Author Topic: Idling woes after valve adjustment  (Read 1073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Killface

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 22
  • Beer is proof God loves us.
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Idling woes after valve adjustment
« on: April 13, 2018, 07:37:22 pm »
Hi, I've searched for this topic and found that it mostly leads to throttle body sync but, I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. I recently completed the valve adjustment on my '12 concours. Upon starting it for the first time, it would not stay running at idle. I turned the idle up and it idled fairly smoothly until the engine warmed up and then the idle shot up to 3,500 rpm. I tried a throttle cable adjustment and then re-set the idle. The bike does not want to idle between 1,000 and 2,000 rpm. It either is too low or too high. I pulled the upper middle fairing and checked the throttle cable routing. It was fine. I took it for a ride and I had to rev it up to keep it from dying at stop lights. It feels like I threw an anchor out trying to accelerate through the gears but the engine felt smooth once I hit cruising speed. Today I'm going to lube the throttle cables and see if that helps. There are no warning lights on. Any advice would be great!

Offline sfsokc

  • Training Wheels
  • *
  • Posts: 80
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10667
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 08:00:12 pm »
I had a really weird idle issue too after my first valve job, with similar symptoms where I'd have to turn it up to prevent dying when the engine was cold.  Then later, it would be set too high after warming up.  So basically low/high issues where I could never find that "sweet spot".  Turns out (and you're not gonna want to hear this), the timing was literally off by just one tooth!  Had to pull everything apart and fix it (well, I didn't, but the guy working on it did).  :)  HOPE it's not that!

Offline RoadKillHeaven

  • How hard can it be? 。◕‿◕。
  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 545
  • AREA: Northwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 12:30:10 am »
it seems timing is off.

Offline lather

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 748
    • West Florida Republic Riders Club
  • AREA: South Central Area
  • COG#: 10690
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 11:45:45 am »
Steven, how did you determine the timing was off one tooth?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8240
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2018, 05:08:24 pm »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Killface

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 22
  • Beer is proof God loves us.
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2018, 07:14:55 pm »
So, yesterday I lubed the throttle cables and throttle tube. The throttle had not been snapping back quickly as it should so I wanted to rule that out as the issue. I adjusted the cables and idle and took it for a ride. It did idle better but stalled once at a light. It also seemed to tap back into the power that it had lacked. My question is, is there a way to verify that my timing is off before taking it all apart again? Thanks, Kris

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8240
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 08:34:10 pm »
So, yesterday I lubed the throttle cables and throttle tube. The throttle had not been snapping back quickly as it should so I wanted to rule that out as the issue. I adjusted the cables and idle and took it for a ride. It did idle better but stalled once at a light. It also seemed to tap back into the power that it had lacked. My question is, is there a way to verify that my timing is off before taking it all apart again? Thanks, Kris
I can't say offhand there is any way to tell, without pulling sparkplugs, and timing iductor rotor cover, setting it to 1-4 TDC mark on the wheel, and sticking a screwdriver or dowel down in cylinder 4, followed by rotating the rotor back or forth to see if that piston was at the top, or before the top, or after the top position...even then, the piston movement would be highly difficult to see as one tooth off is a small distance in piston height...very small. But enough to make it run poorly, and result in failure if not corrected.
I know you don't want to hear that, so if anyone else has a better way please advise...

..
Best of luck,
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:11:43 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Deepsea

  • Living large in the land of Hansel & Gretel
  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1136
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 04:05:57 am »
The only way I know of is if you have access to a HiDef Borescope with camera and a comparator. I'm talking about laboratory grade equipment. You'd need to pull the plugs insert the scope then video the valves while coming to and passing TDC. Then use the comparator (100 x magnification)to check valve position as the piston approached TDC.
  Probably be easier to just pull the valve cover. Yeah it sux but damaging the engine is worse. Something I always do before removing the cams is clean the cam chain using a Qtip with alcohol then paint the two links at the timing marks with whiteout or white fingernail polish. It's a quick visual check when putting the cams back in. That only works as long as the chain isn't allowed to drop off the crank sprocket.


Best of luck.
BSA Gold Star, Norton Commando, Moto Guzzi V-7 Sport, Norton Commando, John Player Norton, BMW R90S, Kawasaki Z-1 and Z-1R , Honda CB-650, C-14
El Mirage Record Holder A-BG 3000cc 11/83 184.049 mph  CDA#0438
(twin engine, twin turbo, Z-1)
Retired Navy Saturation Diver

Offline 4Bikes

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3086
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9715
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 10:47:48 am »
I agree that if you are in there far enough to remove the plugs, pull the valve cover and carefully review the service manual steps for setting the timing marks on the cams.  If you count the timing chain pins per the service manual diagram, it will show you if the timing is correct.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Killface

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 22
  • Beer is proof God loves us.
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 06:02:33 pm »
Thanks, everyone! I will use your advice. Yes, it sucks but, at least it will give me more practice with tear down and reassembly. I spent a good hour looking at the cam chain and cam sprockets. Guess I'll have to study harder.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8240
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 06:21:04 pm »
I'm not sure doing the borescope thing rill reveal much other than piston position, as the cams themselves have a "dwell zone" that encompases a somewhat wide span before TDC and after TDC (where they are not in contact or causing a valve to move) evident by using that "zone" as where you check the shim clearances.

My explanation in post #6 of measuring where the piston height is at TDC does hold tru tho, in relation to the timing mark on the inductor plate..
But, that again is kinda tough to judge visually,

As both people noted, the only sure way, is to remove the valve cover, and correlate that both cam gears timing marks allign with the top of the machined surface, and also that this occurs when the inductors timing mark is alligned with the case split line indicator.
And the correct amount of links between the cam gears, as been depicted in the FSM is met. It can be a bit fidgity, but that is why the links are marked during the looping of the chain at that time (I don't mark the chain prior, as its position is only important at that step).
I do remove the cam cover gasket prior also, both to clean and prep for reinstall, and to give a clear view when alligning the cam gears marks with that machined surface,
But I always rotate the engine thru at least 2 revolutions manually after attaching the chain, with the camcaps drawn down, and verifying the timing marks on the inductor plate and cam gears repeatedly return to their correct positions, then I torque the caps in sequence, and begin to "finish" assembling.

I tried to post a link to photos of this from an old posting I made to a "help me" thread back in 2015, but it kept redirecting the posting to some other thread... I'll try to dig the pictures up and post them later on today.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Killface

  • Tricycle
  • Posts: 22
  • Beer is proof God loves us.
  • AREA: Southwest Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 05:26:27 pm »
Ok, yeah, I'm just gonna pull the valve cover again and get it done. I thought I had the chain and sprockets aligned correctly. I counted the links, lined up the marker dots with the case and rotated it all several times.  So I'm not sure what happened there. When I get it apart, I'll post on what I find. Thanks a ton for all the useful info. I don't know if I would have figured this one out on my own. I thought if they were off a sprocket that it just wouldn't run but, just like a car, they run but not happily. I'm learning and that's a good thing!

Offline 4Bikes

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3086
  • AREA: Northeast Area
  • COG#: 9715
  • Membership Level: Asst. Area Director
Re: Idling woes after valve adjustment
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 05:45:54 pm »
Good attitude.  :great:  Just think how much faster it will go to get to the valve cover since it's so fresh on your mind.

Hope this helps.  I made this embellished version of the service manual procedure for counting the links.  IIRC, the intake cam marks on the Gen 2 were much easier to visualize when they were in the right position. The exhaust CAM was a little harder to discern.   Using this diagram, count the timing chain links from the intake CAM , and you should be good to go.

Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......