Author Topic: metal shavings in oil?  (Read 3806 times)

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Offline Gary

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2018, 10:22:20 pm »
No worries, I have read your material over the years and recognize your C14 knowledge is far greater than mine, and certainly more helpful.  All good here!

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2018, 11:20:51 pm »
At this point, I just don't know what to say to the owner.   :truce: :truce: :truce:

I do. See post 80, 83, 89, and 93.
           Then go from thereā€¦.   
ie; Start with what you know, investigate why it's happening, and repair as needed.
                       ;)

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 01:27:26 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2018, 06:05:05 am »
     Good evening to all.
I did hope that some day I would meet with Gary again to thank him for the bike, and how he kept it, this wasn't the scenario I was thinking of. Thanks Gary for your input and response.Now to the bike. The springs on the backside of the housing(basket), the ones that are in the pics,well I don't see any where on the case or bearing that has made any contact with them. I do think that the event or impact that caused the damage at the spring ends made more space between the landings, that the springs shifted back and forth to cause the flat spots on them,  If you look in the pics( I tried to capture it), behind the springs on the aluminum backing, there is worn down spots where the springs lay. I do agree with the replacement of that housing. The friction plates thickness measurements are that of being new or just wearing in, I don't think there is too much of a problem using them. The steel plates do have odd patterns on them, it looks like over spray from paint is the only way to describe. The spring free length on those springs are unknown, there wasn't any slipping or grabbing any time I have rode, they may be ok. The only thing in the case that seems to b out of order(other than the damage from the metal circulating through the lubrication system)is the end of the shaft where the clutch assembly is fastened, the end of the shaft looks to be discoloured. That might have been heat treating or tempering from the factory?? I really think that the engine has taken some heavy premature wear and its expectancy is going to be short lived, Other parts I think will either be troublesome or fail due to this incident(like the water pump that just started to leak)I will say that MOB and Bud are completely accurate when bummed is mentioned. I am more than wanting to remove the oil pan to give a direct assessment of the gears and some of the lower parts of the engine, but Im not sure if that is going to solve this. Any thoughts on that would be very useful and appreciated.
    Thanks and have a wonderful night.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2018, 12:13:10 pm »
  I have been asked to look at this thread and weigh in. I had not, until now, because I haven't seen a linear thought process on the diagnosis, and that leaves all of those trying to help reduced to "wild *ss guess" rather than an "educated guess".

  So here's a question I would like answered by the OP. You state there is the same metal shavings in the coolant as in the oil. These are 2 distinctly different engine systems, and they don't cross, or there would be water in the oil. I only see one place in the assembly this could happen, the waterpump. and it would need to be a radial shaving of metal on each side of the shaft seal.

   In other words, the shaft would be walking in and out, the impeller grinding metal from the inside of the pump on the water side, but what would grind metal on the oil side?  Does the waterpump have metal ground off each side of it?

  Please examine these components, and / or otherwise please explain how the same metal shavings can be in both the coolant and oil.

  Steve
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2018, 06:57:58 pm »
     Hello Steve
   I did inspect the water pump that was removed from this bike. I do not  see any grinding on the sides, it appears to have normal wear for a, 18000ish mile machine. I do understand that there are 2 systems that dont have a common place for this to occur. The metal in the coolant I am describing is very small, but can be seen when in a transparent container with some illumination, there isnt near as the amount of reflective particles in the coolant as I have witnessed in the lubrication system. Steve, I am very thankful that you have spent some time on a solution, even if only a little. I can assure this is unpleasant for me and if there were a SOP for this issue, I would follow to it completely. Many replies and insights are correct, of the descriptions of my findings  do appear to be an exaggeration, and on that I personally have not seen this in any of the thousands of engines I have worked on, no I cannot explain what I have discovered.

Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2018, 08:30:02 pm »
Did you or are you going to do the Blackstone oil analysis? :beerchug:
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2018, 09:09:12 pm »
     No and yes, I havent sent a sample in, I will send a sample in when the bike runs regularly. It has crossed my mind that the bike has been tampered with. I do live in Vegas.

Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2018, 09:35:08 pm »
If it was me and my bike I would have already, I would want to know for sure whats going on. OK I hope you get it fixed. :beerchug:
Greg Downing
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2018, 10:02:56 pm »
Can you see what the timing chain is rubbing?
Did the water pump appear to be leaking at the seal, or elsewhere?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2018, 10:33:21 pm »
Oil analysis for the win. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200.00. Do not do anything else.

  BLACKSTONE LABS.

 Steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2018, 11:30:00 pm »
Can you see what the timing chain is rubbing?

Ride safe, Ted


where is this new thing coming from?

 :??: :??: ::) ::) ::) ::)

I missed it somewhere?

never mind, I went back and read again...


...but I got a text from Jason today stating that most lower bolts on the engine had been touched before.  He found metal and unknown stuff in the coolant.  The timing chain has been chewed on by something.  That should give everyone something to think about for a while.


    Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces.

there are simply too many issues reported, that seem to be "wear" and the word "excessive/significant" is being used in a manner that may seem as such, but to others may be a 'normal' or irrelevant appearance. Until another trained eye, with regards to normal is involved, I'm bowing out as this has gone from a perfectly running bike, with some shiny bits in the oil, to a disassembled pile of parts, looking for every possible cause.


I'm truly sorry to have to bow out, because I greatly enjoy a tech challenge, and find great enjoyment giving assistance, and seeing a successful outcome. I feel very proficient at specific motorcycle repairs and maintenance but I'm not perfect. I highly regard Steve also, as a fellow with the same passions I have/had, with a subsequent timeline. I'm 63, been doing this "hobby" for almost 50 years. I really have to rationalize statements, in dealing with mechanical issues, especially this one when reading something like this:
...... Many replies and insights are correct, of the descriptions of my findings  do appear to be an exaggeration, and on that I personally have not seen this in any of the thousands of engines I have worked on, no I cannot explain what I have discovered.


To tear down an engine, analyze it, reassemble it, even one engine every week: would take 20 years, to total 1000. If I had done that for a living, I don't think I'd be here doing and asking such as this.

I would highly suggest kawasaki be involved on an upper tier level, if all this has been found, found that is, by a trained Kawasaki technician, at corporate level.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:37:30 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline JerBear

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2018, 12:00:59 am »
this is where that was MOB


   Hello all COG folks
     I have been able to sneak on a friends computer for a minute, so I will give you a brief update. Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces. I sat back and the coolant I had drained from the system looked to have a unusual appearance, and upon a closer inspection, there is similar metal particles in the cooling system, and I can see that its enough where I do believe the life expectancy of the engine will be rather short. So I am at a slight impass of to continue tearing it down or run her till it just wears itself out. The more I look the more things I really do want to find. Bud has been helping me with the pics and has been good to talk to, I believe he sent a computer, so I should be up and running soon. I am very grateful for all the help and insights, and time doing research. Any ideas at this time are good ones. thanks again all and have a good evening.

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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2018, 12:52:18 am »
     Hello fellas and others
   On the timing chain, the inner side that contacts the gears, shows similar marks in it as the oil pump impeller. The water pump has coolant residue coming from the weep hole, and inside from the weep hole where the water pump mates to the side of the engine, there is a small portion of debris where it could settle. Other than that it has very light indications of wear from the seal.I will get an appropriate kit or 2 coming. I would like to know exactly what is in the cooling system as well, I think they can test coolant. Thanks  guys

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2018, 01:50:41 pm »
I agree. We're running around in circles.
      Stop and get the oil analyzed.
On post #1, we asked if the metal was aluminum or steel.   {that must be answered}.

While your waiting for that info, take the frame and engine number to Kawasaki and have them run it thru their computer.
   It may show that (maybe at the factory or elsewhere) someone has been inside this motor {and why}.

Ride safe, Ted
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Online Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2018, 07:12:01 pm »
Talked to Jason this morning on his way to work.  We discussed oil analysis and I stressed the need for that to be done post-haste.  Since we've all wanted this a few weeks ago, I looked online for a lab in Nevada.  Found this one http://cashmanfluidsanalysis.com/testing-services/oil-testing/  This is in Sparks, NV so hopefully it will go more quickly than sending to Blackstone, back in good ole Indiana.  If it's Blackstone or nothing, please say so quickly, otherwise it's going to cashman or some other place close, asap.  Jason works a bunch of hours so I can't say with certainty how fast asap is.  I'm an impatient feller so I'm hoping tomorrow.

As for calling a Kawi dealer with a VIN, I've called 1 a few miles from me and another a bit farther away.  I got the same info from both that was verified by Gary in his post.  Nothing about any major problems or going deep in the engine. 

I also stressed the need for more quality pics of things (who doesn't love a pic?) that he is seeing.  Hopefully he's going to come up with a camera to replace the other failed one, so we can add to the pics we already have.

Lastly, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for their help and patience with this.  I know how long this has gone on without a bunch of progress.  We need to help Jason stay focused (thanks Ted) and on the path to a successful conclusion.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2018, 03:31:29 pm »
Blackstone gives a very good explanation on what materials are present in the oil and what the possible causes are. Does this lab you posted as an option do the same?
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Online Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2018, 04:16:40 pm »
I just called them and asked if they would report possible causes of what they find in the oil.  I did specify motorcycle oil.  They said that they do that.  Go to the link posted and read further for more info.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2018, 08:38:58 pm »
Any updates on the oil analysis? :beerchug:
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Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2019, 01:45:35 am »
Guess we will never know this outcome, unfortunate.
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Online Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2019, 04:46:38 pm »
Talked to Jason this morning.  He's having shoulder problems.  It's not over yet.  Have patience folks.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2019, 03:40:59 pm »
Sorry to hear that.
Hope the shoulder gets better.
Anxious to hear what the Oil Analysis tells him.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #121 on: Today at 12:56:55 am »
any updates?
Greg Downing
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