Author Topic: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!  (Read 8129 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« on: December 06, 2015, 04:05:38 am »
All,
Save this as one for the books.
First, a brief rundown of what happened;
I pre-purchase inspected the bike for Rick earlier this year.  Found a couple issues no biggies really. Rick purchases and I tow it to my house to do the necessary maintenance and repairs. This included a needed valve adjustment at 10K miles.  Returned the bike to its' new owner and he runs it for about 2500 miles over the next few months.  Get a call from him a few months ago and the bike won't stay running, hard to start if it starts at all. No error codes are coming up on display. I'm thinking, "maybe I missed something/ made a mistake on the repairs/maintenance I did."  So I take a drive up to NY, from just outside DC, ( @300 miles ), to take a look see at this machine and ease my troubled mind as well. after a weekend of this and that, various tests and troubleshooting procedures we are still at zero. New plugs helped very slightly and only for a brief period of time.
Symptoms
Backfiring, running rich, stalling and very hard to start, will not idle at a normal rpm level, black smoke from tailpipe. Plugs come out black with soot from rich running.
Bike was taken to a Kawi dealer, hooked up to a KDS and full system checked with no leads as to the issues. Kawasaki tech line had access to the KDS system and all data. Still no ideas. Kawi's response, Call and let us know what you find!  Really? Thanks a lot Kawi. Thanks for nothing.
Injectors were pulled and checked for flow and leaking. All good there too.
While trying t find time to start thoroughly testing resistances in the harness I get a chance meeting with one of my dealer mechanics. He tells me he just came back from Kawi tech school and they had a bike there exhibiting the same symptoms as mine that he had looked at a few weeks prior. Seems there is a relatively rare failure at the root of all of this.
After listening to him for a few minutes I decide to go ahead and order this particular part from my dealer.   318.00 is my discounted price with tax, this better frigging work. 
Part came in on This Thurs and I picked it up on Friday. 
I tear into the top of the motor once again, ( bike still has no fairings on it but engine is assembled and will start).  Pulled all the brackets and parts, radiator, shrouds, etc. Work my way down to the valve cover and remove it as well. Almost there. 
Many of you have no idea how the VVT ( variable valve timing) system works and it isn't exactly easy to explain how it does its power making magic. Suffice it to say when it works it is a very good thing. 
I remove all the oil feed tubes and before I loosen the camshaft bearing caps I take a socket and crack the camshaft bolt loose on the intake (VVT) cam and oil squirts out of the feed hole and the VVT unit turns what seems to me to be a unreasonably large distance with little or no resistance. I think I am on to something here now and my mechanic friend had the right insight.
I pulled the cam out and proceeded to separate the VVT unit from the end of the camshaft for replacement/inspection.
NOW I KNOW I HAVE FOUND THE PROBLEM.
It's about friggin time!
EBAY camshaft ordered. Now to wait a day or two for it to arrive. In the meantime I can repair the stripped threads on the engine mounting bolt holes with some new Timesert thread repair sleeves.


This is what the inside of the VVT should look like,

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Offline turbo-max

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015, 04:18:38 am »
J-B weld will fix that right up!!!lol..good find man!
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015, 04:28:15 am »
Looks like a new Kawi cam is 540.00!  WITHOUT the 398.00 VVT  :-\ :-\

We aint going there boys and girls!
Matt
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015, 10:20:42 am »
Matt, is that a bad casting for the VVT part and area with the slot eventually broke and caused the problem?
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Offline C. Moore

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 10:41:20 am »
Some very good work there. Always good to find a problem and fix it. That find is way beyond my ham fisted skills.
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 11:28:13 am »
4B,
These are all precision machined pieces. Most like there was an issue in the VVT unit that caused it to "bang" (oil pressure should be damping this motion normally), back and forth causing the damage to the locating dowel and its recesses. SISF will be doing a post mortem exploration of the VVT unit in the near future.
One note; my mechanic also said the Kawi training instructor told him that if you take the cover off off one of these it will be a paperweight from then on.
Matt
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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 11:31:20 am »
Matt, that is an amazing fix also considering the 300 miles trip.  :great:
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015, 11:42:09 am »
4B,
I have to admit, the trip was in part a bit selfish in that I wanted to be 100% sure that Rick wasn't going to be spending a bunch of money repairing something I had worked on, (making sure it wasn't my fault). So While I was up there I figured I'll just drag it home and figure out the problem for him. Gives me something to do in my, (lately nonexistent), free time, and saves him some money as well.
Matt
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015, 12:01:06 pm »
Yes, a huge find, particularly because this is the only bike available with vvt, so the diagnostics for this is going to escape about 100% of mechanics, including very competent ones. Once viewed in the rear mirror, all the problems definitely fit the solution, but to be the first to find this... yes, seriously good work Matt  :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:  Steve
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2015, 03:47:10 pm »

One note; my mechanic also said the Kawi training instructor told him that if you take the cover off off one of these it will be a paperweight from then on.
Matt

the same was said about the vvt unit on a later model 2jzgte engine (toyota supra), but i was successful in disasembly and reassembly of the unit to clean spooge out of it, the car later made 650 rwhp on the dyno with pump gas
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2015, 03:57:58 pm »
ok...so I skimmed this thread.

How the HELL does something like this happen?!

Was the bike abused?Messed with?? Starved of oil?
WTH?!  :o

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Offline Cap'n Bob

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2015, 04:22:11 pm »
     Matt, I kept telling you that it had to be the a cam/variable timing issue. But we were too caught up on rings with the compression issue. Nah, only kidding. You spent a lot of time going through everything that weekend you came up. And obviously a lot more time at home. Anyway, a really good find. Although Rick has been bike less a good portion of the year. I'm sure he will be feeling much better now as well. Not too shabby for a guy who sells tee shirts and bike covers. :)

Offline Rogue Booger

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2015, 04:37:32 pm »
WOW! Great work Matt!
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Offline Throttle 8

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2015, 04:52:53 pm »
Literally going the extra mile! Good work Matt! :beerchug:
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Offline TimR

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2015, 02:29:18 am »
Guys like Matt are what makes this such a great group.   ;)


Good find.
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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2015, 09:53:32 am »
Guys like Matt are what makes this such a great group.   ;)

+2
Good find.
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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2015, 01:09:10 pm »
Matt, is the bike still under warranty? It's very disconcerting that Kawasaki threw in the towel without properly digging into this to determine the cause. I'm very curious how something like this would not be a warranty issue.
Jim

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Offline SilverConnieRider

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2015, 03:53:03 pm »
Looks like a new Kawi cam is 540.00!  WITHOUT the 398.00 VVT  :-\ :-\

We aint going there boys and girls!
Matt

I guess you lost me on that one ^^^

Because you said ...

EBAY camshaft ordered. Now to wait a day or two for it to arrive.

So you ordered a camshaft - Don't you also need a VVT too - or did you have one laying around?

And...

In the meantime I can repair the stripped threads on the engine mounting bolt holes

How did the engine mounting holes get their threads stripped?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 04:48:27 pm by SilverConnieRider »

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2015, 04:25:57 pm »
Guys like Matt are what makes this such a great group.   ;)


Good find.
:iagree:
Matt, any idea how something like this could happen?

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2015, 10:28:09 pm »
Bigfoot and SCR,
I pulled the plug on the 100$/hr diagnostics after a few hundred was spent. figured I would dig until I found it. Got the tip just a few days ago about the VVT and I ordered one from the dealer. Had it sitting here on the bench when I did the disassembly, (thats how I got a pic of a good one). I priced a new camshaft and said "uh, hell no" to 600.00. Ordered one from eBay for 50.00$.  Camshaft is coming from about 40 miles from where I live. 
Last time I pulled this motor apart some of the threads on the Rt side upper engine mount gave up. Knowing it would be a bit before she was back on the road again I decided to not repair them at that time. I purchased a Time-sert set and some extra long sleeves to perform the thread repairs as well as a new 180 piece tap and die set.
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
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Offline Sport Rider

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2015, 01:56:53 am »
Wow!  Just WOW!  Great work Matt!

anyone want to ask that question about a COG membership being worth it? 

 :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2015, 11:35:25 am »
Kudos Matt! Jeez I love this place! ;D
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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2015, 11:51:33 am »
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2015, 01:30:31 pm »
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.

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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2015, 01:31:29 pm »
Wow!  Just WOW!  Great work Matt!

anyone want to ask that question about a COG membership being worth it? 

 :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:

^^THIS^^

It was March when I first discovered COG, at that time it was a tool/resource...hadn't owned a motorcycle in 5 years and wanted to ease into it. Ive now hosted a Tech day and been on a group ride, met great people, planning on attending 2016 National down south and much more...I'm just chalking this up a fluke incident, fortunately i'm in a position to weather the financial $sting$, but in prior years she prolly would've just sat till a few extra sheckles accumulated over the months. Matt has truly been a Godsend and a good friend. BUT, I can only say that I'm probably not that special, that he would do what he has done for me, for anyone else...that's just the kinda guy he is.

 :beerchug:

THANKS Matt!
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