Author Topic: metal shavings in oil?  (Read 5021 times)

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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2018, 05:59:05 pm »
  Freddy, how are you doing ? Im losing a little sleep over this one.

   One to it then. The filter I torn down did in fact have metal debris in it without a doubt. I was able to scrape the shavings from the element, and just feel them between my fingers when rubbed together, but with the oil, I have let settle over night or even for several days, and run my finger through it and there is this trail pattern of shinny metal(kinda like them fancy coffee drinks with designs in them). I showed it to my neighbor, who has zero mechanical skill or knowledge, says " is that metal". I would like to mention how well engineered and well constructed the interior engine and trans are.

      The clutch housing, if I hold the entire clutch assembly with both hands and move it say up and down, there is a very little movement. I disassembled the housing last night and the needle bearing it rides upon looks good, as well does the shaft. the clutch friction plates appear to be ok, other that the reflective flakes on them.
      As a mechanic, I an certain if I continue to ride, the motor and or transmission will fail. " If man made it...... Man can fix it"
   

Offline strum

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2018, 07:43:44 pm »
Jason is there any warranty left on you bike?
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2018, 07:56:16 pm »
   No warranty, I bought from private owner.. I have lived here in Vegas on and off for about 6 years, and do not know any moto mechanics. The mechanics that I have encountered are not acceptable to be working on. I have split cases before on single cylinders, but I think that will be last resort.

Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2018, 08:07:27 pm »
Got these pics from Jason. 
First is from the oil filter draining upside down for 4 days. 

Second pic is most recent oil in drain bucket with less than 100 miles.  The fourth oil change in 3 weeks.  Rotella T6 5w40
2005 Kawasaki Concours
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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2018, 08:27:48 pm »
Let Blackstone labs analyze it. That ends all speculation!
Nicole     Port St Lucie, FL.
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Offline gpd323

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2018, 08:32:02 pm »
Let Blackstone labs analyze it. That ends all speculation!

I've used Blackstone many times in the past with my Autocross and track cars. They will send you a kit for free IIRC and then just do as the instructions says and you will get a comprehensive oil breakdown of the oil comp.
Greg Downing
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Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2018, 08:33:57 pm »
2005 Kawasaki Concours
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1983 Honda GL650I SilverWing

Offline Freddy

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2018, 09:37:54 pm »
That's a little 'clearer' now Jason, a first for the 1400 I think -sorry.

It's either aluminium or white-metal from the crankshaft bearings, probably the former but get it analysed as advised.  If there is no obvious wear/damage within the clutch assembly, then it becomes a deeper investigative process once you get the results back.

I've had the engine out of mine to split the case for another issue.  It's not hard but is time consuming and obviously requires some knowledge, skill and care.  Hopefully you don't need to go this deep.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/tranny-locked-up/50/

Best of luck with it. 
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2018, 10:03:40 pm »
   Thanks for the link, I will most likely send in a sample. With the side covers off, I have inspected everything within range of a light and mirror, and nothing out of normal wear and tear. I have a bore scope at work Im headed to retrieve now. Sheez!!,,, crank bearings,very possible. I found that the water pump has just started to leak from weep hole. I am confident that we are close to a conclusion thanks to COG community.  Yes this is my first !400,, and first Kawasaki for that matter..I was able to solve 2 oil leaks previously from COG forums just recently.

   

Offline Freddy

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2018, 10:11:55 pm »
I really don't think it would be crank bearings as it would almost certainly have seized or be making bad noises.
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2018, 11:10:22 pm »
after reading this completely, I have a couple comments.

First off, sending an oil sample to the lab, is great advice, and I highly recommend it just for your peace of mind.

at 18k miles on the bike, while technically 'broken in', some wear does still occur, and some sheen being seen in the oil is not really abnormal; but it's still something to watch... I don't think it will "explode" by any means, soon.
Often what is seen in pil, is what was noted, and can be confused with metal, when it is moisture, or even aeration occuring as a result of moisture and air, and this also does prevent it from looking 'clear', i.e. shining a light thru it. The light is diffused byt the micro-bubbles, which do act as a 'solid looking substance'.
 Personally, i am NOT a fan of magnetic drain plugs "generically", as many have compromised strength, by drilling into them axially, for placement of the magnetic 'slug', turning what was a solid plug, into a very thin walled tube, which when torqued to the same rating as the original bolt will snap off, and make for a painful removal process... I've removed a dozen or so broken mag plugs over the last 15 years. Even the best ones (Gold Plug), can fracture.. so I caution folks not to get "torquey" with any of them.

Besides a Mag Plug, do an online search for "strong, rare earth magnet" suppliers, you can purchase extremely powerful strong but small sized magnets, which when stuck to the "hex" of the drain bolt, will never be 'knocked off.. or lost" and it will give you a strong, non breaking, magnetic drain plug...

I do like the "speaker magnet" on the oil filter thing also, but in reality, and the way the C14 oil path flows.. anything found in the filter is microns.. (microscopic, and less than .001", if even that), because the oil pump "pickup" is pre screened thru a very fine mesh pre filter sitting in the pan area. There should NEVER be any "grit sized" metal in the filter, as it would be pre screened before it's pumped to the filter. If grit sized particulates are seen in the filter, it's coming from the oil pump to filter pathway. Not the pan.
If you have an FSM, read it closely, and note the oil passages, and oil routes, and will see clearly what I'm saying.
Mind you, micro particles do "bond and group" together in drained oil, so it seems like a lot when seen as a 'silvery sheen', but in realistic terms, there isn't much even tho it 'looks like it'. Filtering a sample, warmed and kept warm, thru 2 or 3 cone shaped coffee filters in a funnel, into a container, will show you 'really' how much was present... but that may take days to drain thru the paper filter media.Each filter will catch progressively more of the particles, and the bottom one should just be "oil wetted".  It's a cheap test you can do, I've done it many times...

Now, onto your recent discovery about a water pump seal... do a search and find where I gave the breakdown for the seals, and rebuilding the waterpump... it is owner doable, and saves big $$$..

best of luck, I say button it up, and ride it, while waiting for your return analysis from Blackstone labs...

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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2018, 01:08:34 am »
Hey Jason, I'm in Hendo NV please feel free to reach out. I also have not had much luck with good local shops.  :'( The benefit of oil analysis (and I do it at work quarterly on our equipment) is building a trend. To watch if contaminants are increasing. They may be able to give you ISO ratings and material type but they won't be able to tell you where its coming from. Me thinks, and take it for what it's worth, with only 18k on the motor I suspect your still seeing shedding from break in. I have close to 70k on my 11 and I still get shines in the oil. I pour my oil through a rare earth mag grate and get a sludge sticking. That's the metallic microscopic particles bonding to the non magnetic spooge.   You mentioned a water pump leak. The water pump does have a oil weted end that may be a source. I have a spare that needs a reseal that MOB helped me out with spotting seals. And a way to change it out relatively easy. Your more than welcome to it. I'll give you the pump and help swap in exchange for a membership join (As an AD I have to do it  ;)). Otherwise I would agree, change the earl regularly and ride her until she explodes.
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Offline MtnRider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2018, 07:49:04 pm »
I just ordered the sample kit from Blackstone. I knew I liked these guys as soon as I read their FAQ. They've got a great sense of humor.
2015 Black C14
It works ok, I'm going to improve it. It works better, I'm going to improve it. It works great, I'm going to imp.... Sh*t, I broke it!!!

Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 04:55:53 am »
     Good evening to all.
    I do agree with mtnrider,,,its a good read on the faq...I have located my elusive problem!!! Thanks to all and everyone of theses replies. It must have been that lambo she was snacking on a couple of weeks ago up the canyon, and thats what remains......
    I know, I just had to say it. MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil.   I am going to sleep tonight,  oh yeah. Thanks all once again.

       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

       



Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 09:34:18 am »
     Good evening to all.
    I do agree with mtnrider,,,its a good read on the faq...I have located my elusive problem!!! Thanks to all and everyone of theses replies. It must have been that lambo she was snacking on a couple of weeks ago up the canyon, and thats what remains......
    I know, I just had to say it. MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil.   I am going to sleep tonight,  oh yeah. Thanks all once again.

       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

So I have to ask, how do the clutch basket damper springs get chewed on?
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2018, 03:46:35 pm »
Same question, and "why are yours wearing excessively and our's are not"..?

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 08:33:15 pm »
Same question, and "why are yours wearing excessively and our's are not"..?

Ride safe, Ted

now I'm curious about some stuff also, like if what he is calling "damper springs" are which ones...
the Star springs? (4 in this engine), or the tension "pack assembly" springs and plates behind all this... ? I realize this clutch is twice as complex as a C10 slipper clutch, and all the parts in there do different tension functions... in conjunction the the slipper back torque cam, but nothing in there should be "wearing off metal", also during re-assembly, more care to which friction plates, and steel plates go where they should be, as there are mutiples of each, and they differ in configuration and correct location within the stack. I will say that as these engines go, there tends to be a lot of "shaving" in the grooves the friction plates radial "keys" ride in, and does result in some residue being present, which IS normal, thru out the complete life of the bike, even when the clutch is operating perfectly..

but without having these parts in front of me it's tough to say if anything really is worn, or amiss...
Without having a spare drive gear shaft, to assemble and inspect the whole thing on when it's out of the bike, it's a gamble on trying to pinpoint the assembly or if in fact something is amiss...
personally I would not have torn this all apart that far, and at this point I would look, but still clean everything up well, lubricate all the parts and plates with clean oil, and carefully reassemble it all back to "as built"...

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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 10:23:21 pm »
       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

     You Bet.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2018, 10:29:17 pm »
Jason, exactly which items(s) are you referring to?

http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone

I can't see broken star springs 'creating' metal in the oil (which is what I was referring to in the pm).
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 11:05:13 pm »
Mebbe the 92145A ??

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2018, 11:36:33 pm »
Mebbe the 92145A ??

Ride safe, Ted


thats the clamping assmebly I am asking about, there are a bunch of springs in that pack when assembled, it requires a special tool to compress the pack for disassembly, a kind of "tube" thing, used on a press.. to allow the removal of the bolts...

Jason, exactly which items(s) are you referring to?

http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone

I can't see broken star springs 'creating' metal in the oil (which is what I was referring to in the pm).


hmmm.. broken start springs, with parts broken off, will chew up aluminum and migrate around, chewing up everything they get pinched in between... so i cant agree with ya on that.  I can't say, waiting for his response, and maybe ....some photos......?

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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2018, 02:54:04 am »
   Good evening folks,   Just getting home after normal !3 hour work days.
     The springs and the other parts that have been damaged are at the very back of the clutch, this componant holds all the other parts of the clutch,,some refer to it as a basket. There are actually three different parts of it that are riveted together. I dont recall an event that occured to cause this, and I have changed the oil several times prior to that discovery. does that help a little...and it doesnt happen very often,,,,at all..   
i have seen the damping springs on cars and trucks that were damaged, and from that the transmission was also damaged from those events. The ones I have encountered had many miles and very low maintenance.   does that describe it any better?       
P/N 13095

Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2018, 03:13:51 am »
  I do apologize for my inconsistant updates and replies, and for that matter lack of photos.. I would say this would be the first time using PC for communication of this nature,,,,yep first forum,,,,ever.  If you wonderful folks can be patient with me, I will learn accordingly.  ..I say that being that this Concours is,,,,well,,,,A kick a** machine!!!!
It is one of those rare items in life I have found, that performs well above what was and is presumed,,,and for the most part very well behaved and lazer focused. We get along very well.


Offline Freddy

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2018, 11:10:07 am »
13095 eh Jason?  Well that's a first.  Thanks for the clarification.   :beerchug:
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Offline SidehackV45

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2018, 01:49:02 pm »
Hmmmm... the P/N the gentleman is referring to is the 13095-0083, clutch housing, complete as per the parts fiche. The springs aren't replaceable, at least not by individual sourcing and installing, like the other clutch springs, that are felt as resistance when the clutch lever is actuated. I have never, ever seen these damper springs "damaged" on any motorcycle I've ever worked on. These springs, generally, aren't tight in those locations they inhabit, they move around a bit. And if you say they're chewed up, well, I have to believe you, but if you're seeing debris on and around them and assuming that's spring material, it may not be. Might simply be paint. Yep, paint.

I had similar issues with my Nomad 1600, but with the clutch pack springs (not the released disk spring, but the actual pack springs) which were painted a white color at manufacturing and eventually, this paint came off. Left exactly the debris floating in oil situation the writer depicts in his photos. I am unsure, but it's likely these damper springs, perhaps the housing itself, may have been painted, just some spot painting usually, as an aid to identification during the assembly process at the factory. It's usually a very thin shot of some sort of color, and after time, eventually comes off.

I'd really like to see a photo(s) of the damaged springs, but if that's the problem, it's a great find and my commendations. That'd be a first I've ever heard of those springs doing that on any bike, however. Certainly possible, however.

TB