Author Topic: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!  (Read 8827 times)

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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2015, 01:45:21 pm »
Actually, i did complete an oil change in the days prior to the failure...I can't recall if it was the very next ride that it failed, but it definitely happened within the week ...

As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

"So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?"
you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oil pump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.


« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 02:13:18 pm by NYbiomed »
2002 Honda VTR1000F SuperHawk
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2015, 01:57:03 pm »
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not alligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 02:09:36 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2015, 02:15:06 pm »
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not aligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....


The ECU threw NO code, which very much added to the problem unfortunately.... :(
2002 Honda VTR1000F SuperHawk
2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 ABS
1999 Suzuki Katana 750   1993 Yamaha Seca II
1990 Kawasaki EX500      1983 Honda CB1000 Custom

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2015, 08:23:55 pm »
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not aligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....


The ECU threw NO code, which very much added to the problem unfortunately.... :(


understood, but maybe it wedged up just close enough for the pickup to still.see the node...

my question is, what goes on that mating pair of holes that was chewed all up? is it a dowelpin locating the shell to the camshaft?
just curious as I never pulled one apart to look, and the schematic diagram and associated drawings in the manual when I quickly scanned that zone, didn't see a dowel, but surely there is one....

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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2015, 09:07:28 pm »
NYbiomed, I have to agree with you about how awesome Matt is. When I was on my early summer trip, I was heading to meet Matt in person. About 20 minutes away, but bike just quit running. I was in downtown DC, at rush hour. I text Matt and told him I was broke down. 45 minutes later he was there with his truck, and we were loading my bike in the back. We went to his house and Matt found an electrical connection plug that had worked its way loose. Bike was running again, and my trip was saved!

At home I was working on my bikes suspension, and I messed up a part. Guess who was the first to respond to my forum post and next day have a part in the mail.

COG membership definitely has is advantages!

 Thanks again Matt, and hats off to ya!!   :beerchug:
Nicole     Port St Lucie, FL.
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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2015, 09:10:42 pm »
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not alligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....



Oh no, don't even go there. Fingers crossed that this is a simple, defective sensor!
Nicole     Port St Lucie, FL.
2013 C14 Black  
2006 Vmax
IBA # 60267

Offline mattchewn

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2015, 11:01:53 pm »
MOB,
There is a dowel pin ( maybe 3-4 MM Dia.) (supposed to be), pressed into the camshaft. There is an accompanying slot for engagement of the dowel in the inside flange of the VVT actuator.  Both of these locations are destroyed.  The VVT is also a "slight" press fit on the end of the cam with precision machined surfaces for sealing in the oil pressure to the VVT. I was able to separate the 2 parts using the center bolt (loosened) and lightly tapping on it to push the camshaft out of the VVT.  It is actually fit inside the VVT about 3/4 inch. You have to pull the cams to separate these two parts.
Matt

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Offline Egodriver71

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2015, 12:09:05 pm »
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.

I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.
Thomas Mann
Jacksonville, FL

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Offline Bigfoot_16

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2015, 07:38:01 pm »
I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.

Thomas, this may be one of the reasons that the owner's manual says to let the engine run for a minute or two immediately after starting it - even if it's warm - so that the oil can get to all of these components before a load is placed on the engine.
Jim

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2015, 10:23:05 pm »
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
 I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.

I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.

yes, in theory it should work that way, but as there is a solenoid operated spool valve in that circuit a malfunction with ecu signal, or some debris in the valve could prevent the circuit from being actuated to allow flow to close/open the path, and result in some cavitation of oil flow preventing the vvt from finding "home" at idle or startup. This is why I suggested analyzing the valve body and solenoid operation also.
gotta find cause so it doesn't happen again.

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Egodriver71

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2015, 12:26:34 pm »

I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.

yes, in theory it should work that way, but as there is a solenoid operated spool valve in that circuit a malfunction with ecu signal, or some debris in the valve could prevent the circuit from being actuated to allow flow to close/open the path, and result in some cavitation of oil flow preventing the vvt from finding "home" at idle or startup. This is why I suggested analyzing the valve body and solenoid operation also.
gotta find cause so it doesn't happen again.

Very much agree there.  Find the cause, not just replace the bad parts, or you may have the same failure again.
Thomas Mann
Jacksonville, FL

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1930 Indian 101 Scout (the first bike)(still in the garage)
1986 Yamaha Radian (the first modern bike)(Sold)
1996 Kawasaki Vulcan 500LTD (the wife's first bike)
1996 Kawasaki Eliminator (Wife's)
1999 Kawasaki Concours (The Warbird)
2006 Kawasaki Vuclan 900 (Wife's)
2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 (Totaled)
2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 (Second Chance)

Offline Alan_Yucius_FL

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2015, 03:05:09 pm »
   :o   This is all very interesting. Had to chime in just to get the updates. :popcorncouple: Good job Matt ( :sign0098:) on being persistent and getting to the VVT that was mangled enough to cause the problem but not give a error code.     Bob, looks like you were going in the right direction.    Matt, Had you been involved with this motorcycle before you looked at it for Rick?    "Last time I pulled this motor apart some of the threads on the Rt side upper engine mount gave up".  Had someone else been into the motor before you went there?       Why do you think the bike was in need of a valve adjustment with only 10,000 miles?    This is premature according to Kawasaki recommendations isn't it?                Curious, when we change our own oil should we do the complete job is 20 minutes or so or let the oil drain out overnight to get everything out of the motor that could be in there?    Could this cause a problem??     I've been doing it as quickly as possible for years and put as much oil in the filter as it will hold when I turn it horizontally and relocate it back to the motor. Once oil is filled up in window to indicator mark, start the engine and let it idle for a few minutes, check for leaks, shut it off and wait to recheck oil level.    Works for me.                           Once again GOOD JOB   MATT!!!    :bravo_2:

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2015, 03:13:46 pm »
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2016, 10:48:35 pm »
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve

sooooooo.....
did you pull the unit apart yet?
could you do so, and take pictures of the guts? and also maybe give me an idea of any seals internal that I can begin to source as replacement items?
I know the unit is marked "DON'T DISASSEMBLE" so enquiring minds wanna know why, i.e. can re building actually be accomplished?

thanks Bubba... :great: :great: :great:

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2016, 10:58:51 pm »
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve

sooooooo.....
did you pull the unit apart yet?
could you do so, and take pictures of the guts? and also maybe give me an idea of any seals internal that I can begin to source as replacement items?
I know the unit is marked "DON'T DISASSEMBLE" so enquiring minds wanna know why, i.e. can re building actually be accomplished?

thanks Bubba... :great: :great: :great:

  Hey guess where it is - on my flashing bench, right where I put it  :-[ . Matt was here Saturday for a flash, we talked about it but were both way to busy for the post mortem. I'll try to get to it, I'm very interested in what's going on in there, just a time issue. Steve

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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2016, 07:49:52 pm »
    Well, In the end we replaced the head that we got off of Ebay for around $250- I saw some pics and it was pretty tore up and the damage extended to other areas besides the VVT actuator, which BTW costs more than the entire head from Ebay. So, Matts stuck with a new actuator, as it simply did not make sense to replace it in the "new" head being that its not a high failure part. Since this is my first C14, I didn't realize until months after purchase that I might have been eligible to purchase an extended warranty. For the minimal buy-in, it seems a no-brainer. My Bad, I paid the bills as a result of the oversight. The heads are plentiful on Ebay, can't think of much of a reason to buy an actuator itself at a higher cost. Kawi dealer couldn't figure out the problem with his KDS, instead they "sent out" the injectors to be cleaned and flow-tested ($500) or whatever...all in all a pretty negative experience from an 09 with 12k miles on it, but surely the pain would've been much greater had Matt not done most of the wrenching pro bono.
   I really don't know what to make of it....bad luck? I was really only able to ride it for 3months before catastrophic failure, that would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. Total cost was over $1200 bones. She smokes a bit now, but I only have about 30 miles on her since the 6 month layup and now winter here in the NE... plus I was away in Montana for most of Jan/Feb... maybe the black puffs of smoke will go away as I log miles? I can only hope...
 :truce:

« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 08:04:39 pm by NYbiomed »
2002 Honda VTR1000F SuperHawk
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Offline Bigfoot_16

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2016, 09:02:00 pm »
Rick, I'm sorry for your troubles. Is your bike ineligible for an extended warranty now?
Jim

2015 Concours 14

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 10:53:21 pm »
Rick, I'm sorry for your troubles. Is your bike ineligible for an extended warranty now?

it's an 09, my guess is... expired a long time ago....

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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2016, 12:20:04 pm »
Rick, I'm sorry for your troubles. Is your bike ineligible for an extended warranty now?

Thanks, yeah, it's a bitter pill to swallow... I traveled some 5 hrs away to get a LOW mileage, reasonably priced C14- after being out of motorcycling for 5 years, only to ride it for 3 months before catastrophic failure and a healthy sum of money to get her fixed. I'm pretty sure I'll trade it in either next year or the year after, I'd be hesitant to sell it to someone I know as I'm leery of it's long term reliability. I'm hoping that with more riding and another oil change the black smoke (I estimate 3/10 scale) will fade. The original belief was a bad fuel pump (BTW, if anyone needs one, PM me) OR bad gas, so a sh!tload of additives were added and a bunch of gas washed away the oil's seal in the bore leading to low or minimal compression- all this probably diluted the oil? So I'm going to run it for another 50 miles or so and change the oil again using Rotella 15w/40 and a new filter. Of course there's always the variable of the head gotten off Ebay and its condition/mileage. Anyways, I still love the bike, maybe just not mine so much....

Best regards to all those who inquired and helped. :beerchug:
Rick

BTW: I just renewed my membership for another year in COG that was about to expire, worth every penny.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 12:44:04 pm by NYbiomed »
2002 Honda VTR1000F SuperHawk
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2016, 02:55:21 pm »
ny biomed - don't worry about the smoke and the low compression, unless Matt did a compression check after replacing the vvt and it was still low. the increased overlap that you got from the vvt failure is where the compression was going. Remember the backfires? that was your compression going up the intake. So now that's fixed, and the rings are pretty hearty so that's not likely to be an issue. The smoke comes from all the crud that's accumulated in the exhaust system from the failure and all the additives... I've seen it all before. ride the bike, get on it hard, and it will all clear up. there's no reason to be fearful, the bike is fixed. HTH, Steve
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Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2016, 12:59:54 pm »
^^Thanks for the reassurance Steve, i hope to contribute to the "Powered by SISF" movement, lol!
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2009 Kawasaki Concours 14 ABS
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2018, 05:17:06 pm »
I know this is an old thread, but It was a good one.  Well, not so good for the guys who had the issue, but "good " as in interesting.

I think Ivan gives a good explanation as to a  cause, in this thread. 

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/

More info available on his web site.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_vvt.htm

Ivans Ecu reflash, Brembo front rotors

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2018, 02:19:41 pm »
  In an environment where so many owners are trying to service their own bike, I think it's important for us to learns from events like this. Forensic diagnosis is tricky so often going to the source wil yield good information.  The mechanic who actually started this thread posted this :

 "Yes, I did the work on his bike. NO! the valves never contacted the pistons and NYBiomed has photos of the PRISTINE pistons of his engine from when the head was removed. "

  The diagnostic concerns I have in particular are:

  1) This happened 2500 miles after the valve adjustment. The fact is the FIRST time the cam would advance far enough to hit the piston the damage would occur. I have a hard time thinking a c-14 owner wouldn't get over 50% throttle in 2500 miles. Indeed, the first thing any competent mechanic would do during a test ride would be to ride the bike through the rpm range.

  2)  There would be an immediate power issue which would have resulted from the improperly timed camshaft, and it would have been immediately noticeable.

   3) in communicating with Matt, he stated that none of the valves were bent, and that the owner of the bike has pictures.

   4) I have an experiment that I'll do at the next valve adjustment.  It will consist of placing a piston at tdc, removing the exhaust cam so the valves are on the seats, and the with the intake cam properly timed, manually advance the intake cam and note if any valve / piston interference occurs, and and what point t would be in degrees (easily done with the vvt module and a degree wheel). This would answer, once and for all, the cam timing issue .

  Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline NYbiomed

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2018, 03:01:38 pm »
Well, I did have pics of gallng of the head and a sheared VVT, (can no longer locate pics from 2 phones ago) but I cannot recall pics of bent valves or of pristine pistons? IDK if that occured, I never saw the head separate from the bike, I only paid the bills....But the bike does run fine these days and I've no plans of running a scope through the spark plugs to confirm or deny. But I completely agree, that it's good for the community as a whole to identify/define cause as a learning moment. Poop happens. IMO opinion, if you can throw money at a problem and it goes away, it wasn't that big of a problem. I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things without hitting the This is Spinal Tap's infamous "11". I have "kissed" the RPM limiter on a couple occasions, but never at a WOT, hard SMACK.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2018, 09:06:50 pm »
  I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things... I have kissed the rpm limiter in a couple occasions...

   This statement, and 2500 miles worth of event - free riding would eliminate the possibility of an improperly installed / timed cam in my mind. 
  Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home