Author Topic: Fob Question  (Read 8747 times)

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Offline Dalroo

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2014, 01:54:38 pm »
Maybe already addressed, but one thing I learned (thankfully not the hard way) is that you must have at least one working FOB to program any replacements. That can be either the electronic or passive, but one has to work. If not, you get to purchase a new ECU. And correct me if I am wrong, but there is a limit of how many FOBs can be programmed to an ECU - I think the total limit is 6.
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Offline boone

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2014, 02:21:25 pm »
Guys,

  Nuby here,  My question, if I have the spare key/thing in saddlebag on trip for backup and walk into resturant.   Can someone start bike?

thanks

Boone

Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2014, 02:29:07 pm »
Guys,

  Nuby here,  My question, if I have the spare key/thing in saddlebag on trip for backup and walk into resturant.   Can someone start bike?

thanks

Boone
By spare key thing I am assuming you are talking about the credit card fob. No, nobody can start your bike if that is in the saddlebag.

Edit: I hope you have already had a second or third key made so you can get the credit card fob out of your saddlebag.  :great:

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2014, 04:42:32 pm »
Yeah, what Gumby said- thin, white fob, no problem, thick, black fob (easy boys!)- do not leave one of those on the bike because they transmit.

And Tom, if he doesn't have another key, he could not lock the fob in the saddlebag anyway- rememeber, this is KiPass we are talking about here, a well thought out system. In fact, I believe it is the very finest remote authentication system ever used by Kawasaki!

 :D

Brian

Guys,

  Nuby here,  My question, if I have the spare key/thing in saddlebag on trip for backup and walk into resturant.   Can someone start bike?

thanks

Boone
By spare key thing I am assuming you are talking about the credit card fob. No, nobody can start your bike if that is in the saddlebag.

Edit: I hope you have already had a second or third key made so you can get the credit card fob out of your saddlebag.  :great:
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Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2014, 04:55:20 pm »
And Tom, if he doesn't have another key, he could not lock the fob in the saddlebag anyway- rememeber, this is KiPass we are talking about here, a well thought out system. In fact, I believe it is the very finest remote authentication system ever used by Kawasaki!
Not exactly. If one would of used the key in the active fob to lock the saddlebag and then went hiking and lost it down in the Grand Canyon, without a spare key now one would be screwed.  :(

Call me anal :truce:, but I ALWAYS carry a key ring with a saddlebag key, helmet lock key, rear trunk (Givi) key, and a bottle opener. :beerchug: Active fob in pocket ALWAYS, credit card fob in wallet ALWAYS.

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2014, 05:46:04 pm »
Yeah but my point was that just by closing and latching the saddlebag it guarantees one has a key in one's hand at that time and it is really impossible to lock the only key you have in the saddlebag. If a person is going to lose the key later, of course that is a different proposition.

I just carry the normal RF key in a pocket in my pants. As to the other keys, they are on my keyring and now that I think about it, I do leave my helmet lock unlocked on the bike so I guess it would be possible for me to go somewhere, lock my helmet in the helmet lock and only later find out that I did not have the key that would open it.

As to the top box, well I have a Givi and that bad boy closes and locks without needing a key; more than a couple of times I have closed it only to have it flash through my mind that I left the key IN the box. And it has actually happened when my keys were in a riding jacket pocket, I put the jacket in the box and closed (thereby locking) it. The only time that has happened, my wife was with me and had HER keys on her person. But she often locks her handbag in the top box with her keys in there so it is possible that someday both of the keys for the box could end up locked in the box :-(  Now I am thinking I should separate those two keys (helmet lock and top box) and carry them in a pants pocket along with the fob....

Only ever got stuck one time needing a bottle opener but I have been stranded regarding a corkscrew now and again. Saw a fantastic video about how to 'pound' the cork out of a bottle by putting it in a shoe and slamming it and the shoe against a wall.... might be forced to actually try that someday.

Brian

Not exactly. If one would of used the key in the active fob to lock the saddlebag and then went hiking and lost it down in the Grand Canyon, without a spare key now one would be screwed.  :(

Call me anal :truce:, but I ALWAYS carry a key ring with a saddlebag key, helmet lock key, rear trunk (Givi) key, and a bottle opener. :beerchug: Active fob in pocket ALWAYS, credit card fob in wallet ALWAYS.
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Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2014, 07:06:39 pm »
Saw a fantastic video about how to 'pound' the cork out of a bottle by putting it in a shoe and slamming it and the shoe against a wall.... might be forced to actually try that someday.

Excellent video, works like a charm.  :great:


Offline TimR

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2014, 07:40:03 pm »
 :offtopic:  Interesting video. BUT!
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Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2014, 09:21:00 pm »
:offtopic:  Interesting video. BUT!



I figured we had run the fob topic into the ground by now so it must be time to start drinkin.  ;D  :beerchug:

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2014, 12:11:32 am »
Yep the limit of fobs is six but even that is more complicated that it would seem....

The KiPass has six slots of memory reserved for registering fobs, and the slots are one- write only. So the maximum number of fobs that can ever be coded into that ECU is six.

But the ignition switch portion of KiPass also has six slots but they are re-writable memory. Which means that a maximum of six fobs can be programmed into that part at one time- but as new fobs are added, if there are already six registered, the next one overwrites the first slot. So say over the course of time, various owners go through six fobs and someone buys that bike but only gets one fob with it. That person can buy a new fob but the KiPass ECU, which works on the RF side of things, could not be programmed to recognize the new fob (#7 for the bike) because all the available slots have been used. But the ignition switch portion of KiPass, which is an entirely different circuit, CAN be programmed to recognize that very same fob because the first memory slot would be re- used.

Confusing, aint' it?

But from a practical point of view, six fobs really is a lot and it would be doubtful that any C-14 would ever have all six slots used and yet only have one fob available. It could happen but it is a very remote possibility IMO.

Brian

Maybe already addressed, but one thing I learned (thankfully not the hard way) is that you must have at least one working FOB to program any replacements. That can be either the electronic or passive, but one has to work. If not, you get to purchase a new ECU. And correct me if I am wrong, but there is a limit of how many FOBs can be programmed to an ECU - I think the total limit is 6.
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2014, 12:32:37 am »
Yep the limit of fobs is six but even that is more complicated that it would seem....

The KiPass has six slots of memory reserved for registering fobs, and the slots are one- write only. So the maximum number of fobs that can ever be coded into that ECU is six.

On a good note, although the limit is only 6, once registered, they can be disabled and re-enabled when needed.

If you lose a KiPass FOB, you can (and should) have that FOB disabled in the KiPass ECU. If you find it later...in a week, or a year, it can be enabled again so that you can use it if need be.

If anybody buys a new KiPass FOB, they should always make sure that the dealer also registers the immobilizer function of this FOB. The dealer should be aware that it is a separate process all together, but with some of stories I've read about on here, I'd make sure they do it, and check BOTH FOB functions before leaving the dealer parking lot;).

JMTCW. ;D
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Offline ZG

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2014, 12:42:54 am »
I wish the fobs came in different color options...  ;D :beerchug:


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Offline Gumby

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2014, 12:58:59 am »
I wish the fobs came in different color options...  ;D :beerchug:

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Call Otterbox maybe they can make colored fob protectors.




Offline Pistole

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2014, 01:36:54 am »
give you guys some perspective : I have just added a R1200GS watercooled. So , the tall girl (R1200GS) sits next to fat girl (the C14) in the garage.

The C14 uses the KiPass fob. The BMW uses a plain key.

I can now appreciate very much the great convenience of the KiPass fob. I keep the fob in my riding pant's pocket and never even have to think about it during the ride , gas stops , lunch stops , etc.

With the BMW , I always have to remember the key. Remember to remove the key , find a place safe to put the key when getting off the bike , remember to fish out the key before getting into full gear ...

so , hey. KiPass is great.

just remember to make a $1.00 spare key for the panniers/fuel cap , and leave the key on the bike (inserted into a pannier). Leave the Stove Knob alone.

.

Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2014, 03:03:12 am »
Yeah well that 'plain 'ole key' may not be just a key at all. Not sure if those specific models use it but BMW has an 'immobilizer' ring that the key itself communicates with for the bike to start. Do a Google search and find out how many people have been 'protected' from being able to ride their own bike by this security system. So the worst of all words: the complexity of electronic keys without any benefit to the riding of the bike.

Brian

give you guys some perspective : I have just added a R1200GS watercooled. So , the tall girl (R1200GS) sits next to fat girl (the C14) in the garage.

The C14 uses the KiPass fob. The BMW uses a plain key.

I can now appreciate very much the great convenience of the KiPass fob. I keep the fob in my riding pant's pocket and never even have to think about it during the ride , gas stops , lunch stops , etc.

With the BMW , I always have to remember the key. Remember to remove the key , find a place safe to put the key when getting off the bike , remember to fish out the key before getting into full gear ...

so , hey. KiPass is great.

just remember to make a $1.00 spare key for the panniers/fuel cap , and leave the key on the bike (inserted into a pannier). Leave the Stove Knob alone.

.
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Offline Pistole

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2014, 03:56:09 am »
trust you to complicate a simple matter

 ;D

whether the BMW key is "just" a key or a key with a chip to speak to BMW's ews system is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

my opinion lah.

.

Offline stevewfl

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2014, 02:25:19 pm »
The mad pow-ah is contained in the FOB with a  battery   :great:
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2014, 10:15:37 pm »
True enough Steve but I wonder what could be done in a pinch with the RFID 'emergency' fob, being squeezed hard in a C-14 owner's hand, with tightly closed eyes and whispering the incantation?

Brian

The mad pow-ah is contained in the FOB with a  battery   :great:
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2014, 11:04:04 am »

But the ignition switch portion of KiPass also has six slots but they are re-writable memory. Which means that a maximum of six fobs can be programmed into that part at one time- but as new fobs are added, if there are already six registered, the next one overwrites the first slot. So say over the course of time, various owners go through six fobs and someone buys that bike but only gets one fob with it. That person can buy a new fob but the KiPass ECU, which works on the RF side of things, could not be programmed to recognize the new fob (#7 for the bike) because all the available slots have been used. But the ignition switch portion of KiPass, which is an entirely different circuit, CAN be programmed to recognize that very same fob because the first memory slot would be re- used.


Hey BDF,

The programming of the ignition FOBs works slightly different than you described here (I just found out yesterday).

You can have a total of 6 ignition (immobilizer) FOBs, and they are re-writable, but the re-writing is not sequential like you mentioned above. All of the FOB's you have with the immobilizer function, which includes the main keyFOB, and the spare emergency FOB, have to be registered in the KiPass ECU all together, EVERY time. For example, if you already had 5 FOBs registered in the ignition ECU, and you register a new FOB all by itself, it overwrites all 5 of the other FOBs. You would have to register the one new FOB, and all 5 of the other FOBs, all at the same time, in order to have them all function.

Where this becomes a problem...which I also realized yesterday, is when your friendly dealer registers a new spare FOB to the bike. In my case, all I had was the main battery powered KeyFOB, and I had them add a spare Fob. If the technician doesn't know that all of the FOBs available need to be registered to the ignition ECU every time, when he registers the one new spare FOB, he also overwrites the registration of the main battery power KeyFob. Does this make sense? This is what happened to me. I only found out yesterday that my main keyFOB, could no longer be used without the battery (against the ignition), because of how the dealer registered the new spare FOB.

I can re-register it myself of course...but I wonder how many are out there now that have been un-registered when new FOB's were added?...lol. Mine was.

Registering the main KeyFOB's works the same way, except the 6 memory slots are sequential, and are not re-writable. Same as above, all the KeyFOB's would need to be present in order to be registered in the KiPass ECU. So, if you lose a main KeyFOB, and you buy a new one and have it registered, all of the available KeyFOB's will be registered in the KiPass ECU, except the one that is lost. Because the lost KeyFob is not within 1.5 meters of the bike, it is automatically disabled, but as you know, not overwritten. The same would happen with a KeyFOB even if it wasn't 'lost', but not near the bike during the registration process.

So, I have to register all three of my FOB's in the ignition ECU today....if I get ambitious, I'll make a video of the process for Youtube entertainment;).

That's all,
Cory ;D

« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 11:13:05 am by Rembrant »
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2014, 12:05:02 pm »
As I remember, the sequence of registering new fobs to the ign. switch housing has a few steps, and the 'trick' is to ignore everything after the actual step of introducing the new fob. So the re- write, or really erasure of the other fobs can be avoided.

This came up a long time ago with the identical situation: someone had the bike programmed to go with the bike but of course did not have the spare fob with him, only the one he used all the time. They determined the method was to register the new fob and stop: there was more steps in the operation but if they are not done, the ign. portion of the system does not purge any of the [not present] fobs. The person went home, got out his other fob and it still worked with both the RF and RFID portions of the bike.

If I remember right, and this is foggy because remember, I do not have KDS, I have only seen it in use: I believe the sequence is to 'show' the ign. switch housing each fob you want to use in turn, including those already registered by the bike. That is the point at which you stop because what is really happening is that the RFID controller is reading and registering them all over again.

Brian

Hey BDF,

The programming of the ignition FOBs works slightly different than you described here (I just found out yesterday).

You can have a total of 6 ignition (immobilizer) FOBs, and they are re-writable, but the re-writing is not sequential like you mentioned above. All of the FOB's you have with the immobilizer function, which includes the main keyFOB, and the spare emergency FOB, have to be registered in the KiPass ECU all together, EVERY time. For example, if you already had 5 FOBs registered in the ignition ECU, and you register a new FOB all by itself, it overwrites all 5 of the other FOBs. You would have to register the one new FOB, and all 5 of the other FOBs, all at the same time, in order to have them all function.

<snip>

That's all,
Cory ;D
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2014, 12:18:17 pm »
As I remember, the sequence of registering new fobs to the ign. switch housing has a few steps, and the 'trick' is to ignore everything after the actual step of introducing the new fob. So the re- write, or really erasure of the other fobs can be avoided.

I'm going to register all three FOBs today, but when I got my missing spare FOB yesterday, I tried it and it did not work. It just shows a "Key ID Error" on the screen. So, I registered it with the ignition ECU, and it worked just fine afterwards. Only problem is, my other one didn't work after that...lol. So, when I registered the new FOB, it overwrote the existing FOB. I didn't see any way to avoid that...no steps to skip or bypass. According to the manual, they all have to be registered at the same time.

I'll try it again today;).
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2014, 12:24:59 pm »
Well, then I would assume you are right and I am mistaken 'cause you have the software and the bike in front of you :-)

That and all my excess thought power, what little of it there is, is being chewed up on this VVT issue. :-(

Brian

I'm going to register all three FOBs today, but when I got my missing spare FOB yesterday, I tried it and it did not work. It just shows a "Key ID Error" on the screen. So, I registered it with the ignition ECU, and it worked just fine afterwards. Only problem is, my other one didn't work after that...lol. So, when I registered the new FOB, it overwrote the existing FOB. I didn't see any way to avoid that...no steps to skip or bypass. According to the manual, they all have to be registered at the same time.

I'll try it again today;).
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2014, 10:24:55 pm »
OK, so I finally got to try this again this evening. You do have to register ALL of the spare FOB's, including the ignition FOB function of the primary KeyFOB, all at the same time. It doesn't matter if you register one, or two, or three...when you hit "confirm", it overwrites the existing FOB's in the ignition ECU memory. See pic below.

Another thing to note for future reference if nothing else: You do not need any of the ID codes on the OEM bag to register the spare FOBs. Those ID numbers are only required for the primary/main KeyFOBs.

Rem ;D
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Offline BDF

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2014, 10:38:17 pm »
OK, thanks for learning that and passing that along.  :great:

If I am reading what you are saying correctly, you have to have a code to register an RF (battery containing fob) but not an RFID for? If so, then you can actually use the RFID portion of a full RF fob but only in the RFID mode if you do not have the original code? And it would also mean that anyone could use any [non battery] fob on any C-14, even if the fob was used and there is no number?

That would be good because it means there could be some damaged RF fobs around that could still serve someone an a secondary fob used only in the RFID mode. If I am following you correctly....?

Brian

OK, so I finally got to try this again this evening. You do have to register ALL of the spare FOB's, including the ignition FOB function of the primary KeyFOB, all at the same time. It doesn't matter if you register one, or two, or three...when you hit "confirm", it overwrites the existing FOB's in the ignition ECU memory. See pic below.

Another thing to note for future reference if nothing else: You do not need any of the ID codes on the OEM bag to register the spare FOBs. Those ID numbers are only required for the primary/main KeyFOBs.

Rem ;D
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Fob Question
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2014, 10:54:16 pm »
OK, thanks for learning that and passing that along.  :great:

If I am reading what you are saying correctly, you have to have a code to register an RF (battery containing fob) but not an RFID for?

Yes.

If so, then you can actually use the RFID portion of a full RF fob but only in the RFID mode if you do not have the original code?

Yes, I assume so. For the main primary RF FOB, you must have the code with it in order to register it in the KiPass ECU. However, there are no codes required to register that same RF FOB in the ignition ECU.

And it would also mean that anyone could use any [non battery] fob on any C-14, even if the fob was used and there is no number?

That would be good because it means there could be some damaged RF fobs around that could still serve someone an a secondary fob used only in the RFID mode. If I am following you correctly....?

Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing before you asked it...lol. You should be able to use any used FOB, but only for the spare/ignition function, on any C14. If I could get my hands on an old primary RF FOB, with no ID code, I could try to register it in the ignition ECU. As it stands, I can't see why it wouldn't work.



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