, 12:14:54 am
Thanks for the link 4bikes, a lot of good info there.  I bookmarked it for future use. :great:
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on January 08, 2018, 12:48:56 am
Motor psycho
Email pics sent...
Scott
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on February 04, 2018, 10:19:40 pm
Question, Trying to remove right side subframe strut, there is this piece of plastic in front of it. How does this come out? Image at link
https://imgur.com/a/q7v7O
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on February 04, 2018, 11:35:13 pm
IIRC, the radiator heat shroud tilts forward after you remove the horn bracket and remove the top radiator bolts and tilt that forward. The whole adjustment is easier if you completely remove the radiator. That said, I can’t remember if that subframe member can be wiggled out before those steps.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on February 04, 2018, 11:44:58 pm
Thanks, just figured out I was going to have to remove the radiator anyway.  Oh well, was planning on replacing the coolant with SISF's cocktail anyway.  Guess it's just going to be more.  Also, do Canyon Cages have to be removed or can I do it with them still installed.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Road Runner on February 05, 2018, 01:36:10 am
Thanks, just figured out I was going to have to remove the radiator anyway.  Oh well, was planning on replacing the coolant with SISF's cocktail anyway.  Guess it's just going to be more.  Also, do Canyon Cages have to be removed or can I do it with them still installed.

Canyon Cages "do not" have to be removed. I've performed 2 valve checks/adjustments with them in place ...
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: JOHN on February 06, 2018, 05:29:54 pm
When I started this thread, I gave a general thank you to forum members who posted valve check info. Lots of great info here. One that really helped me was 4bikes detailed post. A big thanks. Also the factory manual and Freds vids were a must for me.
I suspect my situation is much like many of yours. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I'm good enough to work on my vehicles without destroying them. I sell parts at a car dealership since 1995, work with professional mechanics everyday. I observe and learn, and I know my limits and know when to ask for help. I had to do my research before deciding that I could do this valve job myself. One of my coworkers rides a 2004 FJR, has done it on that bike twice, told me not too bad and I could handle it.
One main factor for me, like many of you, is that paying a bike dealership to do the work (quoted 4.8 hours) was never an option. I don't have a distrust of factory techs like some people, I work with techs all day. I know its hard for them to make a living without working fast. Knowing this, a tech getting only 4.8 hrs to do a Concours valve check and adjustment would hate doing it and maybe rush the job. I understand. I wouldn't do this for 4.8 hours pay. No way.
I bought a harbour freight bike lift, a gasket kit and sparkplugs from Murphs, and dove right in. Learned a lot, had some fun, no issues during the job.
Even though I double checked all my work, was confident everything was put together correct and engine was in time, it was still stressfull when I reached up and hit the starter button. It was such a sweet sound. Had to get a friend to help sync throttle bodies, and it went smoothly also. Either I'm really lucky or this job isn't as bad as I had built it up in my mind to be.
As others before me have said, removing the radiator is a no brainer. Easy to do and makes access to engine way better. Also, a good time to flush it while its out.
Thanks again for all the good info, and good luck to all of you who are about to start a first time valve adjustment.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: City Slicker on February 08, 2018, 08:07:58 am
... it was still stressfull when I reached up and hit the starter button ...


I've just completed my valve adjustment, started it up about half hour ago with exactly the same feeling.

Having access to only the service manual and comments on this forum about the work involved, there were only a couple of gotchas I would have liked to know about beforehand as a first timer.

The first is to be very aware of the dowels under the camshaft caps as you remove them from the engine. It wasn't until I had removed all of them that I realised that they are not firmly in place in either the cylinder head or caps and I managed to lose one somewhere before I realised. I could so easily have dropped one into the crankcase or bore with a bit of bad luck. There are two dowels per cap, seated on the bolts closest to the edge of the cylinder head.

The second is to have had a good understanding of the camchain tensioner installation to ensure that the camchain is tensioned at the end of the process. I got some help from the forum here (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/cam-chain-tensioner-(i-think)-question/msg626378/#msg626378), and thanks for your support with that.

This may not apply to your bike but mine has had a weeping rocker cover gasket for the last 30,000 miles - boy, what a mess! - I opted to use liquid gasket for the rebuild, applied both sides of the gasket and to the plug gaskets as well. I used ThreeBond TB1215, and following the advice on the forum, nipped the bolts down and allowed to cure before final torqueing.

Having prevoiusly replaced the spark plugs I was fearful of the valve check adjust procedure knowing how little space there was to work. However, when you remove the rh engine mount and rocker cover, and work mostly from the right hand side of the bike, there's oodles of room. I did buy a nice tool to work on the cam cap bolts, see Wera Tool-Check Plus (https://static.rapidonline.com/catalogueimages/Product/S86-5625P02WL.jpg) in particular the amazing ratchet handle which handles about 60Nm torque, plenty to get bolts unwound and re tightened with your whole hand on the tool in that space.

To get the space to work, you are going to have to drop the radiator and remove the plastic heat shield behind it. You do not have to remove the rad completely - once you have removed the top two fasteners and one at the lower bracket it will drop down between the exhaust manifold and front mudguard where you can leave it supported or tied up.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: City Slicker on February 08, 2018, 08:23:26 am
If you have access to a 3D printer, I made a tray for the cam buckets and shims that you can print and use next time you have to pull the cams.

You'll need a printer with at least a 240mm bed dimension (9.5 in old money)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on February 28, 2018, 07:29:13 pm
Anybody have the Honda part numbers for the shim's? Kawasaki is saying the 2.225 mm shims are back ordered.   >:(  Three months , finally get a chance to work on the bike, and now parts are the issue   :'( -End rant
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: jwh20 on February 28, 2018, 08:51:27 pm
Anybody have the Honda part numbers for the shim's? Kawasaki is saying the 2.225 mm shims are back ordered.   >:(  Three months , finally get a chance to work on the bike, and now parts are the issue   :'( -End rant

Order them from JakeWilson/RidersDomain. 

https://www.ridersdomain.com/motorcycle-parts/pro-x-valve-shim-p?v=2005-YAMAHA-FJR1300 (https://www.ridersdomain.com/motorcycle-parts/pro-x-valve-shim-p?v=2005-YAMAHA-FJR1300)

2.225 is showing IN-STOCK!  They ship FAST!  (And yes, these are exactly the same shims that Kawasaki sells.)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Slambo on February 28, 2018, 09:25:32 pm
I second that recommendation...excellent service from Jake/Riders domain when I did my valves...
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Buzzard on February 28, 2018, 10:27:09 pm
Here are a couple of tips, things that worked for me. I used a bunch of gallon zip lock bags and bagged hardware, nuts and bolts, as I dis-assembled, and marked each bag, with a felt tip marker, with notations as to where the hardware was from. I then sort of stacked them in order so they were used in reverse order for assembly. I took a couple of egg cartons and cut off the end 4 cups from one. I then duct taped the full 12 holer to the 4 holer, making a 16 hole keeper for the buckets and shims. It was, of course, marked left to right, EX and INT. Before starting the job, be sure you have a torque wrench that will go down to 15 lb ft. My 3/8 inch drive torque wrench started at about 25 lb ft. Have a very good set of feeler gauges on hand, Snap On, Craftsman, a brand you can trust.  By the way, is anyone stockpiling shims? I have eight that came out of my bike, I doubt I'll ever use again. Would rather see them put to good use.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Deepsea on March 01, 2018, 07:00:34 am
Good advice all. When using a torque wrench Never use it at the lowest or highest setting. The opto-mom setting is the central 60% of its total range. Even better limit it to the central 40% for the most accurate results. I know this means more torque wrenches but it is what it is. The most expensive tool you can buy is a cheep torque wrench.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Colt45 on March 04, 2018, 12:47:30 am
Personally I was glad to see a post from Fred again. There have been to many good people leave this forum because of MOB. 75% of his post are belittling to who ever is on the other end.

We shouldn't be the one's struggling to ignore his post. For what ever reason he seems to be a bitter person.

I have no ties to either, just decided to finally speak up with my .02.

Cliff   :beerchug:

I haven't been on this forum much in the last 2 years, but this is the opposite of my experience with MOB and unfair IMO. 

OTOH, I have found Fred officious, and difficult, to be kind, with none but his opinion being valid.   
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on March 05, 2018, 05:44:58 pm
Thanks jwh20, that's what i did. Great resource, and about 1/10th the price of OEM.  Also, they mike out pretty much exactly what they are stamped as.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: jwh20 on March 06, 2018, 12:18:52 pm
Thanks jwh20, that's what i did. Great resource, and about 1/10th the price of OEM.  Also, they mike out pretty much exactly what they are stamped as.

It's my theory that these shims are all made by the same company.  Really, how many shim manufacturers can there be?  But I too have had good results with the ProX shims, they are spot-on size-wise and they have the "1/2" sizes like Kawasaki OEM which HotCams doesn't carry.

But what really frustrates me about shims is that local dealers NEVER have any.  Then you order them from some of the well-known internet-based shops and 3 days after you order you get an email saying "The part is out of stock and will be available in 2 weeks."  GRRRR!

I like that RidersDomain shows what's in stock (and nearly every shim in the catalog is always in stock!) and they don't delay shipping.  I've ordered on Monday and had then delivered on Tuesday.

Glad you got what you needed!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on March 08, 2018, 08:00:16 pm

But what really frustrates me about shims is that local dealers NEVER have any.  Then you order them from some of the well-known internet-based shops and 3 days after you order you get an email saying "The part is out of stock and will be available in 2 weeks."  GRRRR!

That was exactly my experience with Bikebandit and the local dealers.  Local dealers only had Hot Cams kits and then not all sizes but offered to order. Ordered from Bb, two days later, email saying not in stock. called them for a possible substitute, only had Hot Cams full sizes. >:(
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: NukeWorker on March 19, 2018, 10:54:14 am
All finished, thanks so much for everyone's help. Started and ran successfully the first time.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Deepsea on March 19, 2018, 12:00:43 pm
That first start-up is a wonderful feeling indeed. :)
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: connie_rider on March 19, 2018, 04:36:51 pm
I was surprised to find the individual (and complete kit) Hot Cam shims are offered on Ebay.
If you need them, and can wait for them to arrive in 2-3 days, that might be an option.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 19, 2018, 08:49:53 pm
I was surprised to find the individual (and complete kit) Hot Cam shims are offered on Ebay.
If you need them, and can wait for them to arrive in 2-3 days, that might be an option.

Ride safe, Ted


Ted... see response #83 above...

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/first-valve-adjust-observations/msg629027/#msg629027 (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/first-valve-adjust-observations/msg629027/#msg629027)

There's 3 reasons for not being duped into the HC shim kits...

1) expensive as you will never need all of the shims in the kit, prolly only 3 or 4 sizes...
2) there are only 3 of each size in the kit... if you need 4 of the same size... gotta re up...
3) HC shims only come in .05mm increments, which is too wide a span, OEM, Honda, and the Jake / Pro X shims come in half increments, (.025mm) which you will likely need to make them spot on.

But, I did go look on ebay, and if you needed individual shims that are sized as X.00mm or X.05mm, they did sell 5 packs for about $9, not bad, if you don't need shims in the X.025mm and X.075mm sizes.

I also had to check on shipping for the Jake/ProX ones, that runs $7, but they do ship same day if ordered before 4 p.m.
(I always order stuff over the phone, to insure rapid response, and in stock supply)
Pretty quick I suppose.
https://www.ridersdomain.com/motorcycle-parts/pro-x-valve-shim-p?v=2005-YAMAHA-FJR1300 (https://www.ridersdomain.com/motorcycle-parts/pro-x-valve-shim-p?v=2005-YAMAHA-FJR1300)

I was surprised tho, that there was ONE missing shim in that list... the 1.325 shim... jumped from 1.30 to 1.35.  But I don't think ANYONE would need that shim, maybe in 30 years...  :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I think the most common one needed is in the 2.225 zone, and the normal spreads I see coming from the factory during assembly were between the 2.100 to 3.10 range..
Just trying to save people aggrivation, as you don't know which ones you need, till you pull it apart completely..and then, you may end up doing it again, after installing and measuring results.. only to find they needed to be a bit thinner..or thicker...

Pretty much every shim I had to purchase on my adjustment, was a half size shim, and would have made me realy angry if I bought that "kit". I'm not saying the adjustment was only a .025mm, what I mean is that it needed a shim in that incrimental range...

Making a shim map during the process does make the second interval much easier, as at least you know what shim lives in each bucket beforehand, and you can order indivisual ones after recording the clearances, prior to pulling the cams.. and you can also calculate which can be swapped and what needs to be bought...
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Roger B on March 20, 2018, 11:52:33 am
Ordered my shims from Jake Wilson.  They were inexpensive and I put the order through at 5pm and received the shims 1pm next day.   No special shipping option selected.   It might of been a fluke but I was flabbergasted.   I thought they came from out West and I live in Ohio.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 20, 2018, 07:12:12 pm
Ordered my shims from Jake Wilson.  They were inexpensive and I put the order through at 5pm and received the shims 1pm next day.   No special shipping option selected.   It might of been a fluke but I was flabbergasted.   I thought they came from out West and I live in Ohio.

I'm in Ohio also, they are based in Oregon.
BUT... the have dealership programs, and associate programs accross the USA, so when they check inventory, and are filling an order, they can pull from stock and "drop ship" from any of those resources, which makes for speedy delivery, and wise stock rotation...


https://www.ridersdomain.com/Dealer-Program (https://www.ridersdomain.com/Dealer-Program)

Many parts warehouses/distrubtors do this very same thing...
I have had tires, batteries, and parts ordered from west coast and  mid US places, delivered almost next day, as there may be some sitting in a warehouse in my own state, its great to order and receive product that fast,  they just push a "go" button, and modern tech takes over.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: rcannon409 on March 21, 2018, 11:57:21 am
Ordered my shims from Jake Wilson.  They were inexpensive and I put the order through at 5pm and received the shims 1pm next day.   No special shipping option selected.   It might of been a fluke but I was flabbergasted.   I thought they came from out West and I live in Ohio.

I believe Jake Wilson is part of Rocky Mountain, ATV.  They do have one location, in Utah, as well as another one in Kentucky...or somewhere down south.

When they just had the Utah shop, it was great to be by them. They always had what you wanted, over the counter. Now, its a 50/50 sort of thing because it might be in stock, but its in the other location.  Still, no big deal. I've never waited more than 3 days for anything.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Todd on March 21, 2018, 04:12:21 pm
Recently had my first valve check/adjust performed on my 2010 C14 with 36,000 miles (yeah, I know) by the local "reputable" Kawasaki dealer.

Paid just under $700 including the gasket kit.   Dealer said all valves were in spec and no adjustments were needed.   Prior to this service, the bike was still running and performing consistently well just like when it was brand new.

The vast majority of the time, except for a couple days at the track over the years,  I'm an easy rider, rarely rapping the engine into the higher RPMs.  Most miles are easy cruising miles.

Did I get lucky or screwed?   Bike still runs exactly as it always has.   Feeling a bit like a $700 chump.

Thanks,
Todd
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: 4Bikes on March 21, 2018, 04:26:42 pm
Based on the reports for the checks and adjustments by owner’s and trusted mechanics, all in spec seems to be implausible.   ::).  It is possible they were in spec, but ideally should have been adjusted to optimal while being in there. Did they give a map with the measured clearances?
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Bud on March 21, 2018, 04:51:10 pm
My thoughts are that if I'm paying $700, they better have pulled the cams and adjusted all to the loosest end of the spec.  I called an independent shop yesterday in Clarksville, IN inquiring about the cost of a valve adjustment.  I told them I wanted all adjusted as stated above and that I wanted a shim map as well.  They said they had a third party that did valve adjustments for them and that they'd get back to me.  Still waiting.  I bet I scared them off with my requirements for the job.  We'll see.....It seems the only way to have any piece of mind about whether anything was done, is to check them yourself before and have them leave the cover unfastened so that you could verify the clearances after.  I feel good about doing everything involved except for pulling the cams.  I've done that before on my GS1100GK, but not on the C14.  It would be a costly mistake if I messed up on the timing of the cams.  Seems like we should be having more tech sessions to teach valve adjustments to those of us interested in doing them on their own.  If a knowledgeable member wants to teach C14 valve adjustments, I'd agree to host in Tell City, Indiana.  Have garage.  Will host.  We have some really nice county roads to experience afterwards!
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Deepsea on March 21, 2018, 05:15:25 pm
If you pulled the cam's on your GS then you can do the same on your C14. It's not much different, just more plastic to remove first.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Bud on March 21, 2018, 05:40:06 pm
The Suzuki is mine.  The C14 belongs to my son.  Screwing up my bike is one thing, screwing up his is quite another.  I'm really on the fence about doing his.  Maybe the thing to do is just do a check so he knows where things stand and let him deal with it after that.  We'll see.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Todd on March 25, 2018, 12:03:54 am
Thanks for the reponsde 4Bikes.   I checked the paperwork associated with the valve check and no, they didn't provide me any valve clearance measurements, just a bill.  :-(
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Roger B on March 26, 2018, 01:20:47 pm
Can your son help you, would be a great father / son project.   I did my own...YOU CAN DO IT, sounds like an Adam Sandler movie.   The reason I did it myself was 2 fold just like your reasons.  I want to save money and to have it done correctly.   I think the latter was my biggest driver.  I set all of them toward the looser setting of the range and cleaned things up while all the bodywork was off and did other maintenance at the same time.    Was also concerned that they wouldn't put it back together with the correct fasteners in each spot.    The bodywork and fasteners require some pictures or documenting to make sure everything is routed per stock after assembly.    If you are a paid mechanic that has only so much time or hasn't done a C14 before might not be as particular.

Maybe someone on COG would do it for you for less $s and already has the experience.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Deepsea on March 27, 2018, 03:38:21 pm
Shims under buckets are pretty much universally the same. Just different "Stuff" to move out of the way. If you have the time to not hurry then just about anyone can do this. You'll need a camera/phone, a Good torque wrench and patience. Take photo's as it comes apart and pay attention to where Each fastner belongs. If you get stuck on something post the photo's here, you'll get lots of "Help". One thing I have found to help is when you get the cams aligned and see the "Marks" wipe them off with a Q tip and alcohol then use a dap of fingernail polish or whiteout to highlight the alignment marks and take a photo. Be sure to count the cam chain links between timing marks. Also tie a string or safety wire to the chain so it doesn't fall into the cases.
Title: Re: First valve adjust observations
Post by: Buzzard on March 27, 2018, 03:49:27 pm
Bud, I did my valve adjustment this winter. Getting the cam timed isn't difficult, and it is very obvious when it is correct. My greatest problem came from letting the bike sit for a while when I had to order shims. Then the mental images of what went where, and in what order, faded. That is why I put hardware in gallon zip lock bags, an individual bag for each operation, and marked them well, then stacked them in the order that they were filled. That helped. Also, the videos from Fred Harmon can be an asset, just to refresh the memory while reassembling. A trip through Murph's Kits page is a good idea, deciding if you want to go with new cam cover gasket, spark plugs, the slightly oversize O Rings for the cam position sensors, and such.