Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: gilbysan on December 05, 2017, 01:22:50 am

Title: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gilbysan on December 05, 2017, 01:22:50 am
Dudes,

IYO, how important is it to use the Kaw spec's for tightening these all important components. I have always just applied my version of "reasonable manually calibrated torque" but I love my Connie and want us to be together for a long time...ergo, this query.

Further, I think I have seen them but can't for the life of me remember where exactly that was...

Feedback is appreciated.

Gilbysan
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Bud on December 05, 2017, 01:46:00 am
I think it's important that the drain bolt and filter are tightened enough to do the job.  There are two schools of thought.  Use a torque wrench or gutentight.  I personally think I've done enough oil changes in my life that I can tell when it is tight enough.  Others will say that you should use a torque wrench on just about everything.  Either way you go, it still requires having an idea of what is tight enough.  A torque wrench in the hands of a rookie can be dangerous as heck.  I have read here and other places of people that can't feel tight enough and maybe have the wrong torque value, or don't know how to use the torque wrench, that strip threads and then have to solve that problem.  If one is concerned that they didn't tighten the drain bolt or filter enough, can always go back later and check to make sure it's still tight.  It's not that hard or time consuming to do.  This is just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. :)
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gilbysan on December 05, 2017, 02:12:45 am
Bud,

Thanks Mucho for your PoV.  Like you I assume, having done this for about 50 years I cant disagree with anything you say and am comfortable with my technique.  To date it has worked for me just fine.  I have noted that there are many excellent Technicians on this board who have lost sleep over this very question, and will answer up when they see the thread.

Cheers!

BG
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gsun on December 05, 2017, 02:14:24 am
You have to get a wrench to tighten anyway. Make it a torque wrench. Not important for an experienced guy but for a newbie, could be important. Over tightening is the bad part. Never get it off. Most people will not under tighten.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: mnbikeguy on December 05, 2017, 02:24:16 am
The torque value you're look for is 22 ft/lb. While you won't burn in hell by choosing to tighten by hand, I think the regular use of a torque wrench gives a level of precision that is comforting. Even for something as mundane as an oil change.
On a related note, make sure that the crush washer and the mating surface are clean. A little grit on either often leads to an ever so annoying oil weep.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Bud on December 05, 2017, 02:25:44 am
You have to get a wrench to tighten anyway. Make it a torque wrench. Not important for an experienced guy but for a newbie, could be important. Over tightening is the bad part. Never get it off. Most people will not under tighten.
What happens if the newbie doesn't know how to properly set the torque wrench and they don't stop pulling on it until it clicks?  Did you read the thread about a guy that used a torque wrench on his axle pinch bolt?  That thread got kinda lively over exactly how to deal with him stripping the threads.  It's kinda like using a calculator.  If you have no idea whatsoever of the correct answer, you'll believe whatever shows up on the screen, even if you made a mistake inputting the variables.  Just sayin.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: jwh20 on December 05, 2017, 02:41:46 am
You really can't go wrong using a torque wrench and torquing the bolt to the manufacturer's specification in almost all cases.  While there are some exceptions, I am not aware of any on the C14.  My only advice is to keep in mind that the 22 ft-lb torque is assuming a NEW crush washer.  If you re-use the washer, you will want to under-torque by a few ft-lbs.  The "crush"-ability of the washer is not the same after it's been crushed once.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gilbysan on December 05, 2017, 03:02:41 am
So thanks gentlemen for the replies to date.  Can't help but notice that all 3 of you are North Central people.  Is there nothing else of value to do at night there but be here?  I say with no small amount of irony...

Cheers!

BG
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gsun on December 05, 2017, 04:12:17 am
You have to get a wrench to tighten anyway. Make it a torque wrench. Not important for an experienced guy but for a newbie, could be important. Over tightening is the bad part. Never get it off. Most people will not under tighten.
What happens if the newbie doesn't know how to properly set the torque wrench and they don't stop pulling on it until it clicks?  Did you read the thread about a guy that used a torque wrench on his axle pinch bolt?  That thread got kinda lively over exactly how to deal with him stripping the threads.  It's kinda like using a calculator.  If you have no idea whatsoever of the correct answer, you'll believe whatever shows up on the screen, even if you made a mistake inputting the variables.  Just sayin.

Absolutely correct. Matter of fact, my torque wrench has jammed a couple of times. Maybe not returning it to zero, maybe getting stuck between values, maybe because I'm cheap er, frugal, I didn't spend a lot on it. But because I use it a lot, I know when it's not right.
Did that guy strip the threads or the head? Cause after stripping the first head, I am sure to bury the allen wrench into the socket.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Bud on December 05, 2017, 04:14:49 am
I've been watching various music vids on youtube and go back and forth from COG to youtube.  If it were daytime, I might be working on the Silverwing 650 project or riding the new addition the the garage.....the C14!
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Bud on December 05, 2017, 04:50:27 am
You have to get a wrench to tighten anyway. Make it a torque wrench. Not important for an experienced guy but for a newbie, could be important. Over tightening is the bad part. Never get it off. Most people will not under tighten.
What happens if the newbie doesn't know how to properly set the torque wrench and they don't stop pulling on it until it clicks?  Did you read the thread about a guy that used a torque wrench on his axle pinch bolt?  That thread got kinda lively over exactly how to deal with him stripping the threads.  It's kinda like using a calculator.  If you have no idea whatsoever of the correct answer, you'll believe whatever shows up on the screen, even if you made a mistake inputting the variables.  Just sayin.

Absolutely correct. Matter of fact, my torque wrench has jammed a couple of times. Maybe not returning it to zero, maybe getting stuck between values, maybe because I'm cheap er, frugal, I didn't spend a lot on it. But because I use it a lot, I know when it's not right.
Did that guy strip the threads or the head? Cause after stripping the first head, I am sure to bury the allen wrench into the socket.
That guy stripped the threads.  The argument was over whether to put in a helicoil or something similar to that or drill out the threads and put a nut on the other side.  The elder in the argument said put a helicoil or better and call it done.  The time saver wanted to drill the threads and put a nut on the other side.  I still say you have to have a "feel" for this stuff.  You have to had an idea of what's correct without the machine telling you what is correct.  I love giving a penny to some youngin that can't make change without a machine. :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on December 05, 2017, 07:52:25 am
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.


Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Stasch on December 05, 2017, 10:57:23 am
I have seen crush washers curled down over the nut and drain bolt that took a LOT of force to remove, bringing out stripped threads with it. 

While it does take some learning about how a torque wrench works and what the proper force is supposed to feel like, its something that should be learned.

Its been my observation that most people who are getting to know how to work on their own stuff seem to over tighten EVERYTHING.

The bikes with the problems I listed above usually had everything else tightened down with gorilla force as well.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: SteveJ. on December 05, 2017, 11:00:31 am
Something to keep in mind is that torque values are usually for clean and dry threads.  Oily threads tend to over torque. I'm not willing to spend the time drying an oil drain hole. Wipe with a clean towel and snug it up.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RWulf on December 05, 2017, 03:03:28 pm
I just don't understand. You spend thousands of dollars on your pride and joy.
You spend hundreds of dollars on the newest farkels. Yet you are to cheap to
buy a descent torque wrench and new washer.
I received a C-10 recently, with a cupped STEEL crush washer, and know way
to stop the oil from running out of the cracked oil pan.
I won't criticize my friends, I just don't understand.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: oldnslo_MO on December 05, 2017, 03:24:52 pm
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.
exactly  what kind of damage??? :??:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gilbysan on December 05, 2017, 04:27:36 pm
Wow Everyone- I just knew that this would spark a rash of feedback, etc. about the issue and here we are.  Great stuff!  Thanks to all for your input.

Still, I ended up doing is old school and am comfortable with it.  Yes, I have a nice torque wrench and yes it is on the longish side and somewhat difficult to get it proper aligned with the Oil Drain Bolt and the oil filter nut (K&N) since the one thing I don't have is a lift that would allow me to get under the chassis.  Yes, I could remove some plastic parts to get better access but did not.  Why not?  No excuse just a bit of laziness...

For the record, I am anal about crush washers from the type used on a certain rifle type and replace mine with new each time.  I supposed you could reverse the washer and "crush" the obverse side but for the cost of them whats the point?  I do save them all however because you never know, maybe some Cogger will figure out a way to salvage them...Or we can have a contest to guess how many crush washers are in the jar for a prize.  Good point about lubricated threads experiencing torque values differently, had not thought of that but I will now. 

Cheers!

Gilbysan
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gpd323 on December 05, 2017, 04:36:03 pm
I never use a TQ wrench on the drain bolts. I even reused the crush washers after flipping them over. Never stripped an oil pan, don't have oil drips. I kind of have a feel for how tight it should go and its never an issue. Same with my cars, same for decades.

Same with the oil filters. :beerchug:

OTH I have a friend who must use one, he is a Neanderthal when it comes to fasteners. he will break, strip and shear anything his hands with a wrench touch.

Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Bud on December 05, 2017, 05:14:17 pm
Quote
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
This statement just is not true.  I've changed oil on every vehicle I've owned for the past 41 years.  I have never used a torque wrench to tighten an oil drain plug.  I have never had an oil drain plug come loose.  Not once.  I understand why it's recommended to use but as long as it is sufficiently tightened, it doesn't matter if Micky Mouse got under there and tightened it with his toes!  I would really doubt the mechanical abilities of anyone that can't properly tighten an oil drain plug without a torque wrench.  If one can't manage that without catastrophic engine failure, then they should stay far far away from mechanical work.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: SteveJ. on December 05, 2017, 05:57:58 pm
Just to keep things interesting I'll add that with 234,xxx on my now sold c-10 I'm sure I didn't replace the crush washers more than two or three times. Oil change interval probably averaged 6k miles. Never used a torque wrench. Just made sure that the area and bolt were free of dirt. YMMV.

 :beerchug:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: flashback50 on December 05, 2017, 06:22:19 pm

Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.

Also don't forget to wear your hardhat and safety vest while using your delicate torque wrench   :)) :beerchug:

Just having fun mate :beerchug:

But I believe your post was made in jest ;D
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: NinjaBreadMan on December 05, 2017, 07:38:22 pm
Hi Bob -
I bought one of your first helmet holders, and it's awesome!  It provides a place to keep my helmet and jackets organized next to the bike.  Thanks again for coming up with this useful accessory!

I have a torque wrench but it's too large for working under the motorcycle.  Instead, I use an appropriate size small socket driver and don't push it too much.  Then take it for a test drive and look for leaks.  I've never had a leak from many times of tightening the bolt without a torque wrench, and never an issue removing it later.  For the oil filter, I always put a thin oil coating on the gasket, notice when the gasket contacts metal, and tighten another 3/4 turn.  Never had a filter leak using this method.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on December 05, 2017, 07:50:33 pm
I have almost forgotten to add the most important detail of this very delicate procedure.
To avoid possibility of oil drain plug loosening due to vibrations or other only to God known forces, use aircraft grade safety wire.

Cheers... 
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Gitbox on December 05, 2017, 08:19:00 pm
Quote
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.

Love the sarcasm.  :)
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RWulf on December 05, 2017, 08:52:08 pm
What we are calling a crush washer is not really a crush washer (like spark plug washer)
it just a soft washer that seals. You can re-use as long as there are no scratches from the
inside to the outside, would make a nice groove for oil to leak.
If you are willing to work on motors and accept money for your time then it's best to use
a torque wrench. I have a calibrator on the wall 5 ft from the lift so I have no excuse
for not using a wrench.
Do a search in the archives as how I make the calibrator if you want.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: JTX on December 05, 2017, 10:48:48 pm
The part I find difficult about torque settings are the small settings of 10-12 Foot pounds.  Most wrenches don't go that low.


So you have to go with an inch-pound wrench and do the math.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: P07r0457 on December 06, 2017, 03:00:50 am
The part I find difficult about torque settings are the small settings of 10-12 Foot pounds.  Most wrenches don't go that low.

So you have to go with an inch-pound wrench and do the math.

multiplying by 12 isn't rocket surgery  ;)
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: gsun on December 06, 2017, 04:24:56 am
You can do surgery on a rocket?  :017:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on December 06, 2017, 07:41:00 am
The part I find difficult about torque settings are the small settings of 10-12 Foot pounds.  Most wrenches don't go that low.

So you have to go with an inch-pound wrench and do the math.

multiplying by 12 isn't rocket surgery  ;)
For some it is more than that!
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on December 06, 2017, 07:41:50 am
You can do surgery on a rocket?  :017:
Well, certainly. After few of these  :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Smitty on December 06, 2017, 04:34:39 pm
You can do surgery on a rocket?  :017:

Yes, we do it in the Air Force daily.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: Smitty on December 06, 2017, 04:40:51 pm
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.

This sounds like something out of an Military Technical Order...especially the PPE part...I don't miss those things  ;D
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: JimBob on December 06, 2017, 09:00:54 pm
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.

This sounds like something out of an Military Technical Order...especially the PPE part...I don't miss those things  ;D


Like the requirement of using an 8’ monkey tail when your platform is 4’ off the ground?


 :-[
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on December 07, 2017, 09:52:52 am
Using proper torque on an engine oil drain plug is crucial to the health of the engine.
Failure to use calibrated and certified torque wrench will result in severe internal damage of an engine.
Also, use of proper PPE is vital while performing delicate torqueing procedure.

This sounds like something out of an Military Technical Order...especially the PPE part...I don't miss those things  ;D



Like the requirement of using an 8’ monkey tail when your platform is 4’ off the ground?


 :-[
Is platform suspended or levitating?
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: rcannon409 on December 09, 2017, 11:59:22 am
The part I find difficult about torque settings are the small settings of 10-12 Foot pounds.  Most wrenches don't go that low.


So you have to go with an inch-pound wrench and do the math.

This is where Ive seen people have trouble....not because they were not able to multiply by 12, but because these 10-12lb bolts were often related to the oil drain plug.

One year, Yamaha gave away really nice Snap-on Torque wrenches with a purchase of a new YZ, offroad motorcycle.

It was not even a month before three members ripped the threads from their oil pan. Except, on the two strokes, there was no "oil pan", there were "case halves".....($$$$) to replace.

The problem was the suggested torque figures were with a brand new, DRY bolt. Very tough to do on an oil drain ....

So, with that in mind, do you guys know of a rule  thumb that a responsible owner should use when working in an area like this?

Lets say you have that drain bolt and theirs really no way to keep it oil free. Do you re-set the wrench to reflect 25% lower?  -50%?
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: khager01 on December 09, 2017, 02:07:22 pm
I always assumed if the torque spec was for say an oil drain plug, they took that into consideration that it was going to be oily.  I have always just used the torque spec quoted in the manual for everything I have car or bike, and haven't stripped one out yet, or had one come loose.

On another bike of mine,  (Wee-Strom) there were a lot of problems with galling and stripping the threads of the rear axle, where the spec is for a dry bolt.  The consensus was to use anti-seize and 15-20% less torque, and no one had any problems after that.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: RWulf on December 09, 2017, 03:33:45 pm
I think this idea of a clean bolt got mix up with the idea of
a dry bolt. What happens when you use tread lock? Is that
dry? I think clean and dry are not the same. Clean yes, dry?
Years ago we measured torque by the stretch of the bolt.
Today we turn a bolt so many degrees beyond a torque point.
Go to a school that teaches mackinac's and ask the instructor
how they teach it. Anti seize is a grease isn't it?
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: rcannon409 on December 10, 2017, 02:52:08 pm
I was told in a class....Im not sure I can even  explain this class..It was pretty silly. Our company made us attend a 8 hour training class, from a well known fitting manufacturer (located in Houston, Tx) before we were allowed to install 1/4 unions on 1/4 inch stainless steel tubing that was going to be filled with 25psi of compressed air....

The topic of torque, thread lock, and torque wrenches came up.  It had to since we met the classes goal within 10 minutes and still had 7hrs, 50 minutes to fill...

The instructor did say thread lock for sure counted as a "wet" bolt.    He claimed it was a good idea to reduce the setting on your torque wrench 25% when dealing with a wet bolt vs dry.

 He said there was also a difference between a brand new bolt as opposed to one that had been used before.

I know this is going to the ridiculous level, but probably worth considering since the cost is so high on some of the parts we can damage.
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: strum on December 10, 2017, 03:03:14 pm
For me anyway . if I gotta guess our torque wrench settings. I mean go 25% lower or maybe 15% lower then the torque wrench is useless.
 You guys are right that values are set with dry/new/clean threads.
  This is a case where a good experienced "feel" for tight is sufficient.
  There are certain things I will use a torque wrench for but an oil drain plug? Furgetaboutit.
 
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: oldnslo_MO on December 11, 2017, 12:49:57 am
 :iagree:
Title: Re: Importance of applying Torque Settings for Oil Drain Bolt and Oil Filter?
Post by: rcannon409 on December 11, 2017, 01:22:19 pm
Yes, great points....reducing the setting 25%, 15%, or whatever just becomes a more exact guess, does'nt it?

Ive never used a torque wrench other than when rebuilding motors. Head gaskets, and things like that. Like you said, its just not useful if all we are doing is guessing.