Author Topic: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather  (Read 440 times)

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Offline sparkydany

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Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« on: April 09, 2018, 03:38:30 pm »
Hello all from north of the border,

Been following this site for the last 3 years but first time i'm posting

My Bike; Concours 14, 2014, 15 000 miles, fully stock except for handle bar risers. Great machine, first bike a keep for more than 2 years..lol..

Here's the 2 issues i'm seeking help for

Issue No.1; after starting the engine, RPM goes up normally to 1600 RPM for 20 -30 secs but then falls quickly to 1000 RPMs. Never stalled. Twisting the throttle neither turning the handle bars help. Does this in cold or hot weather. Idle RPM return to normal (1200) after 10 - 20 mins of normal riding.  :-\

Coolant level OK. Thermostat replaced, still acting. Played with the idle knob near the LH driver peg but raising the idle at that point will just add an offset to the idle speed later so back to square one...

Engine temp indication bars on the cluster are mostly behaving OK except that the first bar (with C) seems to pop out a bit too fast after initial start.. even in 32 F range weather. Other than that, all looks fine. The fan kicks in & out in the fourth bar range. Never had an overheat condition. No noticeable power loss at any RPM.

Issue No.2; engine pinging when riding in town during hot weather (80F). Acting above 2500 RPMs and up to 5000 RPMs until i can’t hear it. Re-torqued the header’s nuts. Still pinging as much... The famous ‘’paper clip in a thin can’’ sound...Related to issue No. 1 ? Wrong fuel / air mixture leading to engine knocking ??

For the low idle issue after start, i suspect the engine getting out of the fast idle (open loop mode) too quickly. Bad coolant temp sensor or its wiring ?. ECU seeing engine temp hotter than it is ?? I’ve back pinned the ECU’s connector and the coolant temp sensor voltage feedback is moving as the engine temp increase but without the KDS tool with engineering values, it doesn’t mean much to me.

I’ll try to readjust the throttle cables with the procedure i’ve seen here couple weeks ago and see if there’s any effect. Next step will be to pay a visit at the dealer for a KDS session.

LoL..Am i chasing non-issues here  ?

Any feedback, ideas and even critics on those 2 issues are more than welcome. I need some help...

Thank you all for your time :beerchug:

Offline jwh20

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 05:31:27 pm »
My take:

1) What you're describing is normal although I'm not sure of the actual RPM figures.  When I start my bike the initial RPM is a bit higher than normal idle as the ECU is trying to get the catalyst warmed up quickly to minimize emissions.  After it's satisfied that it's been long enough it drops the idle down to "normal" which is controlled by the idle adjustment screw on the LH side down near the shifter.  1000 RPM is about right.

2) My first suspect here is gasoline with too low an Octane rating.  Note that the bike calls for 91 Octane.  Are you using this?  You might try another brand as I found that some gasoline that says it's 91 Octane doesn't behave like it.
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Offline sparkydany

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 07:28:02 pm »
Thank you jwh20 for your reply. Much appreciated.  :great:

Yes, i am using Oct 91 fuel every time. I've also changed a few times the fuel brand without much luck... even tried some fuel additive to prevent the knocking issue in hot weather but still have both issues.

What's bugging me is that if i don't pay attention when leaving with the bike, with idle at 1000 RPM, it's easy to stall it.... and potentially drop it if not going in straight line..... Also, dunno why the idle speed is getting back to normal after 10 mins of use. So if i adjust it when out of fast idle with the idle screw, the idle will be too high later once the engine is warmed.. This is what i got last time i adjusted it.  :'(


Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 07:59:47 pm »
Engine temps and gauge readings sound perfectly normal, I don't believe there is any issue there, so you can safely stop chasing coolant and temp issues.
Not knowing where you live, ride, or buy fuel, I can only comment that some areas have some pretty poor fuel, even tho its 91 octane, it may be contaminated... or a higher concentration of ethanol than marked.. which will effect mix, and cause pinging. Not knowing how long you let fuel sit in bike is another possibility, as it deteriorates rapidly. Having 15k tells me that it sits for periods of unuse, with a partial tank, which leeds to moisture condensation, and if the fuel already had some water in it, doubles the situation.
Riding the bike for a long distance to run that fuel out, and refilling with quality fuel from another source can help that.
Finally, at 15k, you are close to that magic time to inspect valve clearances, and this may tell you even more, as the ping may be related to this, along with the probability you need a new airfilter.. which will help for sure...
Other than some vacume leaks somewhere in the throttle system, which could also be suspect, I think the bike needs some long hard rides, to clean it out. Don't mix multiple types of "gas treatment" products attempting to have this help, especially if you pour it in, ride for a half hour, and put the bike away for weeks.. it won't work, you need to burn that fuel up, before refilling again.

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Offline jwh20

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 08:02:22 pm »
Thank you jwh20 for your reply. Much appreciated.  :great:

Yes, i am using Oct 91 fuel every time. I've also changed a few times the fuel brand without much luck... even tried some fuel additive to prevent the knocking issue in hot weather but still have both issues.

What's bugging me is that if i don't pay attention when leaving with the bike, with idle at 1000 RPM, it's easy to stall it.... and potentially drop it if not going in straight line..... Also, dunno why the idle speed is getting back to normal after 10 mins of use. So if i adjust it when out of fast idle with the idle screw, the idle will be too high later once the engine is warmed.. This is what i got last time i adjusted it.  :'(

Well another possibility that comes to mind, and both issues might be caused by it, would be an air leak in the intake.  I'd check for the simple stuff first like a disconnected, cracked, or cut vacuum line especially on the engine side of the throttle bodies.  The boots between the TBs and the engine should also be checked.  Be sure your air filter is installed properly and clean.  A clogged one can cause all manner of issues.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 11:57:27 pm »
The secondary throttle shaft & ECU controls idle speed in the warm-up phase you describe Dan.  My 09 behaves the same but it doesn't bother me so much.  Perhaps SISF has the adjustment procedure at hand.  I can't find it in the FSM.   :beerchug:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 12:44:00 am »
vacuum leak is coming to mind, particularly with the pinging. MOB is of course on another potentially correct track. Steve

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Offline Freddy

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 12:57:47 am »
Steve, is there an adjustment procedure to the left side of the secondary shaft?  If so, what is it? 
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Offline sparkydany

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2018, 02:55:20 pm »
Thank you all for the feedback. Much Appreciated

So the low idle RPM i've got once out of the fast idle seems to be a normal behavior. I'll stop spending time on this.

Otherwise, all good suggestions. I'll verify those in the coming weeks

 - Vaccum leak
 - boots between the TBs and the engine
 - Air filter - installed properly and clean (i'll replace it while being there)
 - Trying fuel from another source (Oct 91)
 - inspect valve clearances (i just bought the DVD set)

MOB, you're correct. Up north here in Montreal (Canada), the bike is getting in the shed early December for winter and getting back on the road early April. So a good 4 months of inactivity... That explain the low mileage. For winter storage, I always top off the tank with top grade fuel (..advertised as ''no ethanol'') and also adding additive to prevent water build up in the fuel over the winter. It make sense, the winter storage and the additive to prevent water in the fuel are possibly playing a big role in my issues.

Thank you again and if others want to jump in, feel free to post your suggestions. Last thing i want to do is chasing non-issues and paying a visit to the dealer...

Thanks  :great:

Offline smithr1

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2018, 03:53:13 pm »
Most of the water removing fluids will up your ethanol content and lower your octane.  If adding them I would up the octane for that tank.... if it is pinging from low octane.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 04:12:22 pm »
Steve, is there an adjustment procedure to the left side of the secondary shaft?  If so, what is it?

no adjustment for the secondary shafts, it's controlled by a motor between cyls 2/3. there is a piece of linkage on the L side, but it's factory set, it is designed to set the throttle position for startup based on the shutdown procedure from the secondary motor. Steve
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Offline Sailor Rich

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 04:13:14 pm »
It would not be the first time low octane fuel is being sold in the high test pump. Even diesel from time to time gets there.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 09:30:44 pm »
Most of the water removing fluids will up your ethanol content and lower your octane.  If adding them I would up the octane for that tank.... if it is pinging from low octane.

NOTHING removes water, first off... if its in there, its in there...  anything you can pour in, will sit there, along with the water... untill it is either emptired, or burned thru combustion...

That said, niether of the 2 top products for getting the fuel and water to bind, so it CAN be burned, contain ethanol...
My constant use product for this problem is IsoHeet... it is 99% Isopropanol,  its not isopropal alcohol like you by for cuts and scrapes, its chemically high content causes the water in the system to "bind" in a form of isomer blending, capturing and breaking the molecular bond for a period of time, allowing it to be consumed during the introduction thru the system for combustion...and out the exhaust..
It does not "remove" the water, just makes it bound up to be burned... letting it sit in a tank, for a month, does nothing, and seperation will re occur...
The second product, Heet, in the Yellow bottle, is 99% Methanol, again, it does assist in binding the water, to be carried thru the combustion process, but it is slightly less efficient at that than the IsoHeet product, and its main use is primarily to prevent fuel, in the lines, from freezing during sub zero temperatures, again, it does not remove the water, and still the fuel/water mix must be consumed, or drained.

Any other mystery chemicals, poured in, may have a high ethanol concentration, which does in fact attract moisture, only to be re released at some point when it degrades thru evaporation, and thus exascerbates the problems.

It pays to know what is in these products, and knowing which alcohols do what... :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:

Best bet is to remove a tank, dump it, flush it with fresh clean fuel from a new gas can, dump again, and fill to the brim with clean reliable fuel...
Annnnnnnd... ride it as often and as far as possible. :motonoises: :motonoises: :great: :beerchug:

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Offline smithr1

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 03:31:35 pm »
As usual your facts are many and more correct than mine but truth is if there is water or product to remove water or both in your tank your octane rating will drop based on how much is in there.  Nols and water just don't burn as hot as gas.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Low idle speed after start & engine pinging in hot weather
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 06:38:26 pm »
As usual your facts are many and more correct than mine but truth is if there is water or product to remove water or both in your tank your octane rating will drop based on how much is in there.  Nols and water just don't burn as hot as gas.

I agree about them not burning hotter, but is that bad?  Both Methanol, and Isopropanol, concentrates, have a higher octane rating (114 and 105 respectively) than pump gas...  and both produce a noticable horsepower potential... oxygenated fuels get their properties from these chemicals as a side benefit.. cooler operating temps and horsepower... the cost is that it takes MORE alcohol, per mile to run on it than petroleum fuel., making it undesirable.. also the oxygen released during combustion, comes from the breakdown and does result in water vapor.. further complicating the equation,
Ethanol on the other and, is a bitter pill to swallow, when we are forced by agencies to accept its dispersion in our everyday fuels..

I wouldn't worry about the octane dropping from adding either of the good "Nol's", as getting the water(which was the issue) out is the problem.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel

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