Author Topic: metal shavings in oil?  (Read 5020 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2018, 02:25:07 pm »
Somewhere (probably in this Forum) someone (I think Steve) described how this slipper clutch operates.
Seems that I recall that it has to be installed a certain way to operate correctly.
Maybe this one was installed incorrectly?

Yes, I know that's vague. Hoping someone will recall the discussion?
   I'll try to find the discussion.

Ride safe, Ted

Update: I found it!
            Lots of good information, but it doesn't discuss the springs Jason is describing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVKQVembC7A
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 02:54:11 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline AmphibSailor

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2018, 02:38:57 pm »
Ted, was Steve's video? what you were talking about?
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2018, 02:56:57 pm »
Arrghh, ya beat me to it.  :-[
  {Guess I spent too long looking at the video...}  :truce:

Thanx; Ride safe, Ted
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2018, 08:39:01 pm »
see what I mean about "mis named" parts?,  :rotflmao:

when the "damper" thing was being tossed around, I needed clarification, as there is truely a "damper assembly" behind all that...
The actual clutch "basket" with non replaceable springs, which act to absorb some "shudder" in the clutch actuation, does somewhat have a bit of loosness, but this is all controlled by the combination of the splines on the steel plates, and the inner basket hub, and also the external "tabs" on the friction plates, which I eluded to prior as a pint where "some metal gets scrubbed off"...

the rotation of the basket, and everything inside, is explained, and a rotational limit is given, in the FSM, but again as I noted, it's inspected out of the bike, on a spare gear shaft, which is held in a vice....

I've attached that page for reference... even tho I would be hardpressed to think that with the miles on this bike, there is any actual measurable wear, of the clutch, or other parts, to create an out of spec reading....

read the attached.

NOTE;
edited to remove the file showing the procedure, as I'm told it violates "rule 15"
sorry... buy a FSM folks.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:49:47 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2018, 08:44:01 pm »
I'll also comment on the basket... I serviced probably 75 complete clutch re-furbs, on various Japanese machines, and have always found the springs in these baskets loose enough to rattle when in place, and the basket its "tapped on"...

so don't sweat this... you are being a bit over worried about a normal condition, which is stemming from seeing some sheen in your oil, on a bike with LOW miles...

clean everything up, re-oil the plates, re-assemble it all, fill with fresh oil and new filter.... and ride it. :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

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Offline Freddy

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2018, 08:49:31 pm »
agreed MOB.  In the op's defence, those springs do provide a dampening effect between the crankshaft and transmission.   :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2018, 09:17:33 pm »
agreed MOB.  In the op's defence, those springs do provide a dampening effect between the crankshaft and transmission.   :beerchug:

yes, but in a minimal fashion, and they have no real "drive" dampening per-se, they are simply to reduce clutch "shudder"... this same setup is found on almost all, if not all, automotive clutch friction plates...  and they all rattle.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :great:

as I said, there IS a very robust "dampener assembly" that does the actual "clutch/drive" dampening, and assists for the slipper function... and it and all it's parts are called "dampener parts".

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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2018, 12:36:36 am »
ahhhh for the wicked rattle of a dry clutch at a stop light.  ;)
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2018, 01:22:59 am »
    Yeah it is a bit unusual, it was just recently that I could hear a slight grumble at idle, pull clutch in and it would quiet up.   Any suggestions on locating one that isnt from kawi??? They want my first born for a new one

Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2018, 11:44:46 am »
Partzilla is quite competitive on pricing.  https://www.partzilla.com/product/kawasaki/13095-0084?ref=f2334bf114f2193886bef9dc6f99371fd455217a

List $492.68   23% OFF
Partzilla $381.09
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:04:43 am by Bud, Reason: Add price »
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2018, 03:39:39 pm »
Jason, you've never said why you were initially working on the clutch, and why you suspect the metal shavings are from the clutch?
        And, I don't know if you said the shavings are steel or aluminum?
To me, the springs you've found would not make the shavings you are seeing.
           The images of metal in your oil, appear to be more like wear from a rubbing surface.

For instance: On the C-10's we saw similar indications when a tensioner on the internal chains failed and allowed the chain to rub against the case.

Not certain that a ZX and Connie use the same clutch{?}, but,,, here is an option if "yes".
{I found 4 of these}
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2018, 05:41:19 pm »
     Good morning fellas,
        Thank you for the links, I like those prices better than the 500ish from kawi. Connie rider you are correct, I have found that in the clutch housing, the springs that are on the back have had what appears to be an impact, and have worn into the housing and several of the springs have significant wear(flat spots on the springs themselves) MOB mentioned the oil passages, and that took me in the direction of easier covers and cases, hoses pipes, screens that the oil is distributed. I initially wanted to inspect the oil pump, and removed it and saw it was banged up, its direct neighbor is the clutch housing. Looking over the parts removed(with 3 sets of reading glasses stacked on my face) there is more than just normal wear and tear. As sturdy as this engine is built, I think it will give me some good rides for a while. Upon inspection of the clutch springs. they do appear to be short. does anyone know the free length measurement?? that is the springs for the friction plates

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2018, 07:38:12 pm »
I don't think you are grasping the parts about "even tho you may think the springs in the basket are an issue, Visually they don't matter.."
and unless the assembly is inspected as per the FSM, replacement of that part only, is an expensive guess, and bandaid approach.


Now, the SPRINGS...
again, decoding what you may be asking, and I assume about friction plate springs...

the outer pressure plate, which is called "spring plate" in manual, is
p/n 13187-0012   PLATe,CLUTCH
OPERATING
   
the 6 outer springs, that compress the outer pressure plate against the stack, are
p/n 92145-0440   SPRING,15X2.7   6

these are the only springs that have a wear/dimension associated with them, for inspection...as follows.

Clutch Spring Free Length
Standard: 65.0 mm (2.56 in.)
Service Limit: 62.0 mm (2.44 in.)

NOTE;
I've lined this out for now, see post #70 about discrepancies in manual...


note: this dimension applies only to OEM springs, aftermarket springs may, and likely WILL differ, and in reality "free length" is not a good means of measurement, springs should have a "X pound/kg @ X length" measurement... so any aftermarket spring can't really be trusted to be equivilant.

no OTHER spring inspections are noted for anything else, other than the Basket Rotation, as I noted, and in the means I noted on the attached page I referenced prior...
So buying a basket, without seeing if the one you have is out of spec, is a waste of effort.

the other parts below, I'm tossing in, just because I have no life, and to toss them out there for other future use...

the 12 springs that live between the 2 pressure plates, in the dampener mechanism are
p/n    92145-0537   SPRING   12

the torque limiter springs, which we call "star springs", 4 total, 2 of each are
p/n 39130-1078   SPRING-LEAF   2
and 39130-1079   SPRING-LEAF   2

the basket is
p/n 13095-0084 HOUSING-COMP-CLUTCH

the clutch hub, which sits in the basket is
p/n 13087-0044   HUB-CLUTCH,FIXED   

the clutch sub hub, which sits inside the clutch hub, and has pressure placed on it from the "dampner assembly" from behind, is
p/n 13087-0038   HUB-CLUTCH,MOVABLE

also note, the "sub clutch hub" moves axially within the fixed clutch hub, and is restricted from rotation by the system of radial splines that interface... these also can wear slightly, over time, and produce micro particles of "shiny" stuff...   
   
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:51:07 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2018, 07:50:43 pm »

Not certain that a ZX and Connie use the same clutch{?}, but,,, here is an option if "yes".
{I found 4 of these}
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0

Ride safe, Ted


NOPE.... totally different clutch.... not the same at all....  :-X :-[ :-[ ::) ::) ::)

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2018, 08:44:27 pm »
Jason, you've never said why you were initially working on the clutch, and why you suspect the metal shavings are from the clutch?
        And, I don't know if you said the shavings are steel or aluminum?
To me, the springs you've found would not make the shavings you are seeing.
           The images of metal in your oil, appear to be more like wear from a rubbing surface.

.....

he took what I was saying about grit in a FILTER, way past the intent of the explanation...

after reading this completely, I have a couple comments.

......
at 18k miles on the bike, while technically 'broken in', some wear does still occur, and some sheen being seen in the oil is not really abnormal; but it's still something to watch... I don't think it will "explode" by any means, soon.......

.. anything found in the filter is microns.. (microscopic, and less than .001", if even that), because the oil pump "pickup" is pre screened thru a very fine mesh pre filter sitting in the pan area. There should NEVER be any "grit sized" metal in the filter, as it would be pre screened before it's pumped to the filter. If grit sized particulates are seen in the filter, it's coming from the oil pump to filter pathway. Not the pan......

If you have an FSM, read it closely, and note the oil passages, and oil routes, and will see clearly what I'm saying.
.....

and then went on a venture off tangent to explore... but I at that point began to disagree with effectivity of this exploration...

    ....... MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil. ....
     

then, it snowballed and turned into what he believes is the cause, which again, I tend to disagree on, after many "post mortem's" on clutches in my life...

whatever works tho, if replacing parts "cures it", all is good... but how much $ and how much time and miles needed to say "it worked" is considered, it's a longshot.

even then, new parts will still require completely starting from scratch, and assembling it, and inspecting it for "in spec", on a drive gear shaft, off the bike...
as explained in the attachment below...again,

NOTE;
edited to remove the file showing the procedure, as I'm told it violates "rule 15"
sorry... buy a FSM folks.

 :'(
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:44:12 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline SidehackV45

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2018, 09:50:56 am »

Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2018, 06:51:03 pm »
Here's the pics guys!  Posting this link to a google photos folder so that the pics don't have to be compressed.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRrv4wtryBP7WXWL8

Offline Mettler1

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2018, 08:36:16 pm »
 Don't know what to say but that looks ugly! ::)
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Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2018, 09:04:30 pm »
Don't know what to say but that looks ugly! ::)
No warm and fuzzy in those pics. 
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2018, 09:12:13 pm »
    Thanks to a very helpful, friendly, fellow COGer, Now there is some more clarification visually. The 3 containers side by side, are. 
 1- new oil,    right out of container.
 2- the second oil change that was drained after the initial find. in which was 10 minutes of idle time only.
 3- less than 80 miles of actual ride time.
   I inquired about the clutch springs for the friction plates, due to what specs I have found, are much shorter than that. mine measure at 1.42 in.
   For the springs on the back side of the basket, I do know that they arent serviceable(I had to try)
   The pics of the white line mark on the back of basket(housing). is how much movement there is in that assembly without any other parts in it, no hub or plates.
   From the look of the oil pump, well there is some damage throughout........soooooo thats where I am currently at

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2018, 10:17:46 pm »
I have to apologize for the spec on the spring length I quoted, as I am questioning my manual right now;
Originally, I gave a figure, that was in the pages showing a longer length, so now I have to question if that spec was actually for the friction plate springs (the 6 outer ones), or in reality the damper springs (12 sandwiched in the damper)...page 6-20 the book is very lacking on that,
 But, from the table in the front of the section, on measurements, (page 6-4) they show clutch springs differently...
Clutch Spring Free Length 41.6 mm (1.64 in.)normal.... replace at 40.1 mm (1.58 in.)

as for the "white marks/allignment" on the back of the rotating section of the basket, it's not the rotation that is being measured there... it's how much the assembled stack and guts, when mounted on the shaft, 'move/raise' the stack, as a min/max measurement when that rotation of the cam, and everything is rotated... the stack lift (measured on the center surface of the outer pressure plate) should fall between 0.002 ∼ 0.028 in

To measure the free play, set a dial gauge against the raised center of the clutch spring plate.
Move the clutch housing gear back and forth . The difference between the highest and lowest gauge readings is the amount of free play.
Spring Plate Free Play
Usable Range: 0.05 ∼ 0.70 mm (0.002 ∼ 0.028 in.)
If the free play is not within the usable range, change all
of the friction plate and measure the free play again.
If the free play is not within the usable range, adjust the
free play ( by replacing steel plates in the stack).
As outlined in the FSM

I was asked to remove the page I posted, so all I can do is 'verbally' explain that.

the chewed up spots you showed, don't look 'good', but I've seen worse, and I'd suggest you show those pics to a "certified Kawasaki Service Technician" for their opinions...

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and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Bud

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2018, 10:30:47 pm »
So what happened to bring all of this on?
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2018, 10:45:34 pm »
   I do spend an incredible amount of time with the bike and I was doing some polishing, It had occured  to me that it had been over 2000 miles since last oil change, and that had been through some hot days. I  drained the oil and that was the beginning of this adventure.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2018, 11:10:23 pm »
Jason; the pictures helped clarify what you've been talking about.

Did you watch Steve's video on the slipper clutch?
In it, he points out that everything has to be right for the slipper clutch to operate correctly.
He also mentioned that he tried a non slipper in his C-10 and removed it immediately...

By the way; Do you have a Shop manual??? If no. Get 1 now..
    In my service manual {pages 6-4 and 6-20} it says that the clutch springs are supposed to be 32.11 mm / 1.264" with
           a service limit of 31.00 mm / 1.22".
    Rich say's his manual specifies "Clutch Spring Free Length 41.6 mm (1.64 in.)normal.  replace at 40.1 mm (1.58 in.)".
    You said yours are 1.42"??

Definitely confusing as none of the dimensions are matching..??
   Rich may be able to settle the correct dimension.

What might be going on here is; someone may have been in the clutch previously, changed the springs, and ruined the function of the slipper part of the clutch. 
If so, that might account for the spring/hub damage? {maybe}??

Do you know who had the bike before you?
Wondering if the previous owner was a drag racer??

In your dirtiest-oil, some of the pieces are clearly pink and yellow. It's obviously the paint from your springs.
Hopefully you have more paint in the oil than metal.

Worth a try; Send notes to the guys on this Forum that have parted out a C-14.
                     Hopefully one of them has a clutch he'll sell.
   
Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2018, 12:01:02 am »
I agree, something is wonky between our books... >:(

the last post I gave, on the probable discrepancies, are based on my manual, printed copy, first edition, for the 2008 model year, which was given to me directly from Kawasaki,  as the second printed copy in the USA when issued (the head of Kaw warranty/service has the first copy)

I have a version for '10 and up on another computer, I need to compare with that also...

what manual did you find the data in?

this spring is shown used on all C14's from '08 to present
and also on all Ninja ZX1400's from '12 to present.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...