Author Topic: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!  (Read 8874 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mattchewn

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 5168
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2018, 10:39:37 pm »
I know this is an old thread, but It was a good one.  Well, not so good for the guys who had the issue, but "good " as in interesting.

I think Ivan gives a good explanation as to a  cause, in this thread. 

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/

More info available on his web site.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_vvt.htm

Unfortunately, for him and you,

You are both wrong. Another internet diagnosis that isn't!!!

Matt

FYI: EVERY SINGLE time I perform a valve adjustment on a bike it is taken for a SEVERAL mile test ride at higher and lower speeds, and run through the gears, NOT GENTLY, but not abusively. An out of time camshaft would have been IMMEDIATELY evident to anyone with my 25 plus years of mechanical experience.
2015 C14  Poison Ivy. I feel the itch!
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R  Wheelie sweet!!

Offline lather

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 748
    • West Florida Republic Riders Club
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10690
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2018, 11:51:47 pm »
Since my bike was the other example Ivan cites i'd like to throw in my 2 cents worth. I am still searching for diagnosis and Ivan's VVT post certainly caight my attention. But as far as I can tell all eight intake valves appear normal. Of course the heads still on the cyl and all I can see are the stems and keepers but all look fine whereas on the  ex side two valves have dropped their keepers loose and the shims scared; two other ex valve stems were poking up. Based on this if there was intake valve damage I think there would be some sign on the intake side. My damage occurred only 500 miles after valve adjustment but 300 of those miles were hard sport riding keeping up with a tweaked R1, seeing plenty of 9000 rpm accelerations. Admittedly no redline. And the bike was running great, felt smooth and strong.

I am not saying my failure was not due to my error, I still think that is likely but does not seem to be a mistimed chain.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7693
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2018, 06:42:10 pm »
My damage occurred only 500 miles after valve adjustment but 300 of those miles were hard sport riding keeping up with a tweaked R1, seeing plenty of 9000 rpm accelerations. Admittedly no redline. And the bike was running great, felt smooth and strong.


  Again, based on the owners assessment of his riding style prior to failure (certainly over 50% throttle), it would appear to me that an incorrectly installed intake cam was NOT the cause of this failure, at least as far as over advance from the vvt would be concerned.

  Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline cuda

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1235
  • Ignorance Is Bliss.
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 11405
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2018, 07:26:23 pm »
Some people know EVERYTHING !  >:(

 :41: :85:
We have invented the world WE see .
It takes 20 years  to build a reputation and 5 minutes to lose it...   - Cog 11405

Offline Ivan_ipp

  • Industry Member
  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 12710
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2018, 01:46:11 pm »
Well, I did have pics of gallng of the head and a sheared VVT, (can no longer locate pics from 2 phones ago) but I cannot recall pics of bent valves or of pristine pistons? IDK if that occured, I never saw the head separate from the bike, I only paid the bills....But the bike does run fine these days and I've no plans of running a scope through the spark plugs to confirm or deny. But I completely agree, that it's good for the community as a whole to identify/define cause as a learning moment. Poop happens. IMO opinion, if you can throw money at a problem and it goes away, it wasn't that big of a problem. I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things without hitting the This is Spinal Tap's infamous "11". I have "kissed" the RPM limiter on a couple occasions, but never at a WOT, hard SMACK.


The cam timing scenario was hypothetical, and put out there by me to elicit responses... just to get people talking about this particular case and it worked... This is because the information here for the cause of VVT actuator failure didn't make sense to me. So I did some research about VVT actuators with KMC and what I could find on the web... This revealed nothing as KMC has no record of authorizing or receiving a request for a VVT actuator under warranty/extended warranty ever since the bike's inception. There are no records on the web that I could find discussing it's failure either
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is my opinion on what most likely happened here....

The way that enough force could be put against the VVT actuator to cause it to get damaged and internally tear out of it's locating slot at the end of the cam would be if the cam seized in the head for any reason.

1) The resulting smeared aluminum from the seizure would block the oil supply to the cam journal, causing damage to the head and cam. How long this would take would depend on how far off the cam cap to camshaft clearance was.... sometimes things that are wrong, don't fail immediately

2 )The resistance to cam rotation caused by the seizure would then cause the oil to be squeezed out of the VVT actuator as it moves internally until it contacts the end of its travel.... then continues to twist and tear out and damage the locating slot where it mates to the camshaft..... All this being forced by the cam chain from the running engine.

The cause of this happening would most likely be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps (not possible on this bike due to the cam sensor), or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing, (fell out during assembly)

Something as simple as a cam cap bolt that was left loose or over-tightened...

(Any of the above will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)

A missing dowel pin from one of the caps will 100% for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems due to poor assembly by someone else.... some of them just had some galling, but did not completely seize and block the oil supply.

Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings could also cause a lack of oil to the journal.

Whatever caused the seizure is speculative at this point, but to me it's the only explanation that makes sense.

As a shop owner, and working on all types of motorcycles for 40 years, you get exposed to, and see/repair a lot of stuff...

A mistake in workmanship is the responsibility of the mistake maker... accountability for the mistake is always a subjective opinion.



Either way... the VVT actuator is not the cause... it's the result.... and it certainly didn't fail from a high rpm shift based on Rick's description of the conditions at the time of failure.


It's too bad that Rick never got his old parts back so he could have gotten a 2nd opinion from another shop..




Ivan
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 09:22:04 pm by Ivan_ipp, Reason: Removed erroneous statement »

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7693
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2018, 02:36:18 pm »



The cam timing scenario was hypothetical, and put out there by me to elicit responses... just to get people talking about this particular case and it worked...


Ivan

   This is simply not true.

  This was posted for a very simple reason. You have a page on your website about vvt control, and you're trying to use these threads about top end failure to support your claim that the failure has nothing to do with  vvt... so therefore folks shouldn't be afraid to high rpm their concours.  THIS thread is even currently linked on that page to support your position.

   OTOH, I have expressed grave concerns that the weight of the vvt module and the amount of energy it carries at redline could be a failure point when c-14's are redlined and upshifted one to many times. That whole "reciprocating mass" problem that happens at high rpm.

    Experimenting with our own bikes is one thing, experimenting with someone else's when they will have to bear the financial burden of a failure just isn't acceptable to me.

  Steve
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 12:11:25 am by Steve in Sunny Fla »
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline Deepsea

  • Living large in the land of Hansel & Gretel
  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1136
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2018, 02:44:49 pm »
Ivan,
 " or possibly a different shorter length bolt that doesn't bottom in the head and crushes/deforms the cam cap when tightened"
I've never known of a design that depended on a bolt (except specialty shoulder bolts) bottoming to set a clearance or of a dowel pin being used for anything other than alignment. Yes clearance can be effected if alignment is skewed but setting clearance is not the function of the pin.

  My background includes Gas Turbine Overhaul (Depot Level), Journeyman Machinist and all-around (sometimes) idiot :motonoises: Oh yeah, Land Speed Record Holder.
BSA Gold Star, Norton Commando, Moto Guzzi V-7 Sport, Norton Commando, John Player Norton, BMW R90S, Kawasaki Z-1 and Z-1R , Honda CB-650, C-14
El Mirage Record Holder A-BG 3000cc 11/83 184.049 mph  CDA#0438
(twin engine, twin turbo, Z-1)
Retired Navy Saturation Diver

Offline bobgroger

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 30
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: 12689
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2018, 04:04:20 am »
This whole scenario will certainly lessen the helpfulness towards other forum members problems. Help someone out, something happens, it's your fault.
09 C14 24k
'80 GS1100e Dragbike 8k
'83 GS1100e stock 42k
'80 GS850 my favorite bike 18k

Offline Deepsea

  • Living large in the land of Hansel & Gretel
  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1136
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2018, 05:04:54 am »
Not at all. The vast majority here are really good people who offer either firsthand experience or good sound advice. Some are highly experienced, especially with the C10 and C14. However whenever someone claims to be a “World Renowned” mechanic most everyone pays attention to what they say. That is until they say something that could cause another to damage their bike. At that point someone who knows better will jump in and attempt to correct the error. Sometimes we, especially me, can be overly blunt. If the conversation becomes acidic, political or contains personal attacks then the moderator will contact the offender or lock the thread with a notification explaining why they have done so.
Everyone has an opinion and sometimes they conflict but I have found this forum to be populated by genuinely good people. Opinions are just that. Don’t take them as personal attacks and unless you intentionally give bad advice it’s not your fault. We are all responsible for our own actions here. Including the advice we choose to follow and whatever work we perform.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 07:32:43 am by Deepsea »
BSA Gold Star, Norton Commando, Moto Guzzi V-7 Sport, Norton Commando, John Player Norton, BMW R90S, Kawasaki Z-1 and Z-1R , Honda CB-650, C-14
El Mirage Record Holder A-BG 3000cc 11/83 184.049 mph  CDA#0438
(twin engine, twin turbo, Z-1)
Retired Navy Saturation Diver