Author Topic: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving  (Read 831 times)

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Offline Eric

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KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« on: July 23, 2019, 01:29:44 pm »
All last year I was able to leave my fob in the glove box and never got the No Transponder warning.  I recently had my dealer program the bike to recognize a new passive fob, and on the way home the warning popped up.  I figured the fob battery was getting weak so I changed it, but I still get the warning.  The other strange thing is that the bike will start and is happy until I'm several miles down the road.  Then, the only way I can get rid of the warning is to pull the fob out of the glove box and put it in my pants pocket.  I really prefer to leave the fob on the bike unless I'm somewhere it's not secure, which isn't very often.
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2012 CBR1000 - mostly my son's bike, but a fun ride!
1985 V65 Sabre - died in collision with a trailer
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Offline kv5e

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 01:41:37 pm »
All last year I was able to leave my fob in the glove box and never got the No Transponder warning.  I recently had my dealer program the bike to recognize a new passive fob, and on the way home the warning popped up.  I figured the fob battery was getting weak so I changed it, but I still get the warning.  The other strange thing is that the bike will start and is happy until I'm several miles down the road.  Then, the only way I can get rid of the warning is to pull the fob out of the glove box and put it in my pants pocket.  I really prefer to leave the fob on the bike unless I'm somewhere it's not secure, which isn't very often.

One possibility is the heat rise in the fairing pocket on warmer days is skewing the carrier frequency on the Misty handshake with the ECU. If this did not happen on colder days and not in your pocket then it could be one explanation, but not the only possible explanation.

If the ECU receiver is tuned a little off and the local oscillator on the FOB is drifting due to heat the other way until it is out of pass band for decoding the handshake Hash, then there's your answer.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 02:21:43 pm »
The FSM says not to put the FOB in the glove box BTW.

It should be on a lanyard and in your pocket with it zipped so you don't loose it.

Its probably just some electronic interference that causing this, keep it in a pocket.

What if you forgot to get the FOB and left the bike for lunch, someone could come up and ride away with your bike. Unlikely, but completely possible.

PS: I have had this happen before and now keep it in my right pants pocket, it did not like my chest jacket pocket.
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Offline BDF

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2019, 03:09:21 pm »
If you have changed anything electric or electronic on the bike, especially in the front (such as headlights), it is quite likely interfering with the RF signal from the transponder. We have seen this problem repeatedly after installing HID headlights on a C-14- after the install, the fob no longer works in the place(s) it used to work.

Even if the bike is 100% stock, the newer, second- gen. C-14's (2010 and newer) with the glove box on the left side of the bike are likely to have trouble because the bike is trying to receive an RF signal through the steel fuel tank, actually two layers of the tank. On the original C-14's with the glove box in the middle it was much less of a problem.

Placing the fob in the right side pants pocket gives it a pretty clear path to communicate with the main KiPass unit and receiver, located just under the driver's saddle.

In the end, if the bike will start with the fob in the glove box and that is where you want to keep it, you can certainly leave it that way although there is no way that I know of to turn off the loss of signal warning that will come afterward.

If you really want to 'effectively' disable (but not really, just a work- around) KiPass, you can take the small RFID unit out of the fob and glue it to the front of the ignition switch assembly. Once that is done, the RFID portion of KiPass will sense the encoded unit every single time the bike is powered up. Of course you should then take the key out of the bike when you leave it, and probably put something over the 'key hole' because it is not weatherproof w/out the stove- knob key in place. One gentleman did this quite a few years ago and seemed happy with the result.

In the end, the bike has KiPass and it is not reasonably, if not entirely, removable so you will have to find some way to live with the system or trade the bike off for something else.

Brian

All last year I was able to leave my fob in the glove box and never got the No Transponder warning.  I recently had my dealer program the bike to recognize a new passive fob, and on the way home the warning popped up.  I figured the fob battery was getting weak so I changed it, but I still get the warning.  The other strange thing is that the bike will start and is happy until I'm several miles down the road.  Then, the only way I can get rid of the warning is to pull the fob out of the glove box and put it in my pants pocket.  I really prefer to leave the fob on the bike unless I'm somewhere it's not secure, which isn't very often.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 04:00:24 pm »
My manual says not to store the FOB near the bike as it will draw down the power, draining the FOB battery.
The FOB and bike communicate with each other on a continuing basis.

Even if you store the FOB in your house, like I do, it is recommended to keep the FOB away from other electronic equipment to preserve battery life. To make sure, you can go the extra step of wrapping it in tin foil to block any stray RF.

With this in mind, I would first try replacing the FOB battery again, as it is possible you purchased a stale battery. If that doesn't fix it, then search for another solution.
Harry in Wild and Windy Casper, WY - 2015 "Greendammit"
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Offline Eric

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2019, 04:51:35 pm »
If you have changed anything electric or electronic on the bike, especially in the front (such as headlights), it is quite likely interfering with the RF signal from the transponder. We have seen this problem repeatedly after installing HID headlights on a C-14- after the install, the fob no longer works in the place(s) it used to work.

Even if the bike is 100% stock, the newer, second- gen. C-14's (2010 and newer) with the glove box on the left side of the bike are likely to have trouble because the bike is trying to receive an RF signal through the steel fuel tank, actually two layers of the tank. On the original C-14's with the glove box in the middle it was much less of a problem.

Placing the fob in the right side pants pocket gives it a pretty clear path to communicate with the main KiPass unit and receiver, located just under the driver's saddle.

In the end, if the bike will start with the fob in the glove box and that is where you want to keep it, you can certainly leave it that way although there is no way that I know of to turn off the loss of signal warning that will come afterward.

If you really want to 'effectively' disable (but not really, just a work- around) KiPass, you can take the small RFID unit out of the fob and glue it to the front of the ignition switch assembly. Once that is done, the RFID portion of KiPass will sense the encoded unit every single time the bike is powered up. Of course you should then take the key out of the bike when you leave it, and probably put something over the 'key hole' because it is not weatherproof w/out the stove- knob key in place. One gentleman did this quite a few years ago and seemed happy with the result.

In the end, the bike has KiPass and it is not reasonably, if not entirely, removable so you will have to find some way to live with the system or trade the bike off for something else.

Brian

I think you nailed it.  I installed LED headlights between the time it last worked and now doesn't work.  I'm not sure I'm quite ready to glue the chip to the switch housing, but it's an interesting idea.  I may find a way to secure it inside one of my saddlebags, or maybe create a pouch somewhere near the handlebars / instruments.
2012 Concours - My new baby!
2012 CBR1000 - mostly my son's bike, but a fun ride!
1985 V65 Sabre - died in collision with a trailer
1983 CB650 - died in a head on with a 77 thunderbird
1981 KL250 - ridden to death

Offline kv5e

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 05:41:18 pm »
LED headlights . . . . good catch , that would generate enough noise to desense the ECU receiver if the LED kit generates harmonics up to the 300 MHz band.

Some LED kits are very noisy in the RF, if you run HF radio you stay away from aftermarket LED lights in cages.
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Offline BDF

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 07:54:48 pm »
Yeah, the switching power supplies used to power LED's can make a lot of electrical noise, especially if they are the very finest, cheapest and fastest designed versions often used for consumer products today unfortunately. And between finest, cheapest and fastest, the emphasis is always on cheapest, with cheapest and fastest being the second choice. :-)

Because the headlights, and LED driver circuits, are not on when you start the bike, the RF portion of KiPass works fine. But once it is running and the headlights are on, the electrical noise gets in the way of the KiPass signal. The bike 'looks for' a valid fob three timed during all rides, the first time is when the bike passes 20 kph in speed, then again when it is shifted into sixth, and the third time I cannot remember.  ;D This only applies if you use the RF portion of KiPass to start the bike; if you use the RFID method, holding a fob without a battery against the ign. switch. housing, the system never again checks for a valid fob because the designers figured you would have to remove the fob and put is someplace after starting the bike. So you could start the bike with the credit card fob and then put that fob wherever you like, including the glove box, and you will not see that KiPass warning.

Gluing the RFID identifier onto the ign. housing does NOT by-pass KiPass, it just allows the system to always sense a valid fob. There is no way to remove / disable KiPass that I am aware of or can think of, at least w/in a reasonable amount of time and effort. Of course an aftermarket ECU could be purchased, installed and coded to run the bike instead of using the OEM ECU but that is a lot of time, effort and expense just to toss KiPass. IMO it would be easier to trade the bike for something else w/o KiPass in the first place.

Personally, I just leave an active, RF fob in the right / front pocket of the pants I am wearing. It works for me 'cause I almost always wear pants when riding motorcycles and all my pants have pockets.  :rotflmao:

Brian


I think you nailed it.  I installed LED headlights between the time it last worked and now doesn't work.  I'm not sure I'm quite ready to glue the chip to the switch housing, but it's an interesting idea.  I may find a way to secure it inside one of my saddlebags, or maybe create a pouch somewhere near the handlebars / instruments.
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline gpd323

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 08:45:07 pm »
Before I went to LED's in the headlights and had HID's my Escort 9500IX would get a Laser "hit" all the time. Turned out moving the HID ballasts down lower in the fairings solved this issue.

This stopped when I went and installed LED's. So RF interference is definitely a possibility.

So the FOB is always in my right hand pants pocket
Greg Downing
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Washington State

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Offline gilbysan

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2019, 10:40:29 pm »
Very interesting subject!  I get the "No FOB" warning all the time for several seconds.  The Fob rests in my left jacket pocket and it I touch it or turn it over in the pocket while riding it goes away.  I did not think that maybe the ballasts and other HID stuff might be interfering with the signals, but it makes sense.  It is worse when I am riding with a leather jacket vs. textile.  I am left handed so want the FOB on the left side and keep my helmet lock and top box keys in the right pocket. 

I think I will try switching sides for a bit to see what happens.
Thanks Guys!
Gilbysan
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2019, 12:06:23 am »
News to me on headlight RF. Interesting problem.

Sounds like the headlight stuff needs better shielding from RF leakage.
Who'd a thought?

I still have stock lighting and will leave it that way for now.
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Offline gilbysan

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2019, 03:34:26 am »
Got it Harry. For me, the benefit of HIDs  outweighs the problem with the FOB. Having said that, it is interesting the impact RF has on the many devices we use nowadays.

It must be hard for the product people to cover all past, present and future contingencies...

Gilbysan
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Offline Harry Martin

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2019, 04:37:58 am »
With an AM radio set at the low end of the band, you can hear the FOB and ECU chirping at each other.
I wonder if you can use the same radio to zero in on the RF leakage? If so, maybe find a way to shield it.
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Offline Eric

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2019, 10:37:15 am »
With an AM radio set at the low end of the band, you can hear the FOB and ECU chirping at each other.
I wonder if you can use the same radio to zero in on the RF leakage? If so, maybe find a way to shield it.

Now I'm curious!  I'm going to go home tonight and break out my old radio to look for "leaks"!
2012 Concours - My new baby!
2012 CBR1000 - mostly my son's bike, but a fun ride!
1985 V65 Sabre - died in collision with a trailer
1983 CB650 - died in a head on with a 77 thunderbird
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Offline kv5e

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Offline gilbysan

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 01:17:19 pm »
Update,
I have been carrying my FOB in the right hand pocket of my riding jacket for over a week now and have not had even one "FOB Missing" error.  So, it would appear that something like the HID ballasts, or another one of the many electronic farkles (Halocam, SENA headset, Android, iPod, LEDs) I have installed is having an impact on the comm between the FOB and KIPASS device up front, but only when the FOB is situated on the left side.
Mystery solved now to determine the culprit.
Cheers!
Gilbysan


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Offline gpd323

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 02:56:01 pm »
^^^^^^^^^

Me? I would just move on now that its working fine in another pocket.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2019, 12:45:25 am »
All last year I was able to leave my fob in the glove box and never got the No Transponder warning.  I recently had my dealer program the bike to recognize a new passive fob, and on the way home the warning popped up.  I figured the fob battery was getting weak so I changed it, but I still get the warning.  The other strange thing is that the bike will start and is happy until I'm several miles down the road.  Then, the only way I can get rid of the warning is to pull the fob out of the glove box and put it in my pants pocket.  I really prefer to leave the fob on the bike unless I'm somewhere it's not secure, which isn't very often.

Not sure if anyone realizes this, but when "adding" a new FOB, either an active or passive (rf chip only) one, ALL of the pre programmed FOB's need to be present, and sitting on the bike, as during the programming stage, at the end, there is a step that "verifies" them all as currently programmed, before going out of that program mode on the KDS3.. exiting the program, without that last step, may render an existing programmed "active/transponder FOB", as not being seen any more. Also, the passive immobilizer chips must also be input, and verified, prior to closing the program out.. or they will not be seen when called upon, to function.  I can't "post' this stuff from the book, as it's copywrite protected, but rest assured, I have read this over, a bazillion times now, and the "steps" are in the KDS book...

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Offline Eric

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2019, 11:00:01 am »
All last year I was able to leave my fob in the glove box and never got the No Transponder warning.  I recently had my dealer program the bike to recognize a new passive fob, and on the way home the warning popped up.  I figured the fob battery was getting weak so I changed it, but I still get the warning.  The other strange thing is that the bike will start and is happy until I'm several miles down the road.  Then, the only way I can get rid of the warning is to pull the fob out of the glove box and put it in my pants pocket.  I really prefer to leave the fob on the bike unless I'm somewhere it's not secure, which isn't very often.

Not sure if anyone realizes this, but when "adding" a new FOB, either an active or passive (rf chip only) one, ALL of the pre programmed FOB's need to be present, and sitting on the bike, as during the programming stage, at the end, there is a step that "verifies" them all as currently programmed, before going out of that program mode on the KDS3.. exiting the program, without that last step, may render an existing programmed "active/transponder FOB", as not being seen any more. Also, the passive immobilizer chips must also be input, and verified, prior to closing the program out.. or they will not be seen when called upon, to function.  I can't "post' this stuff from the book, as it's copywrite protected, but rest assured, I have read this over, a bazillion times now, and the "steps" are in the KDS book...

Since I've resigned myself to having the huge FOB in my pocket I haven't gotten the warning.  When I picked the bike up from the dealer I did place the active FOB out of range and verify I could start the bike with the new passive FOB held against the key barrel.  But, I didn't pull the battery out of the active FOB to make sure that works.  I can see how this step could easily be skipped by the dealer, so I guess I'll pry the FOB apart again tonight to try that out!  It did take the dealer 3 days to figure out how to do the programming...
2012 Concours - My new baby!
2012 CBR1000 - mostly my son's bike, but a fun ride!
1985 V65 Sabre - died in collision with a trailer
1983 CB650 - died in a head on with a 77 thunderbird
1981 KL250 - ridden to death

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: KIPASS shows "No Transponder" after bike is moving
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 05:58:29 pm »

Since I've resigned myself to having the huge FOB in my pocket I haven't gotten the warning.  When I picked the bike up from the dealer I did place the active FOB out of range and verify I could start the bike with the new passive FOB held against the key barrel.  But, I didn't pull the battery out of the active FOB to make sure that works.  I can see how this step could easily be skipped by the dealer, so I guess I'll pry the FOB apart again tonight to try that out!  It did take the dealer 3 days to figure out how to do the programming...

that statement says a whole lot, like I noted, if they don't know exactly how to follow the steps, missing the important stuff would not be noticed..

just so you know, also, if you have passive's that didn't have the immobilizer chip placed against the ignition switch, during the programming sequence, be careful when they do "add them", when they run the program, again, all the active FOBS need to be "present", like sitting near the kipass ECU when the seat is removed, then they bring up the program, and each passive one gets "placed" on the "node" to read it's code and it gets loaded in.

If you want to "check" your passive chip in the "active FOB", simply pop the cover off... this disconnects the battery from the circuit board, which has a pair of contacts that touch the battery side of the FOB...so you don't have to "remove the battery physically", just separate the halves of the FOB;  the small chip that does the passive RF is located at the end of the PCB, in a little pocket, it's not attached to the board, just sits in a little "well" there.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...