Author Topic: KiPass question  (Read 913 times)

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Offline Nickrides

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KiPass question
« on: July 25, 2019, 08:23:51 pm »
Hi Gents
Newbie question #3078

I leave my Keyfob in my tank bag all the time.  24/7
Does this drain the Fob battery?
Is the Fob constantly trying to communicate with the bike?
That KiPass system is really something..

Offline Freddy

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Offline Mad River Marc

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2019, 09:26:23 pm »
Welcome
Short answer is that no the fob does not continuously talk to the bike so leaving it in the tank bag will not drain the battery, the fob only "wakes up" when you press the stove knob and the bike sends a "ping" to see if a properly coded fob is in range.

When running the bike does do periodic pings (There was a list of when,  after a certain gear or RPM IIRC) but it is not a continuous drain.

The longer answer is that leaving the fob in the tank bag IMHO is not a great idea,  its the same as leaving the key in the ign for another bike,  if you walk away and someone with untoward intentions comes by they would be able to start the bike. 
What I do, is leave the main FOB in my pocket, but then I have a spare EMERGENCY fob (the non powered one) hidden somewhere on the bike that only I know where is and only I can get to.

Hope this helps

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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2019, 11:01:49 pm »
Quote
Short answer is that no the fob does not continuously talk to the bike so leaving it in the tank bag will not drain the battery, the fob only "wakes up" when you press the stove knob and the bike sends a "ping" to see if a properly coded fob is in range.


Not quite true.

From this article...

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/kawasaki_kipass.html

"How KIPASS Works
This is how the Kawasaki Concours is started. The central ECU, called the Smart ECU (because it also controls the TPMS), constantly sends out RF waves, even with the keyswitch turned off. When the keyfob is within 5 feet of the Smart ECU, the keyfob "transponds," that is, receives the Smart ECU's signal and returns it with its own unique electronic signature attached. The Smart ECU compares this signature with its six previously stored registrations and if there is a match, the Smart ECU then seeks security confirmation from the other two ECUs, one at a time. Acknowledgement by the keyswitch ECU via the CAN bus permits the keyswitch to be pushed down and then rotated. At the same time, the Smart ECU seeks security confirmation from the FI (engine) ECU via CAN, in order for the fuel injection and ignition systems to be activated."

So, your FOB battery will drain down faster if left with the bike. This is why I bring mine in the house. I had to change my battery after 3 years. If left next to the bike, you will change the battery sooner.

Further discussion:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kipass-article-found-via-facebook/msg612573/?topicseen#msg612573

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Offline BDF

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2019, 11:02:54 am »
That information is not correct. KiPass only sends out an RF signal when the system is 'awoken' via pressing down on the main key. That is why that action is required.

The RF portion of KiPass sends out a signal and looks for a return signal only at four distinct cases:
1) The stove- knob key is pressed and KiPass scans for either five or ten seconds and then shuts off.
2) The bike passes 20 kph in speed.
3) The bike is shifted into sixth gear.
4) I cannot remember :-)

The entire system, both on the bike and all fobs, is inactive the rest of the time, with the single exception of any RF fobs having the ability to receive an RF signal but they are in passive (non- powered) mode.

Brian

Quote
Short answer is that no the fob does not continuously talk to the bike so leaving it in the tank bag will not drain the battery, the fob only "wakes up" when you press the stove knob and the bike sends a "ping" to see if a properly coded fob is in range.


Not quite true.

From this article...

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/kawasaki_kipass.html

"How KIPASS Works
This is how the Kawasaki Concours is started. The central ECU, called the Smart ECU (because it also controls the TPMS), constantly sends out RF waves, even with the keyswitch turned off. When the keyfob is within 5 feet of the Smart ECU, the keyfob "transponds," that is, receives the Smart ECU's signal and returns it with its own unique electronic signature attached. The Smart ECU compares this signature with its six previously stored registrations and if there is a match, the Smart ECU then seeks security confirmation from the other two ECUs, one at a time. Acknowledgement by the keyswitch ECU via the CAN bus permits the keyswitch to be pushed down and then rotated. At the same time, the Smart ECU seeks security confirmation from the FI (engine) ECU via CAN, in order for the fuel injection and ignition systems to be activated."

So, your FOB battery will drain down faster if left with the bike. This is why I bring mine in the house. I had to change my battery after 3 years. If left next to the bike, you will change the battery sooner.

Further discussion:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/kipass-article-found-via-facebook/msg612573/?topicseen#msg612573
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2019, 12:23:08 pm »
Number one is correct. AM radio amplifies the RF for about 5 seconds with two distinct blasts.

So, now I'm not sure. I went out with an AM radio to listen to the RF chatter, if any, before pressing the stove knob.
Didn't hear any.

The only way for me to know for sure is to put an microamp meter on the FOB during my next battery change to look for a change in current.
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2019, 01:25:06 pm »
Just got a reply from Mike Nixon who wrote the article and here is his reply...

"Hi, Harry.  I was once in charge of all training for Kawasaki.  I know what I am talking about, about some things anyway.  Yes, if the fob is within 5 feet of the main ECU, data is constantly being transmitted.  And yes, a fob left that close will run its (not the bike's) battery down.  This is in fact the problem law enforcement is having. "

Mike was very quick with the reply.

I'm still gonna hook up a microamp meter on my next FOB battery change to see what the current draw is.

Harry in Wild and Windy Casper, WY - 2015 "Greendammit"
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Offline BDF

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2019, 03:12:02 pm »
That information is in direct conflict with Kawasaki's own published information, as well as my own personal experience.

Besides that, it is easy enough to check: just measure the current taken from the battery while the bike is 'off' (and has been so for at least 30 seconds as there is a fairly high ~75 milliamps current draw initially but then it drops to ~2 ma) and watch the current climb. Of course it would be even more specific if one were to measure the current flowing into the KiPass ECU, located under the saddle, directly under the rider. And of course your idea of checking the current the fob is using while away from the bike, then in close proximity to the bike, and finally close to the bike when KiPass is engaged (which only happens when the system is manually activated) will show when the fob is transmitting.

There is a lot of miss-information out there about most, if not all, facets of KiPass and how it works. For example, the long standing discussion and / or argument about which way the tire pressure sensors 'must' face to work correctly (it does not matter). The easiest way to get the info on the original TPS senders is to grab the data sheet from Infineon regarding the controller chip that is used in the sensor and read it- all the info is printed quite clearly. And yet both Kawasaki and a lot of Kawasaki dealers often do not know how this works. The system always being active is another very commonly stated mistake.

In fact, if you manually hold the stove knob key down for more than five or ten seconds, the system actually shuts itself down to prevent battery drain. This is why when the activation switch at the bottom of the switch assembly sticks, the system is off and cannot be powered up because that circuit must be opened and then closed again to reactivate it but as the switch is stuck in the ON position, one cannot break the circuit. Many years ago I designed a work- around for that very problem that allows the rider to re-activate KiPass and start the bike when that switch does stick.

If you want to learn more about how the system works, dig into Mitsubishi's MISTY system as that is what Kawasaki is purchasing and actually using as 'KiPass'. Lots of information just in patents on the system.

Brian

Just got a reply from Mike Nixon who wrote the article and here is his reply...

"Hi, Harry.  I was once in charge of all training for Kawasaki.  I know what I am talking about, about some things anyway.  Yes, if the fob is within 5 feet of the main ECU, data is constantly being transmitted.  And yes, a fob left that close will run its (not the bike's) battery down.  This is in fact the problem law enforcement is having. "

Mike was very quick with the reply.

I'm still gonna hook up a microamp meter on my next FOB battery change to see what the current draw is.
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2019, 03:42:03 pm »
Brian, Thanks for your feedback. I will look into this some more as i find it interesting.

I'm not going to open up my FOB until the battery wanes, but will try that test when the time comes.
Getting to the truth is always fun.

There are so many things going on with this bike that is taking me time to understand.   :beerchug: :great:
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Offline Nickrides

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2019, 03:44:51 pm »
Ok
A variety of opinions
I've got to say I'm surprised at the difference of opinion's on this subject
I would have thought at by this point it would be clear as glass
But apparently not...

Offline Bud

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2019, 09:07:58 pm »
All I can tell you is that the one time I started a thread about something Mike Nixon had on his website, well.....it didn't go well.
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Offline TimR

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2019, 09:17:57 pm »
I wear my fob on  lanyard  I picked up at a rally around my neck. If I loose it I'm probably in trouble anyways.  Battery dies? Might be a slight inconvenience but you are not stranded. The Kipass can be activated by removing the key and placing the FOB on the notch on the tripe tree neck.


When sitting on the bike, having the FOB in a pocket probably isn't too far off as it would be in a tank bag. However in my mind a tank bag is not a good location unless you take the FOB with you. So why not just put it in your pocket. (Not a unzipped jacket pocket, just ask no fob Bob) 

Handy thing about the FOB batteries is they are the same size used in my red dot sights.


My 09 is now 10 years old. I know I changed the batteries once maybe twice now. The reason I say batteries is because the 08's and 09's came with two active FOB's. If by chance I loose the FOB on the road, the wife will over night the spare while I sit in the bar. (She won't know about the Bar part)
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2019, 10:38:04 pm »
All I can tell you is that the one time I started a thread about something Mike Nixon had on his website, well.....it didn't go well.

That's funny. He says the same thing.  :)) :)) :))
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Offline Bud

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2019, 09:48:18 am »
 :nananana: ;D
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Offline Nickrides

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2019, 09:15:29 pm »
Ok
 Moving right along
What I read into the KiPass developer notes is that in fact when the Fob is in range it is constantly communicating with the ECU
No problem to take it out of my tankbag, as long as I don't loose the F@%*cking thing.
I've got 4 k miles on my bike now and I've got to say I hope I don't end up in jail with that thing, it is so easy to ride fast, as most of you know.
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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2019, 10:02:46 pm »
I fully agree with BDF's correct assessment on the sequence, and triggering of events.

I also don't wave any flags about what Mike Nixon has written about this bike... he no longer works for Kaw, and hasn't for quite some time..(seems like he dropped out, and then returned, and dropped out again...) his obscure and misleading notes about "police Bikes", and all the bad press that got tossed around, clearly demonstrates some level of insincerity.. I've read his articles, and others he actually wrote, early on, but did NOT link to on his website, that were pretty maligned.
I don't have much faith in his explanation of why the C14 doesn't have cruise control from the factory either... he's full-o-it when he says it's because the C14 has a puny battery.. come on man... Kaw made bikes with an electric windshield, and heated grips, that both those circuits required 35 amps to power.. seriously?  when the bike is "running", that battery makes little difference, it's the charging system that supplies the "juice"... :-[ :-[ :-[

anyway, rant off... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :nananana: :rotflmao:

Now, back to the sequence... the FOB doesn't emit anything, until it gets "pinged"..   and 10 seconds after the bike is shut off, using the main key, requires the same event sequence, before being started...

It all starts at Point #1 in the diagram, when the main key is pushed down... this begins authentication by the ECU sending out a signal, then the FOB returns a different signal, and all the paths up to point #7 where the key can actually be turned, and starter engaged.

With the bike running, and actually being ridden, when a speed of 20kmh is reached, the FOB gets another "ping", and has to answer back, and in stop and go traffic, this can occur frequently,   but if you come up to speed, and continue on, the last "ping" would have been at the point 20kmh was reached, and you could actually travel a good distance, or until you stop again, before it gets another "ping".

I actually tested this once, while riding with a pal, and somewhere around 30mph, on a road we were going to continue on, I handed him my FOB while we were riding... we traveled for over a half hour, and I never got a "transponder alert" until we made a stop; and once I pulled away from the stop, I got the alert... we rode on, and he handed me the FOB back again while riding, I put it in my pocket, after waving it around the steering lock, and the warning did NOT go away until we made a second stop... and then when I pulled away, it got the "ping", and shut the warning off... so there you have it, believe it or dismiss it, it is not "always" sending a signal.. especially when you have had the bike shut off, and walked away from the bike.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 10:40:51 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2019, 04:18:52 am »
I would have to agree with all the above.

When I listen in on the FOB/ECU communication with my AM radio, the radio screams, loudly when you hit the stove knob.
Its dead silent any other time.
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Offline BDF

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2019, 10:24:30 am »
Just to finish the thought of when the fob is polled.... I happened to trip over the fourth case so I figured I would throw it in here behind this applicable post:

1) When the stove knob is pressed down (bike not running).
2) When passing 20 kph in speed.
3) When the bike is shifted into sixth gear.
4) When the bike is shut off. Now this last one seems pretty nonsensical at first but after thinking about it for a few minutes, I think it is a valid thing to do. Let's say you ride a C-14 on the highway for a long time; without shifting or going slow, the fob is never checked by the bike. Decelerating and downshifting will not trigger a poll either. But when you shut the bike off it will flash and error and make you aware that you have a problem, right then and there. If it did not do that, you may go get something to eat and crash in a motel for the night only to find you cannot start the bike in the morning, then going frantic trying to retrace your steps since getting off the bike in the assumption it fell out of a pocket or similar. So the system warning you when stopping can actually be of some use I think. Anyway, those are the four cases when the bike polls the fob. Pressing the stove knob key down when the bike is running may also poll the fob but IMO it is pretty irrelevant as not many of us ride down the road pressing the stove knob key down.... over and over again.  :-[ ;D

Brian


<snip>

I actually tested this once, while riding with a pal, and somewhere around 30mph, on a road we were going to continue on, I handed him my FOB while we were riding... we traveled for over a half hour, and I never got a "transponder alert" until we made a stop; and once I pulled away from the stop, I got the alert... we rode on, and he handed me the FOB back again while riding, I put it in my pocket, after waving it around the steering lock, and the warning did NOT go away until we made a second stop... and then when I pulled away, it got the "ping", and shut the warning off... so there you have it, believe it or dismiss it, it is not "always" sending a signal.. especially when you have had the bike shut off, and walked away from the bike.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 07:54:03 pm by BDF »
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Offline freebird6

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2019, 10:54:57 am »
Not to throw a hitch into things but all this reading has left me with a question.

If I use the passive RFID to start the bike and begin down the road (never did that ) how does the ECU react?

Offline BDF

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2019, 11:12:15 am »
I assume you mean will it show any type of 'no fob' error? No- the system knows it was started with the RFID portion of KiPass and therefore will not poll any fob, ever, after it is started that way. The system designers knew that one would hold a fob against the ign. switch housing and then remove it and place it somewhere for the ride and so set the system up for KiPass to work in a reasonable (read: no polling for a fob) way when used in this mode. Only when used in the RF (fob with battery at some distance) will the system ever poll for a valid fob after the bike is started.

Besides the obvious annoyance of flashing a warning, it may also become dangerous should a rider actually try to hold a fob against the ign sw. housing while riding- I am not saying it cannot be done but I am saying it is a bad idea and would leave the manufacturer open to a huge liability (and in this case, I believe rightfully so).

Brian

Not to throw a hitch into things but all this reading has left me with a question.

If I use the passive RFID to start the bike and begin down the road (never did that ) how does the ECU react?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 07:52:54 pm by BDF »
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Offline TimR

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2019, 07:12:50 pm »
Post #17, Item #4.
Quote
When the bike is shut off.


I actually witnessed this on he 09 Bun Cooler. A rider lost his FOB. At the top of LO LO pass went to shut off his bike like everyone else. Except his lights started flashing and the gauges were swinging. Battery panel removed and ground disconnected. I don't know if he read the dash or not.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 08:54:38 pm by TimR, Reason: 10 year old memory came back. »
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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2019, 07:42:47 pm »
Post #17, Item #4.
Quote
When the bike is shut off.


I actually witnessed this on he 09 Bun Cooler. A rider lost his FOB. At the top of LO LO pass went to shut off his bike like everyone else. Except his lights started flashing and the gauges were swinging. I don't know if he read the dash or not. Battery panel was removed and ground disconnected.

yes, that "final" polling pings, and if no fob is present, it extends the amount of time to 10 seconds, while the display is showing "transponder missing", to allow an immediate restart..... I didn't notice if it did this when using the passive rf chip only, as I turn my bike off at the Key always, never have used the "kill switch"... and I did start and ride the bike (about 1 mile) to pick up FOB Batteries at the corner store 2 weeks ago..didn't see the "error" on either way, to or from the store at shutdown.. so, I can't tell ya what happens if you shut it off with the kill switch, vs the Stove Knob.. I would assume it would do a "ping", even tho it knew the bike was originally started using the RFID chip only, I think the whole "power down/off" sequence differs from the "power up",   next time I go out, I'll try to remember to "test this" both ways.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 08:53:01 pm by TimR »

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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2019, 07:44:16 pm »
Post #17, Item #4.
Quote
When the bike is shut off.


I actually witnessed this on he 09 Bun Cooler. A rider lost his FOB. At the top of LO LO pass went to shut off his bike like everyone else. Except his lights started flashing and the gauges were swinging. Hit the kill switch and that was that. I don't know if he read the dash or not.

On page 108, in my ZG1400EF owner's manual...
I believe this is the last ECU attempt to communicate with the evil FOB.

After turning off the bike, "NO TRANSPONDER" is displayed indicating the FOB is not nearby.  :(

I believe you have a 10 second window to come to reality, thinking, "Where is my FOB?", and remembering with horror, you left it in your other jacket. Having presense of mind, you start it back up before (in that 10 seconds) the ECU shuts down, allowing you the escape to get back home and not having to FEDEX the FOB to your location.

Am I right?
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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2019, 07:57:34 pm »
 :)) :)) :)) :))

read what is right above your question... in my post.

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Offline BDF

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Re: KiPass question
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2019, 08:12:37 pm »
I <believe> the 10 second window to re-start the bike w/out a valid fob is built in for general safety as well as DOT requirements; it is there in the event the bike stalls or is shut off in a dangerous situation (think of sitting on railroad tracks....) and it MUST be re-started so it can be moved for safety, not convenience. The same thing goes with the rule that KiPass, or any proximity authentication system, can only prevent a bike from being started initially (after some duration of not running) but under no circumstances can it cause the vehicle to be rendered immobile, again for safety reasons. Imagine being in fast moving, aggressive highway traffic, in the far- left lane, losing the fob and having KiPass (or any other authentication system) shutting off the bike? Fantastically dangerous and a huge liability for any mfg. that would do such a thing.

I <believe> the warning flashed on the LCD is more of a courtesy / helpful hint rather than any kind of safety issue. But of course it does allow you to start the bike right away, as you said, in case you have stopped out in the boonies and can / should move to a better place to get stuck (seriously).

Another thought on this subject: one issue that has come up repeatedly in the past is that Kawasaki should have set the system up to 1) set the position of when a fob goes out- of- range (falls out of your pocket while riding, etc.) and give an immediate warning that this has happened. And that could be done but it goes all the way back to how the system polls for a fob; to note when a fob is no longer present, the polling would have to be continuous and that would kill the fob battery far too quickly for any practical use. Unfortunately in the real world, battery life is a huge problem in remote devices, especially those that are not readily serviceable or rechargeable; I do not think anyone would like a vehicle fob that required charging every three days, for example. So things like locating the point where a fob is lost are quite easy to do but very difficult to maintain given the limitations of such a small battery.

Brian


On page 108, in my ZG1400EF owner's manual...
I believe this is the last ECU attempt to communicate with the evil FOB.

After turning off the bike, "NO TRANSPONDER" is displayed indicating the FOB is not nearby.  :(

I believe you have a 10 second window to come to reality, thinking, "Where is my FOB?", and remembering with horror, you left it in your other jacket. Having presense of mind, you start it back up before (in that 10 seconds) the ECU shuts down, allowing you the escape to get back home and not having to FEDEX the FOB to your location.

Am I right?
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