Author Topic: Help. Key will not turn.  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline Downhill

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Help. Key will not turn.
« on: July 30, 2017, 02:22:39 pm »
The stove pipe key is turning inside itself.  It is stuck in FSS.  When I push down and try to turn it to ON or OFF the inside part does not turn, only the outside part does and it clicks back into a position in the key.  Not sure what to do now as this has never happened before. I tried using the spare key, push down but the key mechanism will not turn in any direction.  What next?
Downhill Dave
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Offline gPink

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 02:43:30 pm »
Anything show on the dash when you push the key down and let it pop up?

Offline jwh20

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 06:02:03 pm »
There is a clutch mechanism inside the stove knob key that prevents someone from breaking the key off.  Keep turning it around until it catches again.
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Offline Downhill

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 08:26:55 pm »
Nothing shows on the dash. 
Downhill Dave
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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 08:33:39 pm »
Bike Battery dead  ???
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Offline WANDRNG

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 08:52:13 pm »
When you push down on the stove hat key, and your FOB is within range and working - the LCD becomes active,  lights up and shows a graphic telling you to turn the key counter or clockwise as needed.

If your LCD does not light up when you push down key with the FOB within range - they are not communicating and the key cannot be turned (same as if the FOB not present).

Battery on the FOB is dead
No FOB within range
Broken FOB

No power on the Concours - battery or connections
Fuse

Have you tried the spare small thin FOB - the one you hold against the ignition?

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Offline BDF

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 09:15:25 pm »
First, you are turning the key too hard and the ratchet has engaged. My suggestion would be to go a bit easier on the key. Now that it is turning though, you may need to address that once the bike is running again.

Secondly, if the LCD does not light up, the ignition switch will not turn. Putting force (torque) on the key if the ignition switch is still locked (dark LCD), will not turn the switch. Trying to twist it harder will result in the ratchet mechanism engaging, which you already have as that is what the 'key turning without turning the ignition switch' is- the ignition switch is locked and will not turn but the key can be forced to turn. The ratchet is a safety mechanism so the key is not twisted off in the ignition.

You must find out why the system is not powering up. It may be a dead fob battery, it may be a loose battery connection on the bike, it may be the fob is out of range or shielded from being read by the ECU, or you may have the dreaded KiPass 'stuck activation switch' issue.

My suggestion would be to try the fob in the 'dead battery mode, which is shown in the owner's manual. The manual is available on- line if you did not get one with the bike.

Check that first and see if that does not cure the problem.

Brian

The stove pipe key is turning inside itself.  It is stuck in FSS.  When I push down and try to turn it to ON or OFF the inside part does not turn, only the outside part does and it clicks back into a position in the key.  Not sure what to do now as this has never happened before. I tried using the spare key, push down but the key mechanism will not turn in any direction.  What next?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Downhill

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 10:01:07 pm »
The bike battery is fully charged and connections are tight.  I put in a new fob battery and still does nothing.  I tried the credit card fob and nothing happens.  I'm thinking fuse but not sure which one I should look for.  Just rode yesterday with no issue.
Downhill Dave
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Offline JTX

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 12:19:53 am »
The bike battery is fully charged and connections are tight.  I put in a new fob battery and still does nothing.  I tried the credit card fob and nothing happens.  I'm thinking fuse but not sure which one I should look for.  Just rode yesterday with no issue.


There are fuses under the seat.  Check them.

Offline JerBear

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 12:26:53 am »
If you are sure the bike's battery is good and have tried the bypass method with your fob (Remove the key place the for on the top post of the stove top switch and push down the Stove key) and nothing happens the internal KIPASS switch is likely stuck.  Look up the methods for allowing it to be bypassed (see K-Rock or disconnecting then re-connecting the wire grouping under the LH side of the fairing) it is a problem that some owners have dealt with.  The return spring in the mechanism has too little umph to push it back into the position it needs to be in for the KIPASS to get the signal. 

Personally, I say go with the K-Rock until you can get BDF's 50 dollar connector/fuse switch off his website:   http://www.incontrolne.com/
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Offline C. Moore

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 09:40:49 am »
My money is on the battery. How old is it?
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Offline BDF

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 11:25:16 am »
OK, if you tried the credit card fob and it did not work, along with the other info., this is starting to look like the dreaded 'stuck KiPass' issue. Look it up on this forum, any other Concours forum and Google and you will find a huge amount of discussion about it. And a little information mixed in but little is the keyword :-)

There is a small, normally open, switch under the ignition switch that the ignition a**'y presses down to 'wake up' the bike, and this is what starts the process of the bike polling for (Easy Boys!) the fob. That switch sometimes sticks down and 'ON', and the ECU is programmed to deal with this by cutting power to the bike until that circuit is opened and closed again. There is the problem: you cannot open the system because the switch is stuck 'ON'. So you have several choices:

1) Shock the switch so that the spring under it pops it back up. This is the infamous smash the ign. housing with a rock, affectionately called a K-rock. This may work but is hard on the igntion and lacks a certain elegance.  ::)
2) Try to help the switch snap into position by pressing down on the ign. key and then 'side- steeping' you finger or thumb as sharply as possible. The idea is to get the main ignition spring to snap the ign. column up as fast as possible, to both help shock the small switch spring in the activation switch, and to make the ign. a**'y snap up as quickly as possible.
3) open the fairing cover on the top / left side of the bike, find the black rubber boot with parts of the bike's harness inside it, find the 8 pin connector in that boot, and disconnect it. Then reconnect it with a fob available that the bike can sense, and you will have 5 seconds to turn the key and start the bike.
4) I sell an activation by-pass a**'y for this problem. It is $50, and plugs into the bike (no cutting or modification to the bike at all, and it can be removed at any time, leaving the bike bone stock) and provides a switch (actually an in-line fuse) that you use to get around this problem w/out any tools or the removal of anything such as fairings, covers, etc. I came up with this back in the early days of the C-14 to give me a way around this problem in the event it bit me in the butt and have made it available to others.

Note that none of these things actually fixes the problem, they merely remove the symptom so you can get the bike running again. To actually fix the problem, the ign. a**'y has to be dissesembled, which is a bit tedious and requires the removal of some security screws with a drill, and then a new activation switch installed, a new, stiffer spring installed, and / or the switch cleaned, de- burred and lubed (with a DRY lube!). Kawasaki has been pretty good about doing this on bikes under warranty as well as outside warranty because they know they proverbially 'steeped in it' with this switch. They actually have a new, stiffer (Boys!) spring for the activation switch that helps but does not eliminate this problem, and they distribute these springs to dealers in sort of a stealth program to address this problem. The spring has no part number and is not really a 'part' but it is done.

Best of luck with this situation, assuming that is your problem. One of the difficulties of dealing with this problem is finding out if it is the problem or not. The only way to know if this is your problem is to break that circuit via the 8 pin connector or my harness, and then re-connect it: if the LCD illuminates, congratulations- you have the dreaded "Stuck KiPass" situation.

Brian

The bike battery is fully charged and connections are tight.  I put in a new fob battery and still does nothing.  I tried the credit card fob and nothing happens.  I'm thinking fuse but not sure which one I should look for.  Just rode yesterday with no issue.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Downhill

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 03:49:08 pm »
Ok...here's where I'm at.  The bike battery is fully charged.  The small switch under the key is not stuck.  The Fob battery is new.  I unplugged the grey electrical plug on the left side and plugged it back in to reset the KiPass.  Nothing.  It appears not to have any electric coming to the unit.  Not sure where to look for the correct fuse?  Next step is off to the dealer.
Downhill Dave
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Offline gPink

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 05:31:15 pm »
Have you checked the main 30 amp fuse behind the battery box?

Offline BDF

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 06:14:56 pm »
What Gary said, check the main fuse if you do not have 12 volts at any place in any of the three fuse boxes under the saddle.

That said, the main fuse should never open unless something really amazing happened to the bike or you did something pretty substantial regarding the bike's circuitry.

That is how I opened mine- I seriously overloaded the system with electrical draw on the far side of the main fuse (the battery side). So the main fuse basically took all the alternator could put out, and that is considerably more than 30 amps. But that should not happen unless several significant, power- hungry, devices or accessories are wired to the bike.

Brian

Ok...here's where I'm at.  The bike battery is fully charged.  The small switch under the key is not stuck.  The Fob battery is new.  I unplugged the grey electrical plug on the left side and plugged it back in to reset the KiPass.  Nothing.  It appears not to have any electric coming to the unit.  Not sure where to look for the correct fuse?  Next step is off to the dealer.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Downhill

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 11:18:22 pm »
Thanks guys.  I will check all the fuses next.  I will keep you posted.
Downhill Dave
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Offline Tree

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 11:57:15 am »
This is déjà Vu all over again!  Don't do what I did!  Right Brian?

Good luck!
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Offline BDF

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2017, 05:41:13 pm »
Yep, that happens a lot between the two forums, and sometimes the same person starts the same thread in both places at once. All fine and well but I am careful to only answer on one forum, for those that I can add anything to and post in at all. Otherwise, one person gets involved with two versions of the same conversation. It all gets confusing once someone responds to something said in the thread on the other forum.

As to what you did.... well, not quite sure what that does so it beats me, maybe everyone should be doing it <shrugs shoulders>.  :-)

Brian

This is déjà Vu all over again!  Don't do what I did!  Right Brian?

Good luck!
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 06:06:01 pm »
Has this problem been rectumfried yet?

Or still an open issue?
 :??: ;)

Was looking at circuit for a different question...

Was the kipass diode thingy tested?
Just asking... :??:
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:30:45 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline smithr1

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 07:32:33 pm »
When I hear, I checked the battery and it is fully charged, that means nothing to me.  How do you know it is fully charged and fine? 

Voltage with no load means almost nothing.  But what was it?  If not over 12.6 at least unloaded it is the battery  If the bike will not come on it is hard to load test the battery.   What is the voltage when the bike should be on?  Not at the terminals but at the bike electronics.  If you have a bad connection measuring the terminals means nothing,  If you removed it and took it to some place and they said under load it is producing 90 % of its spec CCA than maybe I believe that.   
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 01:09:05 am »
 :1rij: :s_laugh: :smiley_confused: :hum:


so, what about my responses, leaves a question////?
 :??: :??: :??:

still asking about the diode array, in the keypass cicruit....

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Offline Downhill

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 11:55:55 pm »
I will feel pretty stupid telling this but here we go.  Dead Battery.   >:(

I relied on my battery tender to let me know if it was fully charged instead of getting the tester.  I know, I know.  Dumb a**.  Took the dealer like five minutes to figure it out.  Problem was they did not have any new batteries until tomorrow.  I offered to pick one up at another dealer not too far away and bring it to them and they agreed no problem.  The dealer that said they had a new battery is unreliable and I don't let them work on the bike, but I figured what could it hurt to buy a battery from them.  Big mistake.  Drove an hour over to the dealer with the battery and the young girl behind the counter, nose and tounge ring complete, tells me she is trying to charge the battery before she sells it to me.  I tell her how far I drove and that I had to get back and did't have time to wait.  She brings out a USED battery that she tried to hide in a box that wasn't for the battery to begin with.  I open the box and the battery terminals are corroded, the bottom of the battery is all scratched up.  When I called her on it, she tells me that I can just take it no charge. :-\

She doesn't actually admit anything, but her silence was proof to me she was trying to pull a fast one.
Lesson learn.  Never go back to this dealer for anything!!!

Downhill Dave
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2008 Spyder (yellow/black) premier #2723

Offline TimR

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2017, 12:22:45 am »
Glad you got her figured out. I recently had to replace a 7 year old battery my self.
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Offline C. Moore

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Re: Help. Key will not turn.
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2017, 09:51:08 am »
 :great: my '10 had a two year old battery that went bad. New, old or in between they can go south with no warning.
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