Author Topic: Mechanical question=Clutch issues  (Read 930 times)

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Offline gpd323

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Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« on: July 09, 2019, 06:08:47 pm »
Its a 2013 with 48K miles. Oil is M1 with 3K miles on it. No recent service to point to about this issue. Clutch was bled less than 6 months ago. Took it on a 2700 mile trip in May no issues. OEM levers. Clutch does not slip. Clutch is OEM. No aftermarket parts on the driveline or trans. So its as stock as from the factory.

NOTE: No leaks, the clutch fluid reservoir is not dropping.

Here is whats happening.

Today was my last day on a trip. At first this was noticed only on downshifting, but now is felt up/down.

My clutch lever moves on its own when shifting. When I rev match and pull the lever in and grab a lower gear to shift down,  I release the lever and it moves to the out position, but then moves in towards the grip and then pops back out as the clutch engages, not a whole lot but its easy to feel. If I downshift but don't rev match and let the clutch out slowly it does not do this letting the slipper action do its thing. If I don't rev match and grab a lower gear and quickly release the lever it does do this.

Here is another sensation that may help in finding the cause.

I am in gear steady throttle, I pull the clutch lever in just slightly to take up the free play, then I drop/chop the throttle and the lever moves back and then forward every time.

thanks
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 06:13:00 pm by gpd323 »
Greg Downing
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Offline Bud

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 06:51:26 pm »
Seems like most clutch problems are due to a corroded slave cylinder or broken star springs in the clutch.  IIRC there haven't been many star spring problems with the 14, but I believe there has been some.  I'm sure Rich will comment on this before the day is done.  Riiiiiiiiiiicccccccccchhhhhhhhhhh!!  You're needed in aisle 14!! ;D
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 06:53:22 pm »
I did notice the clutch lever was engaging further out than usual on the stroke. And I just bled the master and I had a 1/2 lever pull before any fluid came out. I may just have air in the system?

Greg Downing
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 06:54:31 pm »
If shifts smoothly and no missed shifts at all. Its just the feedback from the lever that is weird.

Oh, I am so easy on the clutch, never abuse it or race or dump the clutch. I doubt its even seen redline.
Greg Downing
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Offline Bud

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 07:07:56 pm »
Going back and bleeding the clutch is the cheap thing to do.  Give it a shot and see it you notice any improvement.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 07:13:17 pm »
Going back and bleeding the clutch is the cheap thing to do.  Give it a shot and see it you notice any improvement.

will do.
Greg Downing
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 08:13:33 pm »
Seems like most clutch problems are due to a corroded slave cylinder or broken star springs in the clutch.  IIRC there haven't been many star spring problems with the 14, but I believe there has been some.  I'm sure Rich will comment on this before the day is done.  Riiiiiiiiiiicccccccccchhhhhhhhhhh!!  You're needed in aisle 14!! ;D

 :rotflmao:

Reading closely the symptoms, sounds as if the master cylinder has a mini bit of blockage in that tiny return hole in the bottom of the reservoir...  even tho it was bled recently. Doesn't take but a small piece of grit, to prevent "return flow" to the M/C, and in event, kinda make this "bump" as the clutch is "placed under forces", where it can "put higher pressure on the back flow. Not a lot of issues as noted, with the mega star springs on the C14, and as the slipper section has some very robust springs in that "pack", I think they take up the most "slop" leaving the star springs pretty much pressure free...

I'd also suggest re-bleeding the master, but in a manner to "back flush" it up into the reservoir via the "return" flow.. I really don't recommend "poking stuff into the hole" in the M/C, this can and may damage the seals on that piston, and result in a total failure of the clutch..   forcing fluid thru the bleeder on the M/C, using a big syringe with some tubing clamped to it, may be all it needs to 'flow' that blockage, back up into the reservoir, where it can be "sucked out" along with any extra fluid..
As always, cover the painted areas with garbage bags, and towels, to prevent paint damage.

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 08:38:36 pm »
Will do that tomorrow MOB. Thanks for the help.

Will f/u with my findings.
Greg Downing
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 09:29:14 pm »
I will always defer to MOB so I would do what MOB is saying first.
What your describing to me sounds like a broken star spring.  The term you are feeling is called 'Double Bump'  and is more noticeable when shifting quickly with  the shift lever.
Does 'Double Bump' kind of  explain better what your feeling on the clutch lever.?
The only part missing is that with a broken star spring the clutch will slip under heavy throttle and you have not mentioned that.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 09:32:26 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 09:34:25 pm »
Yes its a double bump sensation at the lever. Passing cars today on the way home at max throttle and dropped down a few gears I had no clutch slipping.

Oh, and shifting slowly its not noticeable, but fast on the up shifts and downshifts its is really felt in the lever.

I hope its as easy as what MOB says to do at the master.
Greg Downing
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2019, 09:35:01 pm »
Seems like most clutch problems are due to a corroded slave cylinder or broken star springs in the clutch.  IIRC there haven't been many star spring problems with the 14, but I believe there has been some.  I'm sure Rich will comment on this before the day is done.  Riiiiiiiiiiicccccccccchhhhhhhhhhh!!  You're needed in aisle 14!! ;D
LOL
  I didn't read your post till after I posted. You are correct sir about most clutch problems.
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2019, 09:36:50 pm »
Yes its a double bump sensation at the lever. Passing cars today on the way home at max throttle and dropped down a few gears I had no clutch slipping.

I hope its as easy as what MOB says to do at the master.
yeah.. that double bump on a fast shift   and not so   much on a slow/ easy shift is normally a sure sign of a broken star spring. What you are feeling is the clutch pack bouncing back and forth in the basket. It  is not a hard thing to  fix.
 If it were me I would not wait too long to check it out. I was looking for a kit from Murphs for you but i do not see one.  This link is for an old concours 1000  so do NOT order this kit but read the description..kinda describes what you are feeling
https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?products_id=148&osCsid=zgSFIPJwzVzTI64-yQDka0
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 09:43:58 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2019, 09:40:45 pm »
Oh great! I guess I'll look at Partszilla and see where the SS's are located. Do you know if its 1 or more springs?
Greg Downing
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2019, 09:43:44 pm »
Its called a spring leaf? Looks like 4 springs.
Greg Downing
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 09:44:38 pm »
yes.. on the 1400 there are 4 springs as far as I know.
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 09:46:56 pm »
Its called a spring leaf? Looks like 4 springs.
Yup  those are them.. Leaf Springs... 2 of each.. funny term
and you want the gasket too.I have not done a C14 so I dont know if your supposed to replace the nut too.
Maybe MOB can chime in... MOB...your wanted on isle 14!!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 09:52:34 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 09:51:44 pm »
looking for the gasket, but not found it yet.
Greg Downing
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Washington State

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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2019, 09:53:51 pm »
try this for the gasket
11061-0810
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2019, 09:58:32 pm »
try this for the gasket
11061-0810

thats it, do I need anything else?
Greg Downing
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Washington State

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2019, 10:05:40 pm »
Parts ordered. It needs a valve check anyway so I get all of this done at one time. Thanks everyone.

I will bleed the clutch as MOB suggested. I'll take it out tomorrow to see if anything changed.

You know, it did feel to me like the clutch internals were moving about and pushing on the slave. But until now I could not think of how or why this could happen?
Greg Downing
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Washington State

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2019, 10:27:30 pm »
Its called a spring leaf? Looks like 4 springs.
Yup  those are them.. Leaf Springs... 2 of each.. funny term
and you want the gasket too.I have not done a C14 so I dont know if your supposed to replace the nut too.
Maybe MOB can chime in... MOB...your wanted on isle 14!!

I really don't think it's a star spring issue... and would not have suggested it, nor had said to "buy stuff", until proper diagnosis was done..
Sorry...
If it was a C10, I would have said "yeah, pick up the kit", but we have not had any amount of reports of this failure on a C14 yet..

the Nut thing does not apply to the C14 either, the "NUT" that was required when upgrading the C10 springs was... not the case on the C14...



Parts ordered. It needs a valve check anyway so I get all of this done at one time. Thanks everyone.

I will bleed the clutch as MOB suggested. I'll take it out tomorrow to see if anything changed.

You know, it did feel to me like the clutch internals were moving about and pushing on the slave. But until now I could not think of how or why this could happen?


also note, you were given the wrong gasket number....


oooops, I apologize, that was the new number, and correct...
11061-0810

older number correct gasket is
   11061-0198   GASKET,CLUTCH COVER
I guess they just changed the number, as I had the p/n written down from about 3 weeks ago..

Well, I'm sorry you spent the money, prior to doing the free and simple legwork first.  I don't mean to be disrespectful, but buying stuff, and tearing into the clutch, only to find everything there ok... or a different issue, is something I always caution people about.

the simple free stuff first..
I'll explain again about the effect of a blockage in the return flow to the M/C... when you release the clutch, and it's now under full spring pressures, as normal, it will oscillate, by the action of the "cam damper", and combined with the spring pressure on the perssure plate, and the slipper pack, thru the pushrod, on the slave cylinder and "force" the fluid up the the M/C, and will be felt in the lever.. then everything returns to it's "neutral happy place"... the clutch ain't slipping.. if it was, I'd say "maybe" a star finger broke.. but so far I have not seen any happen...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:02:01 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2019, 10:45:03 pm »
Thanks MOB, I know I should try the easy path first. I have quite the parts in my closet of shame. I am easy to jump before truly trying other options.

I'll be back flushing the system tomorrow as you suggested.
Greg Downing
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Washington State

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2019, 11:21:47 pm »
When I discovered some floating oil in my KLR radiator fluid all forum members pointed to the water pump seals that separates the oil/coolant and I went and bought all the parts to make the repair.

Turned out that using my bore scope through the spark plug hole I had a shiny spot on the piston top. That was a blown head gasket I repaired. More parts for my closet of shame. If the water pump ever fails on the KLR I have the parts!!!  :beerchug:

So, using a syringe (with brake fluid) with some fish tank tubing, apply some slight pressure from the master bleed port to back flush the master into the reservoir. I'll be sure to drop the reservoir as low as possible so not to overflow it. Brake fluid I know is very caustic to all sorts of materials. Specifically painted surfaces.
Greg Downing
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2019, 11:32:13 pm »
yeah,
if you can enlist a "trusted friend/spouse" etc., it goes a lot smoother on that process...:
remove about 3/4 of the fluid, from the m/c, keeping the bottom hole "covered with 1/4" or so..
then, using the syringe, and hose, apply it by "cracking the bleeder, gently squeezing fluid in, and reclosing the bleeder..  repeat a few times, with the lever "actuated in various positions thru the stroke" (don't pump it, just move it and hold it, to allow the different paths to be "purged") up to the reservoir.. and keep an ey on that level, suck it out as needed, and look for any debris that "pops up there"... I had one hellluva time when I decided to do a flush and fill, after disassembling and inspecting a M/C, before I really needed to.. it took 4 hands, and some "inventing" just to re assemble the m/c correctly.  So, disassembly on your own, down to pulling the gutz out, is not a recommended chore... bt/dt..  :-X

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Mechanical question=Clutch issues
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2019, 11:43:00 pm »
Thanks MOB.  Its not to often we those break. I was just on a facebook site and read about someone there who broke theirs.
Here is an older post about a 2010 with broken springs and a person further  below saying his 2012 has the same symptom but never came back to say what he found.
Good pics:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/c14-clutch-star-springs-failure/
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit 100+HP  + way more torque.
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!