Author Topic: Immobilizer error  (Read 407 times)

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Offline lather

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Immobilizer error
« on: October 25, 2018, 06:55:06 pm »
I just ordered a new battery. On a trip last week I got the immobilzer error twice. Both times it was the first start of the morning in cool temos about 45F. The starter struggled but the engine eventualy fired but the error appeared these were the first cool starts of the season and away from home so not battery tender. Since getting home I charged the batt and the voltage with the charger disconnected was 13.8 But after letting it sit disconnected overnight it was down to 12.4.

The owners manual says in case of immobilizer error to have the system checked but it is obvious to me that it is a merely a glitch caused by a weak battery.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 07:14:42 pm »
load test that battery...
time for a new one....

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Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 07:37:52 pm »
load test that battery...
time for a new one....
Would connecting my heated jacket to it on high for 30 seconds be a good load test?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 07:46:56 pm »
no...
Load testing is "measuring with a meter" the ampacity of a fully charged (12V+) battery, that has a significant current draw on it...  It's not quite as simple as "adding a load" for a short period, then measuring voltage...

Car parts store has Load tester, and they don't charge to test a battery...
looks like this


some models have a variable load, that can be dialed thru also, and tells the state of the battery to recover.

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Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 08:15:57 pm »
I have already ordered a battery (the one you linked recently). Dropping from 13.8 to 12.4 overnight is all I need to know.
 The weather will be getting colder and I will be running heated gloves and jacket. I may test the old abttery anyway and keep it if its still good.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 08:54:22 pm »
batteries can be fickle sometimes... I really stress on scrubbed connections every time I mention them..
I bought a new one this year for the C14, again, as I didn't pull it out during the winter, nor did I attach my Tender to it... it had like 3V this spring, and even charging, and cycling it, on a manual charger (no auto shutoff, so I had to keep an eye on it during the cycling), I still didn't trust it... it would bump up to 12.8v-13.2v, and then drop down overnight to 12.7v...
then, when I did a "bleedoff" using a headlight 'high beam" bulb for 1 minute ( I do this to get a reference point, as a 60watt load like that, puts a 5 amp drain), it would drop to 12v...
so, I replaced it and installed a new one, which I activated, and charged prior to install...
surprisingly it only went up to 13.0v also, and bled down to 12.8v... but it's new, and it works... strangely, the old batt which I cycled a dozen or so times, and actually bounced around on the bench between charge cycles, restored itself, and continues to hold 12.7v, and when "load tested" was remarkably still good... go figure... I spent $$ on a new one, and should have trusted the old one, but now I have a spare, and it's inside on the tender, warm, and waiting.... and this winter, like in a week or so, I'll pull the new one out, and "parallel charge" both on the tender all winter..

the immobilizer error thing does make me ask, have you ever taken the FOB battery out, and started the bike using the passive chip only? If you have replaced a FOB, and this is what you have, and it was 'programmed', they may not have programmed the 'passive chip', and BOTH need to be done with a new FOB, as it's a 2 step operation for programming.... just curious.

report back, sounds like you have it all in hand tho.

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Offline IBAJIM

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 10:34:28 pm »
The load tester shown above is for CAR battery testing.

If used to test any brand new MOTORCYCLE battery , the battery will fail because it loads a motorcycle battery way too much.  A good MC battery will register in the weak area, but will hold steady down there.   But don't use it.  Motorcycle batteries aren't designed to handle that kind of load for more than a few seconds.

And BTW, the 13.8 volt reading taken immediately after the battery was taken off the charger doesn't mean much since the battery had a "surface charge" at that point.  Putting a light load on the battery for a few seconds and then measuring the voltage would have been more meaningful.   A fully charged battery should read about 12.4-12.8 volts.

Also, voltage measurements don't mean much unless you know your meter is accurate.   You can always compare it to another meter.  If they both agree within 0.1 volts when measuring a battery, then they both are probably fairly accurate.   If you have available a known voltage, that would be a better test.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 10:38:56 pm by IBAJIM »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 12:06:06 am »
The load tester shown above is for CAR battery testing.

If used to test any brand new MOTORCYCLE battery , the battery will fail because it loads a motorcycle battery way too much.  A good MC battery will register in the weak area, but will hold steady down there.   But don't use it.  Motorcycle batteries aren't designed to handle that kind of load for more than a few seconds.

And BTW, the 13.8 volt reading taken immediately after the battery was taken off the charger doesn't mean much since the battery had a "surface charge" at that point.  Putting a light load on the battery for a few seconds and then measuring the voltage would have been more meaningful.   A fully charged battery should read about 12.4-12.8 volts.

Also, voltage measurements don't mean much unless you know your meter is accurate.   You can always compare it to another meter.  If they both agree within 0.1 volts when measuring a battery, then they both are probably fairly accurate.   If you have available a known voltage, that would be a better test.

Thanks for the input,
I think in my posts, I did touch on bleeding off residual charge, and also the fact that some load testors have a variable load selection, to tailor them to a m/c battery.. the picture was just a generic picture... but that will do what it is intended for, which is to "within a few seconds" tell you if there as an internal short, or broken tie bar between cells... absolutely reliable for that purpose within seconds. An inductive or resistive load isn't like a dead short, and it will not "harm" anything.. voltage means nothing in effect either if not done in conjunction with a load, both prior and after and a comparison made, as a cracked tie bar, when loaded, and the load removed, will return into place, and again conduct "volts at zero or fractional amps" that can be read by a voltmeter.. understanding the "after test" voltage and specific gravity of the electrolyte (hard to do on a sealed battery) combined with the instructional charts per the test meter, gives the results.

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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2018, 12:28:56 pm »
Good discussion here.  Albeit slightly "theorhetical" given that I still have not seen a single battery test/tester that provides incontrovertible proof that a battery (motorcycle OR Car) is either good or bad.

I used to work at a car dealership, and we had a very expensive battery tester on wheels, that would do a full load test and recharge/recycle with a data printout of the charging capacity of the battery and charging system.
It REGULARLY failed good batteries, for one reason or another.

My rule became: if a weak battery failed two times (non-start) upon the third time, that car would get a new battery.  :o
Not scientific, but I wasn't in the habit of paying to replace batteries that still had life in them.

Now - that scenario is WAY different for us bikers, who might get caught out in the middle of nowhere with no means of getting our bike running on a (semi) dead battery, but you get where I'm coming from:  a load testing is not infallible, no matter HOW GOOD the testing machine is.  Many many variables can effect the test, and the charging system - not to mention bad cells, low electrolytic fluid, etc etc.

I've been meaning to buy a LiIon Jump pack for the bike, and car - and keep second guessing myself.
Truly, charging cables (like I carry) won't help if there isn't another battery near-by to grab a jump from.  And so often, I'm in the middle of nowhere all by myself.

Having one of these, is good insurance, and smart for the wayward traveler:



https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/antigravity-micro-start-xp-1-power-supply?rrec=true
..."I like to keep this handy -- for Close Encounters"...

Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2018, 01:21:12 pm »
Thanks for your comments about batteries. :(

I am curious what you braniacs think about the immobilizer error message. I speculate that when the prolonged cranking with a weak battery draws down the voltage to a certain point the connection between the KIPASS ECU and fob is broken.  Seems to me the error is misleading, it should say "REPLACE BATTERY"

I do like the Jump Starter idea, look like great product.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 01:31:29 pm by lather »

Offline Ronnie

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2018, 02:44:14 pm »
I have a Lithium jump pack and it is awesome.  It goes with me everywhere I go.  I think I payed $50 for it off of Amazon.  I haven't had to use it on the bike yet, but I've jumped off numerous stranded motorists with it.  It's a great peace of mind. :great:
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Offline Staylo

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2018, 02:54:02 pm »
What I’m wondering is, because I haven’t yet had to mess with the battery since I got the bike, with the battery being tucked inside the frame like it is, are we able to get jumper cables on that battery? I was wondering if we could jump through the battery tender plug, but don’t know that the cord could take the amperage. From looking at the photos of the ‘jumper’ cables that come with these mini battery packs, the wire gauges on those doesn’t look too heavy either.
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Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2018, 04:09:34 pm »
What I’m wondering is, because I haven’t yet had to mess with the battery since I got the bike, with the battery being tucked inside the frame like it is, are we able to get jumper cables on that battery? I was wondering if we could jump through the battery tender plug, but don’t know that the cord could take the amperage. From looking at the photos of the ‘jumper’ cables that come with these mini battery packs, the wire gauges on those doesn’t look too heavy either.
That's what I am thinking too. I think we would have to  remove the plastic cover and the aluminum plate which would be a pia. Or cut the corner of the plack plastic battery cover. 

There are many dozens on Amazon but all seem to have the car size cable connections with what looks like 10 or 12 gauge wire. I looked for one with an SAE connector/adapter that will work with the battery tender pigtail but not seeing that. May have to make our own adapter.

Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2018, 05:34:00 pm »
Read the Q&A on REvzilla. One guy said trying to jump with the battery tender harness blew the fuse. Another said  Zero -G  sells there own jump start harness that plugs into the device.  I am thinking just use the tender harness and temporarily swap in a 30 amp fuse.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2018, 08:52:23 pm »
Read the Q&A on REvzilla. One guy said trying to jump with the battery tender harness blew the fuse. Another said  Zero -G  sells there own jump start harness that plugs into the device.  I am thinking just use the tender harness and temporarily swap in a 30 amp fuse.

please don't try jumping thru a Tender connection, or other wire connector, the ampacity of the wires, and connectors is totally insufficient to allow safety, and damaged components, and wire will result.
The current draw on a starter cold start from battery is pretty high, just guessing but I'd figure maybe 70 Amps; I never measured it, but it's higher than a single #10AWG wire can safely provide, and anything less than that... out of the question...which is what you find on tenders, and other devices, commonly #14 AWG..which can carry 20 Amps... and the tenders and chargers only charge at around 2 Amps, so its a 10x safety factor for the charger use... look closely at the cable sizes installed on the bike, and they are basically very short runs... they are large in comparison for a reason...
I would never use anything less than a 4 AWG cable/wire, for jumping purposes...
I would however use a home made "jumper" that was made up from 3 runs of #10 AWG, per cable, by soldering the ends together and crimping and soldering on a 'clamp/pincher" to each end like the ones that come on the battery tender cables, and most other charger cables.. This should carry safely 105 Amps...(3x 35 amps).They are small enough to fit into the "hole" in the aluminum cover plate for connecting to the + Positive battery post, and clamp onto the grounding cable point and cable end where it attaches to the frame. It makes for a very "compact" but reliable jumper cable, easily rolled up and stored on board.

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Offline lather

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2018, 09:20:50 pm »
MOB what you are saying makes perfect sense and sounds right to me but look at what Anti_gravity is selling as a jumper cable:


I suspect there is a fuse holder inside that black pastic wrap. Could it be some fancy electronic doodad? May have to fork over the $18 to find out.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2018, 09:37:29 pm »
MOB what you are saying makes perfect sense and sounds right to me but look at what Anti_gravity is selling as a jumper cable:


I suspect there is a fuse holder inside that black pastic wrap. Could it be some fancy electronic doodad? May have to fork over the $18 to find out.

I dunno... picture didn't show up in post...  oops, it does now... :truce:
I think this is what you are asking


whatever they claim,  :truce: :truce: ::)
I know about wire capacities, been in the Power quality industry for 20 years, and all I can say is look at the cables on the bike, at the battery, and at the starter... :great: :great: :great:

that shrink tube thing is a thermal protection circuit, I presume, from their literature... and these appear to be #10 AWG, which in a pinch, may jump ya, and it's dealing with a Lithuim Ion battery connection and high inrush delivery, but can't take "long term/multiple crankings"...

they even quote
"
SAFETY NOTES:
The MICRO-START is for Jump-Starting ONLY through the Jump-Start port!
Never leave the Micro-Start connected to your vehicle’s battery for longer than 30 seconds, or use in place of your regular battery in your vehicle.
Use only the provided chargers in the Micro-Start’s kit to charge the Micro-Start."
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 09:51:32 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Staylo

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Re: Immobilizer error
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2018, 11:45:30 pm »
Antiravity does sell a permanent mount pigtail, similar to the battery tender lead, that plugs directly into the power pack, but that means leaving a permanent pigtail on your bike for the odd chance you may need to jumpstart it. Doesn’t seem like a practical solution for our situation. If the battery was tucked underneath the seat or something like many other bikes that would be much more practical, but for us we would have to leave it hanging outside the bike to really make it useful. Otherwise, if I have to remove the cover I might as well use the alligator clips. I looked up a YouTube video of jumpstarting the bike, and it does look like it is designed for the positive terminal to be accessible while the battery is inside the bike, and then you can ground to the frame, so it’s not as bad as I was picturing.
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