Ivans New reflash for the Concours 14

[rcannon409]

Hi Roland,
For what it's worth, you are still listed on your posts as a forum subscriber.  IIRC you need to log out then back in to update this.  Then you won't be accused of being a non dues-paying member.
Thanks for re-upping!

Thank you. I just kept watching it. Hoping it would change...lol

I always liked the little address book, too.  Also, about the first time Fred reveals the alternate mounting point for our rearsets, the membership more than paid for itself.

[rcannon409]

One thing that's impressed me, with Ivan, is he will do updates free of charge.  Tune changes, are free as well.  No extra charge to go to the full exhaust tune.

This holds true for the future owners of the bike.  If i sell my bike to you, you would pay only for the postage to send it to, and from , foor the updates, or changes.

[Trey]

Really not trying to bash Ivan, but if you look at his dyno chart vs. Shoodabeen. Steves torque curve looks better.  I'm not even looking at numbers because two different dynos and such. 

[Egodriver71]

Really not trying to bash Ivan, but if you look at his dyno chart vs. Shoodabeen. Steve's torque curve looks better.  I'm not even looking at numbers because two different dynos and such.

Steve was more about area under the curve rather than an absolute number.

But most people don't understand area under the curve...

[Deepsea]

Lots of things people don't understand, not just under the curve. The effects of rotating mass (including the crankshaft), Bhp v Tq, + and - sonic wave, exhaust Dv vs Dp, lots of science here that most riders have no need to explore.
Just be happy someone else does and enjoy the ride.

[rcannon409]

sorry guys....

[Deepsea]

Just looked at the updated page. If he's going to call out an competitor as being less than honest then just call a spade a spade and name names. Anything less is pure conjecture as far as I'm concerned. When using someone else data without "Credits" it means nothing. If your going to publish it name it. Sorry but anything less is deceptive and if your not willing to be straight up then shut up.

[MAN OF BLUES]

I dont know if you've seen Ivans page, recently....he updated it, and added a page #2.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_2.htm

Sorry, but knowing Steve, and exactly how much time, and money he put out to get his stuff straight.. I find the "following in the footsteps and trying to emulate and over state" findings a bit... well, smarmy b/s.

I'm willing to bet, Ivan is using the EXACT same software that Bubba has been using, as getting the results in incremental blocks is the telltale feature.
I know exactly what Bubba went thru, to re program, and adjust accordingly all of the bazillion "bits" in the charting..

Pretymuch I see Ivan as throwing down the gauntlet, and calling Bubba out, as there is no one anywhere else in the USA besides these 2, pushing it.

I'm not backing either as being the "best", but I do back my pal, that worked long and hard, to develop a tune package in different modes, for offer to this group...

Maybe if Ivan was an industry member, and actually cared about further endeavors for the benefit of his peers, the members of this GROUP, he maight get some creds...
 Just hawking a tune, for cash, with no desire to affiliate, in my honest opinion... well, just send money.

[Daytona_Mike]

I dont know if you've seen Ivans page, recently....he updated it, and added a page #2.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_2.htm

Sorry, but knowing Steve, and exactly how much time, and money he put out to get his stuff straight.. I find the "following in the footsteps and trying to emulate and over state" findings a bit... well, smarmy b/s.

I'm willing to bet, Ivan is using the EXACT same software that Bubba has been using, as getting the results in incremental blocks is the telltale feature.
I know exactly what Bubba went thru, to re program, and adjust accordingly all of the bazillion "bits" in the charting..

Pretymuch I see Ivan as throwing down the gauntlet, and calling Bubba out, as there is no one anywhere else in the USA besides these 2, pushing it.

I'm not backing either as being the "best", but I do back my pal, that worked long and hard, to develop a tune package in different modes, for offer to this group...

Maybe if Ivan was an industry member, and actually cared about further endeavors for the benefit of his peers, the members of this GROUP, he maight get some creds...
 Just hawking a tune, for cash, with no desire to affiliate, in my honest opinion... well, just send money.

Well said and I fully agree...     By the way.. Who can say that they are high tech and buy my stuff (Ivan) and NOT even have an email??  That should tell you something right there.

[rcannon409]

It's not always hard work that opens doors.  It takes hard work,and the proper tools.

Ivan uses his own software, built specifically for his use, and the bikes he chooses to tune.. Its been that way since the beginning.


Ivan also,offers free tune changes.  Buy an exhaust, and he will reflash to that for no additional charge.   

If this reflash is passion driven, and a deep love of the concours 14,  why does the guy we are not naming charge for this?

As time goes on, products and methods improve.  . 

The reaction to this is funny.  Instead of worrying about performance, it's all about his e mail address? 

All he's doing is offering you a "non-woolich"  option and saying he'd rather talk to a owner on the phone, and not be holding old e mail's with owners name, address, credit card info.

Seriously?

He has updated page 1 to include the slip on's.

[Deepsea]

It's much more than offering a "non-woolich" or wanting to talk by phone. I have no particular tie to Steve or Guhl or any other vender. What I do have is a deep respect for fairness and credit where credit is due, good or bad. Insinuation doesn't count and is always bad form. To publish someone else work without a "Credit line" is just wrong. If someone doesn't have the stones to own what they print they shouldn't be printing it. As I said before, keep it straight up. Period. This applies equally to everyone IMHO.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Well I assume everyone is ondering why I've been radio silent. The fact is that I'm on vacation at the beach, so I've tried to be on vacation. Of course I have a lot to say on this, but forr now a couple points:  1- Ivan has had a good reputation in all that I've heard 2- he's right, there is outright bs and lies in the flashing game, and for those who are trying to judge a flash by dyno numbers it's easy to be misled. 3- those charts he posted are not my charts. My charts can be seen on my site. 4- if anyone is calling me a liar or misleading folks, well you better lace up your boots. I've been in this group for 12 years, a couple thousand concours customers and nobody has ever accused me of dishonesty, because I am not dishonest. 5- I'll be back to my computer the 1st, I suggest if anyone wants to question my ability / motivation / business practices etc we can take it up then. Steve

[MAN OF BLUES]

 

[Deepsea]

Let the fun begin.

[rcannon409]

How much does someone care about their customers/fellow members when he has to be less than truthful in order to sell his product?

It's very easy to see that his dyno charts were done in 2 different gears, and you don't have to be a dyno guru to know this. It's because the gear ratio is listed for each run on the top right of his charts. This automatically gives full credibility to Ivan's page.

The concours shows 140+ hp on most dyno charts with a slipon exhaust... Just look at any website that has a chart or specs listed. More important than the numbers is the fact that there is no dip in the torque at low rpm with a stock ecu in the normal mode or on the Gen1 bikes. (only the eco mode has more restrictions)

Who really cares about his customers?
Someone who will say anything to sell his work?
(choosing $$$$$ over his customer base's knowing the truth about what the gains really are)

Or, someone who always gives the truth and lets his work speak for itself in almost every country around the world since the 90's?
Ivan's success was not earned easily. nobody's is (unless it's inherited).

A long time ago, I asked Ivan why he doesn't do email... His answer was, because his customer base is so large, that if his email was public, he wouldn't be able to do anything else.
He would rather speak to you in person.... it's more personal, and he feels this is the best way to do business and take care of his customers properly. He's old school, and does business the old fashioned way. I personally prefer this to email any day of the week.

How would anyone know the effort that Ivan put into his products? I'm sure there are way more blood, sweat and tears developing every facet of what your products are vs. buying a software and spending time with just that.

In the end, who really cares about this?
People just want their bike to run as best/powerful/efficient as it possibly can... nobody really wants to hold hands and sing.
Ivan isn't asking anyone to hold hands and sing either... he wants you to get what you pay for, and to know what you are actually paying for.

He'll likely have this bike for at least 3-4 years (maybe longer) and offer improvements at no charge to anyone that has his product whether you bought it from him or not.

Does this not count as a commitment to anyone who owns this bike and his product?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

How much does someone care about their customers/fellow members when he has to be less than truthful in order to sell his product?

It's very easy to see that his dyno charts were done in 2 different gears, and you don't have to be a dyno guru to know this. It's because the gear ratio is listed for each run on the top right of his charts. This automatically gives full credibility to Ivan's page.

The concours shows 140+ hp on most dyno charts with a slipon exhaust... Just look at any website that has a chart or specs listed. More important than the numbers is the fact that there is no dip in the torque at low rpm with a stock ecu in the normal mode or on the Gen1 bikes. (only the eco mode has more restrictions)

Who really cares about his customers?
Someone who will say anything to sell his work?
(choosing $$$$$ over his customer base's knowing the truth about what the gains really are)

Or, someone who always gives the truth and lets his work speak for itself in almost every country around the world since the 90's?
Ivan's success was not earned easily. nobody's is (unless it's inherited).

A long time ago, I asked Ivan why he doesn't do email... His answer was, because his customer base is so large, that if his email was public, he wouldn't be able to do anything else.
He would rather speak to you in person.... it's more personal, and he feels this is the best way to do business and take care of his customers properly. He's old school, and does business the old fashioned way. I personally prefer this to email any day of the week.

How would anyone know the effort that Ivan put into his products? I'm sure there are way more blood, sweat and tears developing every facet of what your products are vs. buying a software and spending time with just that.

In the end, who really cares about this?
People just want their bike to run as best/powerful/efficient as it possibly can... nobody really wants to hold hands and sing.
Ivan isn't asking anyone to hold hands and sing either... he wants you to get what you pay for, and to know what you are actually paying for.

He'll likely have this bike for at least 3-4 years (maybe longer) and offer improvements at no charge to anyone that has his product whether you bought it from him or not.

Does this not count as a commitment to anyone who owns this bike and his product?

                      rcannon, just to be clear here, when you say " less than truthful to sell product" are you talking about me and Shoodaben Engineering? Steve

[WANDRNG]

This thread is beginning to ...  well... stink and leave a bad taste. And it's not going anywhere good or gonna get better.

rcannon - what started as testimonial for some guys product/service, then oddly progressed into a promotional feel, has now slimed into the negative atmosphere of a hit piece.  You're not doing Ivan any favors here any longer.  Does Ivan even know about this thread and your actions seemingly in his name?  My thought is you should probably stop. Maybe even back track a little. Before you do real damage to Ivan and his reputation here.  Ivan may make a great product and have great service, but this thread is casting it all in kind of a bad light.

Steve - Hope you take the high road here. I was kind of glad to see you not responding, a "let him have his say" vibe. Especially since it's not even Ivan.  I can see how some of the more recent posts might be getting your hackles up, can't blame you. But people here know you, know your product and service and ethics (lord knows we've seen and heard the testimonials of friends and fellow members). You have nothing to prove. Just saying you "stand behind your product" is probably words enough.  Hopin' you don't take the bait.


To all: Please tell us how great your product is. Please tell us how great your service is. Please tell us how it is a benefit to us/me. Please tell us how much you love the Concours, COG and our forum of riders.

But please do not tell us how bad, wrong, evil, misguided   ....  the other guy is.

Just my opinion.


Disclaimer: I've done business with neither. Can't read a dyno chart (over it or under it or right on top of it). Am not a big modification or farkler guy. Cheap and broke (a very bad combination). And not that great a rider so not all that concerned about increased performance. So probably not really a future customer of either. Just giving my two cents about this thread. - which I've read completely through (hijacks and all) and probably will not return too.

Have a great day.

[Tinsailor]

Well that sounded like the voice of reason.

[turbo-max]

well, i was going to say some choice words to/about Rcannon, but he is simply not worth my time and aggravation...taking the higher road...this time!

[Deepsea]

Haa, cheep and broke. Been there most of my life.

[4Bikes]

This thread is beginning to ...  well... stink and leave a bad taste. And it's not going anywhere good or gonna get better.

rcannon - what started as testimonial for some guys product/service, then oddly progressed into a promotional feel, has now slimed into the negative atmosphere of a hit piece.  You're not doing Ivan any favors here any longer.  Does Ivan even know about this thread and your actions seemingly in his name?  My thought is you should probably stop. Maybe even back track a little. Before you do real damage to Ivan and his reputation here.  Ivan may make a great product and have great service, but this thread is casting it all in kind of a bad light.

Steve - Hope you take the high road here. I was kind of glad to see you not responding, a "let him have his say" vibe. Especially since it's not even Ivan.  I can see how some of the more recent posts might be getting your hackles up, can't blame you. But people here know you, know your product and service and ethics (lord knows we've seen and heard the testimonials of friends and fellow members). You have nothing to prove. Just saying you "stand behind your product" is probably words enough.  Hopin' you don't take the bait.


To all: Please tell us how great your product is. Please tell us how great your service is. Please tell us how it is a benefit to us/me. Please tell us how much you love the Concours, COG and our forum of riders.

But please do not tell us how bad, wrong, evil, misguided   ....  the other guy is.

Just my opinion.


Disclaimer: I've done business with neither. Can't read a dyno chart (over it or under it or right on top of it). Am not a big modification or farkler guy. Cheap and broke (a very bad combination). And not that great a rider so not all that concerned about increased performance. So probably not really a future customer of either. Just giving my two cents about this thread. - which I've read completely through (hijacks and all) and probably will not return too.

Have a great day.

Keith,
Well said. Perhaps one of the best thread moderating advice ever tendered. I agree.

[rcannon409]

My intention here was not to cause any trouble. It was just to talk
about Ivan's Flash.

I'm sorry that it reads as a personal attack, against Steve, but it was a
response to other people's negative comments about where I got my work done.

From now on, I'll provide information for those who are
interested and my experience enjoying  this flash from day to day.

The bike is a completely new bike all over again.

I was going to buy Steve's reflash.  However, after studying his chart for slip-ons,
as well some exhaust manufacturers charts, something about Steve's chart did
not make sense to me.

I realized that the comparison chart was comparing two different gear ratios that were
different from each other appx. 20%, or about 1 gear apart  Its this chart:

https://fc3a7ead-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/shoodabenengineering/concours1400/Stock%20Vs%20Evolution.PNG?attachauth=ANoY7cr4rv997xdFvT0KZTT16qKewOPVdZsNvGjSIXBWmI5fPyE-EBqh5JwBQzKydhbDoyVZweKwv9pORbGDO1UrsPE9lVaD0A5avwRRkrSmqeGGb2K799bgPQPgylSGoDDvy3efqllkysxYlEZN7Ij4scO4VSRnellJtTfG_88owyv6GxanP9W48UgTgxTiwyUhANKlYNFv_qQ8oCsPa3Ul7qFSj6IBbVGgYhFoDMgMXMBfAdORFPLZb5Dirg3XL2TnWsR3ihkx&attredirects=0

Also, I couldn't find a C14 dyno chart that was as weak at low rpm anywhere.
This is what made me suspicious, and I chose to spend my money with my usual tuner.

Again, no intention to harm or attack anyone, just present some
information.

Sorry for getting angry.

[turbo-max]

My intention here was not to cause any trouble. It was just to talk
about Ivan's Flash.

I'm sorry that it reads as a personal attack, against Steve, but it was a
response to other people's negative comments about where I got my work done.

From now on, I'll provide information for those who are
interested and my experience enjoying  this flash from day to day.

The bike is a completely new bike all over again.

I was going to buy Steve's reflash.  However, after studying his chart for slip-ons,
as well some exhaust manufacturers charts, something about Steve's chart did
not make sense to me.

I realized that the comparison chart was comparing two different gear ratios that were
different from each other appx. 20%, or about 1 gear apart  Its this chart:


Also, I couldn't find a C14 dyno chart that was as weak at low rpm anywhere.
This is what made me suspicious, and I chose to spend my money with my usual tuner.

Again, no intention to harm or attack anyone, just present some
information.

Sorry for getting angry.

ok, i cant stay on course anymore...esp after all your posts and then a private message to me not understanding your wrong doings here....

you forgot to mention how many times you spoke with steve about particular tuning bits, then obviously appearing to go to "the other guy" and do some as i see it "swinging" on his private parts, then coming here to bash steve and his abilities,also His Dyno used to be mine, and there is no number jockinging, BUT that said steves number are corrected and the other guys are NOT, giving a falsely higher figure ...just calling as i see it, if i am wrong, i will admit it (if you can prove it)

[Bilbur]

Boy oh boy. This forum never ceases to amaze.

Anywho. Here's my take on this because this whole thread has gotten so off course it's just silly.

Both products from Ivan and Steve are great products from what I've been reading on either companies website.

Both companies offer fast turnaround and easy processing.

AND both companies apparently have strong emotional customers.

Now.

Having said all of that, if I was looking at both products on the "shelf" to buy, I would pick Steves' Area-P Flash. Why? Well here's 3 top reasons why.

1. Steve's Area-P flash is designed for Full Exhausts. Comparably, Ivan's is designed only for Slip-ons. Makes a big difference.
2. Steve's Full Flash is only $45 more for specific designed application. Comparably, Ivan's approach is a one-size-fits-most model.
3. Steve's Full Flash produces 160.83hp at 8,800rpm with 102ft-lbs of torque up to what I'm assuming is about 7,700 RPM and only a slight drop in torque down to 80ft-lbs up to redline. Comparably, Ivan's has a max hp rating of 148 hp up to red line, a difference of 12 hp and also a max torque of 98 ft-lbs however, the drop off of torque is a sharper drop off down to 75 ft-lbs at red line

Bonus points: Both maps do have similar power bands and the nitty gritty can be argued. But, NO ONE can argue with the numbers. Steve's is more HP and Faster build of HP. Ivan's maxes out at 148 hp at about 7800 rpm. Steve's flash Passes Ivan's numbers at the same point but keep climbing to the butt clenching hp of 160 hp just a mere 1000 rpm later.


For me, I'd spend my dollar on steve's because I'm getting a more specific product tailored for my build and MORE of everything.


Edit: A more simple statement would be: Ivan only does flashes for slip-ons. Steve does a flash for every basic application. Including stock with his decel flash and evo flash. I like specifics. Steve took the time to get specific. That's the true value here.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

My intention here was not to cause any trouble. It was just to talk
about Ivan's Flash.

I'm sorry that it reads as a personal attack, against Steve, but it was a
response to other people's negative comments about where I got my work done.

From now on, I'll provide information for those who are
interested and my experience enjoying  this flash from day to day.

The bike is a completely new bike all over again.

I was going to buy Steve's reflash.  However, after studying his chart for slip-ons,
as well some exhaust manufacturers charts, something about Steve's chart did
not make sense to me.

I realized that the comparison chart was comparing two different gear ratios that were
different from each other appx. 20%, or about 1 gear apart  Its this chart:

https://fc3a7ead-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/shoodabenengineering/concours1400/Stock%20Vs%20Evolution.PNG?attachauth=ANoY7cr8rj3NBYhKZanOT2Yc8TdYjUQvRe49HfmOB1VZ-V4t8ZePY-ENg1d6R00qCwMYFZ9_1ExeR5wTGSui2oTJ1wsnA_vRYjAkYe9MhNLmHGPJaQmCLLpe1dYkGuESO2MBU2v6TXDp1Fwobm-Z4pODmoNUO2s4hUx0wn5gNvay_C_sMCZcOqG9cOKLDEFViE2g2ijykRMlcY5yaGiPPugwvGb-5e6PSYFPSiCgz5R7l4qX851Zgz3rKCOA_DkhhNylDwf1ofjZ&attredirects=1

Also, I couldn't find a C14 dyno chart that was as weak at low rpm anywhere.
This is what made me suspicious, and I chose to spend my money with my usual tuner.

Again, no intention to harm or attack anyone, just present some
information.

Sorry for getting angry.

   OK, thanks Rcannon for clearing that up for me, you ARE accusing me of being "less than truthful" and I appreciate you explaining that you think I posted a "weak" stock chart in order to make my flash look better. So let's look at that.

  First,  let's look at 2 charts...we'll use my chart that you kindly posted in your post above, and Ivan's stock ecu chart, the first one on his site, with stock run #5 listed as his stock run. We'll use the torque trace as comparison because it's more granular and easier to work with.

  Ivan started his run around 17-1800 rpm, I started mine around 2200 rpm. Both charts show the same 2500 rpm flattening / dip, Mine is decidedly weaker at that 2500 rpm point than Ivan's but my run had just started 2-300 rpm before whereas Ivan's already was making power for an extra 500 rpm or so.

  Next, let's look at 3000 rpm... Both runs are running about 70# Tq... no appreciable difference.

  the same is true for 4-5-6000 rpm. the runs are very close to each other.

  To say my stock run is "weak" really falls down when it's actually 5 hp higher than Ivans.

  Now you're playing on the "gear" difference. Let's look at that. I selected the 2 runs NOT because I could "play games" with the chart, but because the start and stop points on each run were so close to each other. In fact if anything the stock run gets help by being in 4th gear whereas my flashed run was in 5th gear.

  Of course, after reading what you wrote, and then reviewing what Ivan posted on his page 2, I came to understand what you're alleging... that I used ECO mode to make my flashed run look better.

  So let me state this in as clear a method as I can.

  My stock runs were NOT done in ECO mode. I did nothing to mislead, and my dyno runs are what the dyno recorded. Heck, I even use SAE correction, not STD which would bump my numbers up. Who uses STD? HMMM.

  My advise at this point would be to "tread lightly" on your allegations. Think before you post... I would hate it if you did something to materially affect my ability to make a living by making incorrect and libelous statements as "factual".

   Oh, and one more thing... you also made statements about how I'm all about the money. Are you aware that I have donated almost 1600.00 worth of product and labor to COG within the last year? for COG members, just like you.

  You're welcome.

Steve

 ETA... going back to vacation. I only have a couple days left