Author Topic: Fob Question  (Read 8733 times)

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Offline Alf

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Fob Question
« on: February 26, 2014, 12:49:41 am »
Wondering if anyone can tell me the difference between the fob and spare fob?  My new to me ride only has one fob. I see the spare fob (21175-256) and the fob key (21175-726) are about $27 and $212 respectively.  What's the difference in functionality between the two?

Alf

Offline sdkoskey

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2014, 12:57:20 am »
The manual goes into specifics of what each does but my understanding is that the spare is a passive fob meaning it needs to be held up against the key housing for it to work.  The bigger fob is powered and can be in your pocket for the bike to pick it up.

Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 12:58:38 am »
The manual goes into specifics of what each does but my understanding is that the spare is a passive fob meaning it needs to be held up against the key housing for it to work.  The bigger fob is powered and can be in your pocket for the bike to pick it up.
Bingo.  :great:

Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2014, 01:04:14 am »
So, if you have the spare fob, and lose the fob key, do you still have to spring for a new kipass ecu?  Or would you have to lose both to have to go to that extent. Basically, is it worth having a spare fob key, if you already have the spare fob?
-James
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Offline Zarticus

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 02:44:11 am »
Is the bike a new left over or is it used?. If it's new they HAVE to give you the spare fob. I did not get it with my new 2012 &  I called the dealer & explained but they said they did not have it & that they did not think new bikes came with a spare, I told them that according to Kawasaki the bike comes with a spare fob & if they don't have it then I would contact Kawasaki directly. Next day I got a call from the dealer & they said they "found" it .
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Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 02:47:42 am »
I have the fob and the spare fob. If I were to lose the fob, is having the spare fob enough to get the kipass ecu programmed to accept a new fob, or do you need to have the ecu programmed to accept another fob before you lose the original?

As expensive as getting a spare fob would be, it would seem more expensive to have to buy a new ecu and a fob.
-James
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Offline Bruiser

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 03:02:22 am »
Alf, do yourself a favor, and have a locksmith make some copies of the little key in your spare fob. I use one I f these  exclusively for opening the gas filler and the bags. I have heard of others breaking off the  stove knob key, so I just keep it in the ignition all the time
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Offline Pistole

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2014, 06:55:48 am »
new bikes : one fob and one card.

both can start the bike.

older bikes came with two fobs.

.

Offline Sailor Rich

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2014, 10:45:56 am »
You can have I believe 4 fobs programed into the ECU by the dealer. My 09 came with 2 and one did not function.
So a new one was registered into the ECU.

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2014, 01:23:38 pm »
Yes. You only need one working fob, of either type, to start the bike and also allow the bike to be programmed to recognize new fobs, again of either type.

In my opinion, we should always maintain two working fobs for a C-14. If one is lost, damaged or simply fails (never heard of that but it could happen I guess) then I suggest getting another one at the soonest opportunity.

Brian

I have the fob and the spare fob. If I were to lose the fob, is having the spare fob enough to get the kipass ecu programmed to accept a new fob, or do you need to have the ecu programmed to accept another fob before you lose the original?

As expensive as getting a spare fob would be, it would seem more expensive to have to buy a new ecu and a fob.
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Offline Gypsy JR

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2014, 01:35:34 pm »
How much does a new fob cost, to keep as a spare? And I assume the dealer would have to program it into the ECU ?
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Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2014, 03:05:33 pm »
How much does a new fob cost, to keep as a spare? And I assume the dealer would have to program it into the ECU ?

I'll ask my dealer today when I go to pick up my factory service manual.
-James
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Offline Dalroo

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2014, 07:53:41 pm »
Is the bike a new left over or is it used?. If it's new they HAVE to give you the spare fob. I did not get it with my new 2012 &  I called the dealer & explained but they said they did not have it & that they did not think new bikes came with a spare, I told them that according to Kawasaki the bike comes with a spare fob & if they don't have it then I would contact Kawasaki directly. Next day I got a call from the dealer & they said they "found" it .

That exact same thing happened to me on my 2010.
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Offline Alf

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 09:10:03 pm »
From what I can tell, they cost about $27 for the spare and $212 for the main.  I'm sure this will make sense when I have the bike in my garage and an owner's manual to look over, but does the key "lock" into the ignition if the fob is not present?  If I have a key, but no fob am I stranded?

Alf

Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 09:27:49 pm »
From what I can tell, they cost about $27 for the spare and $212 for the main.  I'm sure this will make sense when I have the bike in my garage and an owner's manual to look over, but does the key "lock" into the ignition if the fob is not present? YES If I have a key, but no fob am I stranded? YES

Alf
If I recall there is a work around for your second question. Brian should be along shortly to confirm this, but I think he makes some type of bypass switch.

Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 09:29:26 pm »
Yes. You only need one working fob, of either type, to start the bike and also allow the bike to be programmed to recognize new fobs, again of either type.

Hey Brian,
Just thinking out loud: Lets say you lost both FOB's. If you took the ignition housing apart, and disabled the key lock (physically), would the bike turn on if you turned the key to the "ON" position? And I don't even mean start...I mean just turn on enough that you could connect the KDS?
We already know the bike will start without KiPass...the spare passive FOB (2010-up) has no KiPass features at all...it only has immobilizer functions, to unlock the key....and the bike will start.

How much does a new fob cost, to keep as a spare? And I assume the dealer would have to program it into the ECU ?

The passive FOB is around $35 bucks, and yes, it must be registered to the bike. I think the full KeyFOBs are a couple hundred bucks or so?

That exact same thing happened to me on my 2010.

Yup, happened with my 2010 as well. I bought it lightly used, and it came with ONLY the full sized keyFOB. The previous owner swore up and down that it was all he received from the dealer when he bought the bike brand new. I bought a new spare passive FOB and had it registered to the bike....and just two weeks ago, the previous owner of the bike emailed to tell me he found the missing passive FOB. He mailed it to me, so I should have it soon. Two years late is better than not at all, right?...lol. So now I'll have three working FOB's...I'm pretty clumsy by times, but I shouldn't lose all three of them...lol.
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 09:36:22 pm »
If the key is in the 'OFF' position, yes the key is locked in the ignition. If the key is in the FSS position, then you or anyone else can freely remove the ignition key without a fob or anything else; it is not recommended you leave the key in this position when leaving the bike.

With no fob, a C-14 cannot be started or 'hot wired' in any practical, financially viable way. The ECU will not provide spark even if the engine can be made to turn over (i.e., 'hot wired'). You need a valid, recognized fob to start a C-14. You need a fob to start the bike and if you do not have one w/in a few feet of the bike, it ain't gonna' start and you are gonna' be needin' a two truck or strong friends to push it.

Someone else already gave the cost of the fobs in an earlier post.

I also want to point out again that the fobs are not programmed, the bike is programmed to recognize the fob. Same thing with the tire pressure sensors, they are not programmed, the bike is programmed to recognize them and use the data from the appropriate sensor in the correct location (front vs. rear). This service is normally done by a Kawasaki dealer (or anyone with KDS 3 software / hardware) and the usual charge seems to be about 1/2 hour of labor at the dealer's rate.

To anyone new to C-14's, I strongly suggest you read the owner's manual and get to know how this system works from an owner's point of view. Learn how to use the built- in function when the fob battery goes dead. If you do not have an owner's manual, you can download one from Kawasaki I believe. Again, learn from the manual; the information on various forums is all over the place regarding accuracy and a lot of it is simply wrong. By all means read and participate in the forums but I always suggest starting off reading those very few pages of the O.M. that pertain to the new and still pretty rare features of this bike. One can learn how KiPass works in an hour or two and the system will be much less mystical and a lot more user friendly.

By the way, I am giving a short seminar about the 'new fangled' items specific to the C-14 at this year's national rally in TN. Nothing too technical, just a good overview of what is on the bike that is new from, say, a  C-10 and similar bikes (KiPass, the tire pressure monitoring system, COP or coil on plug, fuel injection, the fuel pump and removing the fuel tank, et. al) for the average user. Please feel free to attend, applaud loudly, shower the speaker with praise, leave tips and even throw money (paper money only, please) but especially, maybe pick up a tip or two that will make owning a C-14 a more pleasant experience. Or as I like to think of it: how to make the machine serve you rather than the other way around....  ;D

Brian

From what I can tell, they cost about $27 for the spare and $212 for the main.  I'm sure this will make sense when I have the bike in my garage and an owner's manual to look over, but does the key "lock" into the ignition if the fob is not present?  If I have a key, but no fob am I stranded?

Alf
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 09:54:08 pm »
No, the ignition switch authenticator is separate but tied to the KiPass ECU and must pass along the "OK DOKEY" (technical term for what is commonly called the encryption algorithm :-)  ) for the other ECU to generate any spark. In the end, that is the deal- killer in out witting KiPass: you can make the bike crank, you can make the fuel pump pump, I think you may even get the fuel injectors to inject (not sure about that) but in the end, the ECU (I think of that one as the 'engine ECU' but that is not the proper nomenclature really) MUST be authenticated by the KiPass ECU to provide spark.

So if an RF fob is used, the KiPass ECU itself authenticates the fob and away you go. But if an RFID fob is used, the ignition circuit (and it is an entire circuit, not just a switch, solenoid and actual ignition switch- it chats via the CANBUS system on board the bike) in the ignition switch housing authenticates the fob, then authenticates by representation to the KiPass ECU and again, away you go. Hacking into that circuit will not get you around KiPass. I even make 'circuit hacks' or harnesses as I call them in polite company.  :D

On a side- line topic, I heard way back in the early days of the C-14 that a dealer had the ability to start a C-14 without a valid fob but with software and a laptop. However, I have never heard of that again, never got that verified, and have never gotten a positive response from any dealer I have spoken with about this. I think it was urban legend in the end. But as you have "the software", you are in a better position to really debunk that rumor than I am.

Brian


Hey Brian,
Just thinking out loud: Lets say you lost both FOB's. If you took the ignition housing apart, and disabled the key lock (physically), would the bike turn on if you turned the key to the "ON" position? And I don't even mean start...I mean just turn on enough that you could connect the KDS?
We already know the bike will start without KiPass...the spare passive FOB (2010-up) has no KiPass features at all...it only has immobilizer functions, to unlock the key....and the bike will start.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 10:03:02 pm »
No, my little doo- dad only bypasses the KiPass activation switch, not KiPass itself. The activation switch is the momentary switch under the key housing that you press down to 'wake up' KiPass and if that switch sticks, and it does on occasion, you cannot power the system up. But even with my work- around in place, you still need a valid, functioning fob to start a C-14.

And the bike has to have a working, valid, functioning fob to register another fob so everyone with a C-14 should always have two working fobs; if one is lost or damaged, it should be replaced fairly quickly because if the second and last valid fob is lost, KiPass cannot be programmed to recognize any fob. The fix for losing all the fobs is a new KiPass ECU which is expensive.

For anyone who is interested, the system is called "MISTY" and is based on a 140 bit encryption algorithm patented by Mitsubishi, the company that makes KiPass and all associated parts.

Brian

If I recall there is a work around for your second question. Brian should be along shortly to confirm this, but I think he makes some type of bypass switch.
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 10:50:14 pm »
No, the ignition switch authenticator is separate but tied to the KiPass ECU and must pass along the "OK DOKEY" (technical term for what is commonly called the encryption algorithm :-)  ) for the other ECU to generate any spark. In the end, that is the deal- killer in out witting KiPass: you can make the bike crank, you can make the fuel pump pump, I think you may even get the fuel injectors to inject (not sure about that) but in the end, the ECU (I think of that one as the 'engine ECU' but that is not the proper nomenclature really) MUST be authenticated by the KiPass ECU to provide spark.

Yeah...I kind of already answered my own question while I was out walking the hound dog...lol. I assumed there was a digital 'handshake' between the steering lock ECU and the KiPass ECU to allow the bike to start.
I wasn't really concerned with spark or cranking or anything...only to get the power on enough to connect the KDS and add a new FOB. It's not like it matters anyway...I'm far to lazy to test it...and I have enough FOBs as it is...lol.
I was only scheming on how to cheat the system to connect the KDS to be able to register a new FOB as opposed to replacing the KiPass ECU.


On a side- line topic, I heard way back in the early days of the C-14 that a dealer had the ability to start a C-14 without a valid fob but with software and a laptop. However, I have never heard of that again, never got that verified, and have never gotten a positive response from any dealer I have spoken with about this. I think it was urban legend in the end. But as you have "the software", you are in a better position to really debunk that rumor than I am.

Brian

There's no way of starting the engine (without a FOB) with the KDS that I'm aware of, and I've read all of the manuals I could get my hands on.
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Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2014, 11:16:46 pm »
And the bike has to have a working, valid, functioning fob to register another fob so everyone with a C-14 should always have two working fobs; if one is lost or damaged, it should be replaced fairly quickly because if the second and last valid fob is lost, KiPass cannot be programmed to recognize any fob. The fix for losing all the fobs is a new KiPass ECU which is expensive.

Just to be clear, the second FOB could be the emergency FOB, right?  I read my manual, have the wireless FOB, and the backup, and have tested the backup so I know how to work it.  I just want to make sure that if I lose the main FOB, but have the backup, that I won't be needing to buy a new ECU along with a new FOB.  Does that make sense?
-James
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 11:24:20 pm »
Just to be clear, the second FOB could be the emergency FOB, right? 

Yes. ;D
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 11:41:03 pm »
You could power up the system as you describe, and connect the KDS but it would not function as a work- around for not having a valid fob because the KiPass ECU would not let you code it to accept the new fob without first authenticating an existing (pre- pro gamed into the KiPass ECU) fob.

You may be able to code the KiPass ECU to recognize a new TPS sensor without any valid fobs though. That would give you the classic "Good news / Bad news" for the bike's owner: 'The good news is that your new sensor is all set and should work on the bike..... The bad news is that you are going to have to push it to at least 12 MPH to active that sensor 'cause the bike ain't gonna' start'.    :rotflmao:  What a system, huh? All this functionality and it still provides comic relief. :-)

Brian


Yeah...I kind of already answered my own question while I was out walking the hound dog...lol. I assumed there was a digital 'handshake' between the steering lock ECU and the KiPass ECU to allow the bike to start.
I wasn't really concerned with spark or cranking or anything...only to get the power on enough to connect the KDS and add a new FOB. It's not like it matters anyway...I'm far to lazy to test it...and I have enough FOBs as it is...lol.
I was only scheming on how to cheat the system to connect the KDS to be able to register a new FOB as opposed to replacing the KiPass ECU.

<snip>

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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 11:48:02 pm »
You could power up the system as you describe, and connect the KDS but it would not function as a work- around for not having a valid fob because the KiPass ECU would not let you code it to accept the new fob without first authenticating an existing (pre- pro gamed into the KiPass ECU) fob.

 :stupid: Gotcha.

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Offline Alf

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2014, 12:30:14 am »
Thanks for the info.