Author Topic: KiPASS and extra keys  (Read 13161 times)

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Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2014, 03:44:54 pm »
>...hence the birth of the "K- rock" to beat on the ignition switch housing

AHaaaaaa...so Wade has been reading! Good sign!  :PDT_Armataz_01_37:

Offline gPink

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2014, 03:52:53 pm »
I just found this forum. Thanks to all who have put it together. I have a 2012 C14 and only got 1 fob from the dealer. Did these bikes come with 2? I would like to get another one, and it sounds more complex than it should be. Is there a permanent fix for the fob like putting in a real key ignition ?

Hi Ned. Welcome to the forum. You've luckily dropped in on one of the more entertaining threads going right now. Yes the bike should come with 2. Don't lose the one you have til you get a backup or you're really screwed. Stick around. You'll be entertained and informed.

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2014, 03:59:12 pm »
I just found this forum.


Welcome!  :welcome:

Did these bikes come with 2?


Yes, a fat one and a skinny one. The skinny one is passive in that you have to....it's in the owner's manual. Hopefully you got one of those from the dealer?


Is there a permanent fix for the fob like putting in a real key ignition ?


No, not yet. Other than selling it and getting a FJR as some have done, but many here think that may be an overreaction.


I think if you have some patience you'll find this to be an excellent motorcycle, and this to be a pretty good group (of course there will be differences
of opinion and a few joking or smart arse responses, as in any large group) and once again welcome Ned.  :)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 04:02:53 pm by fartymarty »

Offline WadeNelson

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2014, 04:04:01 pm »
.. I have a 2012 C14 and only got 1 fob from the dealer. ..I would like to get another one...


If i had it to do all over I'd buy an EMERGENCY fob for $35 as a second fob.   You could put it in the saddlebags or hide it under the seat and it wouldn't activate the KiPASS unlocking mechanism; AND you'd need a metal key to gain access to it in either of those places.  Keep spare metal keys around, at home, or HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT as suggested by a commenter in another thread --- the head ground down and JB Welded into a radio knob left in the seat cylinder...

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,41805.0.html

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41805.0;attach=12408;image

Start by finding a dealer who can sell and cut you an extra METAL key.  Or three.  And plan on paying them 1/2 hour labor to PROGRAM your new Emergency Fob....

No one, so far, has offered a solution to completely disabling and/or removing KiPASS and just using metal keys to operate the bike.   But how could you be so gauche, so unsophisticated, as to simply want to insert and TWIST a key to operate your bike.  What kind of cretin are you?  How dare you own a Concours!  ;) 

I thought you had to buy a BMW to enduro this level of techno-snobbery, but apparently I was wrong!   I've gotta go, gotta see a man about a horse. ;)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 04:45:07 pm by WadeNelson »

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2014, 04:19:52 pm »
If i had it to do all over I'd buy an EMERGENCY fob for $35 as a second fob.   You could put it in the saddlebags or hide it under the seat and it wouldn't activate the KiPASS unlocking mechanism; AND you'd need a metal key to gain access to it in either of those places.  Keep spare metal keys around, at home, wherever.

Start by finding a dealer who can sell and cut you an extra METAL key.  Or three. 

No one, so far, has offered a solution to completely disabling and/or removing KiPASS and just using metal keys to operate the bike.   But how could you be so gauche, so unsophisticated, as to simply want to insert and remove a key to operate your bike.  What kind of cretin are you?  How dare you own a Concours!  ;) 

I thought you had to buy a BMW to enduro this level of techno-snobbery, but apparently I was wrong!   I've gotta go, gotta see a man about a horse. ;)


Now I enjoyed that!   :D  :bravo_2:

You've gone from a griping, non-reading, complaining, KIPASS ranter to a reading, helpful, witty responding COGGer who's opinion of KIPASS is unchanged,
but yet now knowledgeable (there's that reading again).

 I think our work here is done.

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 04:56:05 pm »
Oy Vei! That is NOT a HORSE, it is a MULE!



Mules are better than horses: stronger, healtier, longer lived and perhaps best of all, you can leave Mama mule and Papa mule together unsupervised and they cannot make any Baby mules! Now that is technology you can really sink your teeth into!

But hey, best of luck with that new vehicle. Be sure to check its teeth and take it for a test- gallop before plunking down any money.

 :rotflmao:

Brian



<snip>

 I've gotta go, gotta see a man about a horse. ;)
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2014, 05:01:11 pm »
Your poor attempts at distraction will do you no good Sir! Go fix your website and quit with the diversions!

Brian (or as I am sometimes know, Fartymarty   :rotflmao: )

Now I enjoyed that!   :D  :bravo_2:

You've gone from a griping, non-reading, complaining, KIPASS ranter to a reading, helpful, witty responding COGGer who's opinion of KIPASS is unchanged,
but yet now knowledgeable (there's that reading again).

 I think our work here is done.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2014, 05:19:32 pm »
....you can leave Mama mule and Papa mule together unsupervised and they cannot make any Baby mules!
Brian, I can't believe this (oxymoron) came from your keyboard.  ;D

.....and take it for a test- gallop before plunking down any money.

Being a city boy, I never knew that mules could gallop. This forum is so educational.  :)

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2014, 05:39:02 pm »
Not following the oxymoron reference. ?? Mules cannot mate and produce offspring because they are genetically defective; a horse has 64 chromosomes. A donkey has 62. A mule has 63, as it is a hybrid and as we all know, you cannot divide an odd number by two. Therefore, two mules cannot generate any more mules; to get a mule you need to start with a horse and a donkey. It is sort of like KiPass; you have a bike and a fob. You use them together and you get a ride. But you cannot use two fobs to generate a third fob or two bikes to generate a third bike; you have to go to the Kawasaki store and buy a fob or a bike which I must assume is made by crossing two different species of electronics together that only Kawasaki has.

I am a city boy too but I know that mules can gallop. They are really an exceptional equine animal, tougher, smarter and stronger than either a donkey or a horse. It is called the hybrid vigor and is supposedly why we (homo sapiens sapiens) are so successful.... although every now and then a particular individual will show definite links to earlier breeds such as Cro Magnon or less fortunately and sometimes on Internet forums, Neanderthal. :-(

Marty (there goes that Neanderthal part....)

....you can leave Mama mule and Papa mule together unsupervised and they cannot make any Baby mules!
Brian, I can't believe this (oxymoron) came from your keyboard.  ;D

.....and take it for a test- gallop before plunking down any money.

Being a city boy, I never knew that mules could gallop. This forum is so educational.  :)
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2014, 05:53:22 pm »
Wow, I pity the poor person that searches for KIPASS, FOB, Mule, Donkey, or Horse from this point on.  They are going to be thinking WTH???? :-[
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2014, 06:40:53 pm »
Not following the oxymoron reference. ??

....you can leave Mama female mule and Papa male mule together unsupervised and they cannot make any Baby mules!

Brian

Offline Ned

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2014, 06:59:33 pm »
Thank you for the welcome. I can't help.with the mules, sorry. I am however learning about them on the Concurs Owners Forum. Thanks everyone

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2014, 07:49:11 pm »
Ah yes, he gets it now. He is too embarrassed to show up here right now though (this is really Kirby using Brian's sign- in under the guise of Marty). Yeah, I cannot believe he missed that one too- the 'Mama' and 'Papa' reference put two of the very few mammals in existence that cannot be parents.

Well, I gotta' go as Mr. Elkhoof is waiting to use the keyboard....

Kirby


....you can leave Mama female mule and Papa male mule together unsupervised and they cannot make any Baby mules!

Brian
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Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2014, 07:58:38 pm »
Welcome aboard Ned! Let me put my proverbial arm around your shoulders and see if I can ease your entry (easy boys!) into the world of KiPass. And let me say you have chosen an absolutely exceptional thread to 'step aboard' in- this thread has everything, thrills, chills, spills, mules, Hondas and cantankerous posters (you know who you are).

First of all, KiPass is wonderful. I was born with only one fob and didn't actually have two until I bought my C-14 and I have to say, having two fobs is even better than having one. Your life is about to take a turn for the better with a fob in your pocket.

Now onto your question: ALL C-14's come with two fobs and always have. If you bought your '12 new, the dealer has the fob that goes with the bike or they lost it; I would suggest going back and getting the second fob or a replacement, either way it is the dealers' responsibility to supply a new owner with both. If you bought the bike used, I would suggest buying another fob and having the bike programmed to recognize it fairly soon. There is no problem having only one fob but there is a significant problem if you lose or damage the last fob that goes with the bike because the bike can only be programmed to respond to new fobs if a previously registered fob is present. Put another way, a C-14 without any fobs will cause a fair amount of expense (~$1,000 for a new KiPass ECU, the two fobs that will come with it and labor to install / program). So the goal is to always have two valid, registered fobs for the bike just in case anything happens to one of them.

As Marty said, there are two types of fob available and if you have to buy one, you will need to choose which you want. We can expand on that if you want.

Otherwise, enjoy the bike!

Brian (really, my name is Brian)



I just found this forum. Thanks to all who have put it together. I have a 2012 C14 and only got 1 fob from the dealer. Did these bikes come with 2? I would like to get another one, and it sounds more complex than it should be. Is there a permanent fix for the fob like putting in a real key ignition ?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Ned

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2014, 08:39:41 pm »
Do I need both fobs in order to get a spare matched up to my bike. I am sure this is covered in the owner's manual,  but I don't have it right now. I expect it is with my small key fob that I am not sure I got from the dealer

Offline gPink

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2014, 08:51:17 pm »
I think all fobs need to be present for the ceremony.

Offline MikeJ

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2014, 09:34:18 pm »
This thread is great entertainment - gotta be worth the membership fee on its own!

Just to add further confusion, when I purchased my new 2014 C14 I was provided with a green paper tab attached to the main fob which contained the vehicle details, including VIN, as well as a five digit code in the format 'K' followed by 4 numbers. I think(?) the dealer told me this was the fob I.D. In case i lost mine.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?
2014 Candy Cardinal Red

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2014, 09:34:31 pm »
You only need one valid fob to register new fobs.

But you have to bring all your current fobs with you to register new fobs because you have to re- register the RFID portion of the fobs you already have also.

I know that is not really overly clear so maybe I can say it differently: you will not have any problem getting new fob(s) registered into the bike if you only have one valid fob. But if you have two fobs, for example, and want a third fob, you must bring both of the fobs you already have with you when registering the third fob because the first two must be re- registered when the third one is added. This rule applies to any number of fobs you have when adding a new one. There is a limit of six fobs and frankly, I cannot imagine anyone actually reaching that limit.... but still, it is a limit.

KiPass fobs are really quite robust and durable- I have never heard of one failing that was not abused and pretty badly abused at that. Most of the ones that go through the washer / dryer actually survive once thoroughly dried and when a new battery is put in them. Just treat it like a wallet or anything else you want to carry and not lose and all will be well. I have the original two that my '08 came with (purchased in '07) and both work fine despite repeated attempts to soak them in various fluids.



What is even more amazing is that a fob will actually work when submerged in a glass of soda:



You would think that it would interfere with the RF but such is the mighty, mad pow- ah of KiPass.

Brian

Do I need both fobs in order to get a spare matched up to my bike. I am sure this is covered in the owner's manual,  but I don't have it right now. I expect it is with my small key fob that I am not sure I got from the dealer
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2014, 09:39:05 pm »
Yes, I can confirm that this thread is great entertainment!

As to the numbers on the tag: the valid numbers are on the Kawasaki parts tag that are on the bag that the fob originally came in. They are gray and white, not green- at least I have never seen a green one and I got lots of Kawasaki parts.

Besides that, that number is of no use to you or anyone if you lose the fob. It would only be useful if you sold the fob to someone else who had a C-14 and wanted to have his / her bike programmed to recognize the fob you sold them.

By the way, be careful if buying used fobs, at least the RF fobs (the ones with the battery in them): they are virtually useless unless you have the programming code number and virtually all used fobs do NOT come with that number. When I bought my C-14, my fobs were loose (easy boys!) and I did not receiver the numbers that went with them so they would not have much fair market value.

Brian

This thread is great entertainment - gotta be worth the membership fee on its own!

Just to add further confusion, when I purchased my new 2014 C14 I was provided with a green paper tab attached to the main fob which contained the vehicle details, including VIN, as well as a five digit code in the format 'K' followed by 4 numbers. I think(?) the dealer told me this was the fob I.D. In case i lost mine.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2014, 01:06:58 am »
But you have to bring all your current fobs with you to register new fobs because you have to re- register the RFID portion of the fobs you already have also.

I know that is not really overly clear so maybe I can say it differently: you will not have any problem getting new fob(s) registered into the bike if you only have one valid fob. But if you have two fobs, for example, and want a third fob, you must bring both of the fobs you already have with you when registering the third fob because the first two must be re- registered when the third one is added. This rule applies to any number of fobs you have when adding a new one. There is a limit of six fobs and frankly, I cannot imagine anyone actually reaching that limit.... but still, it is a limit.

Is that a lifetime limit or current in place limit? That is to say can old FOB numbers be cleared out and the number slots (or whatever they are called) be filled with the new FOB codes? If I recall correctly Brian, from your tech presentation at the National, there are two registers? one for the active fob(s) and one for the RFIDs? (Note to COG: video tape COG National presentations and after editing for any mis-speak errors (if any) then sell them in the COG store. $$$  :) )

 I recently lost an active FOB and I ordered a new one as well as an extra passive FOB. The Kawasaki dealer service dept. added the new active FOB and the new passive FOB and all checked out OK (both passive fobs {old and new} worked and the active FOB worked) however, when I removed the battery to check the passive part of the active FOB it didn't work and gave me the "SUBKEY ID ERROR" msg on the display. So now I have to take all my FOBs back and get it redone apparently. I actually asked the service desk guy if both the passive as well as the active part of the main fob were done and he said he'd check. He went back to the service area and returned and said yes. If it hadn't been raining I would have checked it all right there in the parking lot. I'm not super happy about it, but then the place also works on Hondas, Yamaha wave runners, and a bunch of different ATVs so I can't really expect error free performance all the time. I certainly don't get it from me, so why should I expect it from them? Now, if they try to charge me more, well then that's a different matter. I think I'm going to show up with a good attitude and a box of donuts or kalaches for the service department and see how that goes.  ;) fingers crossed.

I certainly hope what you said about registering all the FOBs only applies to the RFID part, because I doubt they recorded the active FOB number anywhere.

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2014, 02:14:52 am »
OK, now we are getting down to the finer points of KiPass.

There are two distinct segments to KiPass: the main one is under the saddle, directly under where the rider (not pillion) sits. That is both the main KiPass ECU as well as the RF receiver. That unit has six (6) one- time writable slots to accept and register KiPass fobs but only the RF portion. This means that once a memory slot is used to register or validate a fob, and that fob is lost or destroyed, that slot can never be used again for another fob. Should a bike ever go through six fobs and the owner(s) / rider(s) lose or destroy all of them, no more fobs can ever be programmed to work with the KiPass ECU as RF or remote fobs.

The other section of KiPass is the circuit inside the ignition switch housing. Now this is an entirely different, remote and unrelated portion of the KiPass authentication system; it communicates with the KiPass ECU but is NOT the KiPass ECU. This is the section that rings the inductor that is the RFID portion of KiPass and works with the passive (not containing a battery) fob. This circuit has six re-writable memory slots to validate fobs. What that means is that it can contain valid codes for six fobs at any given time. But the difference is that even if all six slots have been used for previous fobs, there is one fob left with the bike (to allow it to accept more fob recognition programming), then up to five additional, new fobs can be registered with the ignition module at any time.

Now this is where it gets interesting: a passive or RFID fob is just a passive fob. But an active or RF fob is ALSO a passive or RFID fob also. So it is possible to use the RFID portion of a fob without being able to use the RF portion or even program the KiPass ECU to recognize it.

One other thing: the system knows which type of fob authenticated the staring process each time the bike is started and this is important because: if the RF fob has authenticated the system, then it will be polled at several different points of the bike's usage on that starting cycle: when the bike passes 20 KPH, when the bike is shifted into OD or sixth gear and one other time I cannot remember. If the KiPass ECU does not receive an authentication during any one of these periods, the LCD will display "Transponder Error" and if shut down, the bike will not re- start after a (I think) 10 second delay unless it again finds a valid fob w/in range. But, if the RFID portion of the fob or an RFID only fob is used to start  the bike, the system will never look for that fob again during that start cycle (as long as the bike's ignition is kept on) because it is assumed the fob is NOT being held against the ignition housing but rather has been put away by the rider.

When registering fobs, only new RFID fobs need be resgistered to the KiPass ECU. But each and every passive or RFID fob must be re- registered to the circuit in the ignition switch housing. So if a customer brings one active (RF) fob to the dealer when having another fob registered to the bike, then any RFID fobs that have already been programmed into the bike will be lost and no longer work in the RFID mode. If they are RF fobs, they will continue to work as long as the battery is powered but once it dies, the fob will be found to NOT work in the RFID mode. This is why it is important to bring all fobs along when having a new fob registered to a C-14.

The mule shown earlier is both more and less complicated than KiPass at the same time: if you hang a carrot from a stick in front of its nose, it will most likely walk forward. If you use the stick to swat it in its..... "special places", or put spurs into its flanks, it will most likely run forward. The downside is long after you have finished using the mule, put it up for the night and forgotten all about the carrot and.... what you may have swatted with the stick, the mule may still be a bit cranky and bite you without warning. C-14's never exhibit this behavior but mules never need new batteries either. That is why choosing between them is such a tough proposition. Oh yeah, mule exhaust is far less pleasant and more lumpy than C-14 exhaust.

There is video of that seminar I put on? I am flattered, although I have been told more than once I have a face made for radio (blushes with pride).   :-\ :rotflmao:

Brian

Is that a lifetime limit or current in place limit? That is to say can old FOB numbers be cleared out and the number slots (or whatever they are called) be filled with the new FOB codes? If I recall correctly Brian, from your tech presentation at the National, there are two registers? one for the active fob(s) and one for the RFIDs? (Note to COG: video tape COG National presentations and after editing for any mis-speak errors (if any) then sell them in the COG store. $$$  :) )

 I recently lost an active FOB and I ordered a new one as well as an extra passive FOB. The Kawasaki dealer service dept. added the new active FOB and the new passive FOB and all checked out OK (both passive fobs {old and new} worked and the active FOB worked) however, when I removed the battery to check the passive part of the active FOB it didn't work and gave me the "SUBKEY ID ERROR" msg on the display. So now I have to take all my FOBs back and get it redone apparently. I actually asked the service desk guy if both the passive as well as the active part of the main fob were done and he said he'd check. He went back to the service area and returned and said yes. If it hadn't been raining I would have checked it all right there in the parking lot. I'm not super happy about it, but then the place also works on Hondas, Yamaha wave runners, and a bunch of different ATVs so I can't really expect error free performance all the time. I certainly don't get it from me, so why should I expect it from them? Now, if they try to charge me more, well then that's a different matter. I think I'm going to show up with a good attitude and a box of donuts or kalaches for the service department and see how that goes.  ;) fingers crossed.

I certainly hope what you said about registering all the FOBs only applies to the RFID part, because I doubt they recorded the active FOB number anywhere.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline fartymarty

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2014, 03:38:30 am »
Thanks Brian.

There is video of that seminar I put on?

Not that I know of, but I was suggesting that it would be a good idea as long as the presenters were allowed to do a final edit to correct any known mistakes. Extra money for COG or across the pond funding etc.
 I'd buy one.  :)

Offline Ned

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2014, 03:44:53 am »
What????? I just want the damn thing to start. While I appreciate the explanation, I am not sure I can follow it without a flow chart or something. I am glad though that at least one of us knows more than the dealer. You gotta know I don't even know how to move one of the smiley faces down into this part of the screen. I really only use my smart phone for a clock and to make phone calls. If I could, I would insert a smiley face or two here right now but since I only text because I have kids here is as close as I can get :)

Offline Ned

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2014, 03:46:33 am »
How did those smiley faces get in there???

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPASS and extra keys
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2014, 04:00:33 am »
OK, earlier today you were the 'new guy' and we were going easy on you. But now you are just another COGger and someone has to do this.....


Ned? Ned Ryerson??.....(Bing!).  Say Ned, do you have a room here in town?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Brian

How did those smiley faces get in there???
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