Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Skidmark on November 25, 2018, 11:40:54 pm

Title: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 25, 2018, 11:40:54 pm
   Good evening riders!  that depends on your location.
  I have read through the cog forums from the time that I have owned this incredible machine for about a year and a half. I have currently encountered an issue with the bike that I am struggling with, and the source seems to be the best place to possibly find some input or solutions.  My 2011 abs model has been everything I wanted and has surpassed all expectations . But i was performing  an oil change and preparing for the cooler months, the oil appeared to have an incredible amount of very fine metal shavings in it.
   My lovely lady has roughly 18k, I have many of the service records from the past owner(he kept it in fantastic condition, the reason I bought it from him). I have maintained it beyond what most consider normal. I am a lifetime automotive mechanic, and this issue is getting me a bit scrambled. I have changed the oil 3 times now and no more than 130 miles have been ridden since the problem was first identified. I checked the oil last night and it is fogging up with tiny shavings again. the clutch cover and clutch plates are currently removed and I dont see any indications of damage or wear. Last week the valve cover was off and it didnt reveal anything either. please help I really need some time on it. Thanks
   The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 25, 2018, 11:42:32 pm
Sounds like something is wearing.
Is the metal aluminum or steel?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 26, 2018, 12:20:49 am
    I have inspected to oil, well at least to my ability. Initially I placed a fairly strong magnet in one of the samples, and yes there is magnetism in a small portion. the other seems to be very small and it is neutrally bouyant. If i shine a flashlight through the bottom of a clear cup, very little light can be seen in about an inch deep of the oil. On other posts Ive seen though the COG, I saw the bearing failure in the case, but there is no crazy noises while riding. I have been putting light miles on it to see if this problem will show itself a bit more prevealent.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 26, 2018, 12:34:18 am
Explain this statement a bit?
       very little light can be seen in about an inch deep of the oil.
If you saying very little light metal can be seen in about an inch deep of the oil, I think I'd ride it and keep an eye on it.

Why did you go into the clutch previously? perhaps slippage?
If so, may have material remaining in the case from that?

Ride safe, Ted


Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 26, 2018, 01:31:38 am
       I know, it is a bit odd to explain. I took a clear bottle and filled it from the oil that was in the motor, when I put a flashlight under the bottle(with roughly 1 inch of oil), very little light can be seen through the oil. I was trying to describe how much there actually is. I have seen similar samples of oil, say from a transfercase of a truck with four wheel drive. But that truck made a sound that was painful to hear. My lovely bike sounds like a symphony of mechanical music. Except for the 2 second cold start timing chain tensioner.
      I have monitored the oil since first noticed, I will stop and look through the site glass, and now its so concerning I dont dare ride. So I will keep as much info posted as possible until a conclusion is reached. thanks.... keep it uprite.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: cuda on November 26, 2018, 01:35:07 am
My early oil changes had a lot of metal, but with 18,000 you should be past the break in?
 I believe most are from the transmission.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MtnRider on November 26, 2018, 01:47:36 am
it sounds like you still have at least some of the oil. I suggest sending it off to one of the oil analysis places and they can tell you exactly what is in the oil.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Daytona_Mike on November 26, 2018, 01:48:41 am
Do we have a magnetic drain plug on our bikes?  If not then buy one or make it magnetic. I do it to all my vehicles.
I would send a sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis
They will be able to give a much better idea what and where this metal is coming from.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 26, 2018, 02:02:25 am
  Is there a kit that I can get for the lab test?  Have you used the lab test before?   
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 26, 2018, 02:12:20 am
  I do believe cuda is rite and it is from the trans. I was and am still hoping its a simple fix. It was a nice day to rack up some miles.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: cuda on November 26, 2018, 02:22:40 am
Blackstone will send you a free container, but if you call your local Catapiller dealer they should take care of it.

I believe it is the nature of the beast, don't get too worried.  ;)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 26, 2018, 02:48:03 am
   Thank you very much for that, Im  gonna gravitate in that direction on my next day off. The magnetic drain plug will be a must from this point on.


  I will continue my research and keep posted on the outcome. I just want her to be perfect. Thanks again, Im going to go tuck her in
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: IBAJIM on November 26, 2018, 02:01:09 pm
A oil analysis will tell you exactly what is going on.  I think it will be well worth the cost.

I have used Blackstone and Wix for my cars in the past.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 26, 2018, 02:18:05 pm
Remove the oil filter, cut the shell close to the base, cut the paper pleats from the core, lay it out and what do you see?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 26, 2018, 02:21:08 pm
I put a speaker magnet on the end of my oil filter.
Unlike the magnetic drain, I can't see how much metal it attracts, but I think the bigger magnet will attract more and keep them in the filter.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 26, 2018, 02:24:25 pm
Only if they get thru the oil pump.   :)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 26, 2018, 02:32:57 pm
Good point.. But, I still think it better.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Jim on November 26, 2018, 03:23:34 pm
When you said the oil was "fogging up" that made me think that what you're seeing is water in the oil, not metal shavings.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: strum on November 26, 2018, 05:42:18 pm
When you said the oil was "fogging up" that made me think that what you're seeing is water in the oil, not metal shavings.

short fire ups or around the block rides will cause the sight glass to look milky or foggy. It is usually condensed water in the oil that will disappear with a good at temperature ride.
 I have seen bubbles in the oil that made me think it was metal but to be sure i agree you need to have it analyzed. Cutting the filter apart should be your next step along with the analisis.  if you do cut the filer apart please post some pics for us. 
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Red Fox on November 26, 2018, 06:00:12 pm
I've a 2011 with 57,000 and have had a magnetic plug since 10,000.  Like you, 2 second rattle on start-up.  Change oil at 3 -4k intervals.  magnet plug picks up some black stuff, I wipe it on a white paper towel.  For last 1 1/2 yrs using Rotella 5w-40 from Walmart; like the way it feels when shifting. 

I wouldn't sweat your oil discovery.  On a car I once put a magnet on the end of oil filter, cut it open later and nada.  Total waste of my time. 

IMHO, just change the oil as often as you choose and ride it.  Consider riding this direction next summer; riding in the northwest generates fewer metal filings than riding in the rest of the country - or at least in the southwest!
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: TimR on November 26, 2018, 06:30:34 pm
If it is cold out side, it takes at least a good 15 miles to bring everything up to operating temp. Or so it seems.  Same thing happened to me when I first got my 09. I figured out real fast not to even start it unless I was going out for a ride. When I first got the bike friends would come over to see it and of course had to hear it run. Starting and running the motor long enough to cycle the fans on and off still wasn't getting the motor warmed up enough to take the condensation out. So I had a oil window that looked like it was making something.

Red Fox has some good idea's but I use regular motorcycle synthetic oil normally made by Valvoline.  I like the way the transmissions shifts too. He also suggests coming up here to ride. I would suggest hooking up with the S/W hoard that invades the Bun Cooler held the 3rd weekend in May. Takes place in Kamiah, ID which is at the foot of Lo Lo pass. You won't be disappointed.   

The first few oil changes in the final drive was interesting. The oil had what appeared to be metal flakes in it when drained. The pan would have spark lies in the oil. Turns out it was factory lube or something but it wasn't medal much to everyone's relief. it stopped showing up in the oi after about the third oil change for the final drive.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 27, 2018, 03:41:14 am
   Good evening fellas.

   The first time I saw the metal in the oil, I did remove the filter(K&N 303) and completely tore it down to see what could be found, and the largest piece I found was no bigger than maybe .010 of an inch. The metal is fine as powder. Last night with the clutch out, I did find some movement in the basket.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 27, 2018, 04:16:37 am
Did the paper element seem to have metal 'slime' on it after the oil drained from it?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 27, 2018, 06:18:35 am
    No it didnt.
in fact I am disappointed on how little I found in the filter compared to the oil.(probably due to transmission grinding into almost a powder) I wound love to send a picture, Im not very tech savvy with the pc and laptop, but will research and try. I have been reading the service manual and am unable to locate lateral tolerance for the clutch housing, seems to have more movement than it should as where the clutch hub is very tight.. thanks for all replies.  I think the speaker magnet idea is fantastic.

Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 27, 2018, 09:15:20 am
If there is next to no metal of any kind on the filter paper, what you are seeing in the oil ain't metal, may I suggest.

What lateral tolerance for the clutch housing are you specifically looking for - which 2 parts exactly.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 27, 2018, 05:59:05 pm
  Freddy, how are you doing ? Im losing a little sleep over this one.

   One to it then. The filter I torn down did in fact have metal debris in it without a doubt. I was able to scrape the shavings from the element, and just feel them between my fingers when rubbed together, but with the oil, I have let settle over night or even for several days, and run my finger through it and there is this trail pattern of shinny metal(kinda like them fancy coffee drinks with designs in them). I showed it to my neighbor, who has zero mechanical skill or knowledge, says " is that metal". I would like to mention how well engineered and well constructed the interior engine and trans are.

      The clutch housing, if I hold the entire clutch assembly with both hands and move it say up and down, there is a very little movement. I disassembled the housing last night and the needle bearing it rides upon looks good, as well does the shaft. the clutch friction plates appear to be ok, other that the reflective flakes on them.
      As a mechanic, I an certain if I continue to ride, the motor and or transmission will fail. " If man made it...... Man can fix it"
   
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: strum on November 27, 2018, 07:43:44 pm
Jason is there any warranty left on you bike?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 27, 2018, 07:56:16 pm
   No warranty, I bought from private owner.. I have lived here in Vegas on and off for about 6 years, and do not know any moto mechanics. The mechanics that I have encountered are not acceptable to be working on. I have split cases before on single cylinders, but I think that will be last resort.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on November 27, 2018, 08:07:27 pm
Got these pics from Jason. 
First is from the oil filter draining upside down for 4 days. 

Second pic is most recent oil in drain bucket with less than 100 miles.  The fourth oil change in 3 weeks.  Rotella T6 5w40
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Sailor_chic on November 27, 2018, 08:27:48 pm
Let Blackstone labs analyze it. That ends all speculation!
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on November 27, 2018, 08:32:02 pm
Let Blackstone labs analyze it. That ends all speculation!

I've used Blackstone many times in the past with my Autocross and track cars. They will send you a kit for free IIRC and then just do as the instructions says and you will get a comprehensive oil breakdown of the oil comp.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on November 27, 2018, 08:33:57 pm
Here ya go.
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/engine-types/motorcycle/ (https://www.blackstone-labs.com/engine-types/motorcycle/)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 27, 2018, 09:37:54 pm
That's a little 'clearer' now Jason, a first for the 1400 I think -sorry.

It's either aluminium or white-metal from the crankshaft bearings, probably the former but get it analysed as advised.  If there is no obvious wear/damage within the clutch assembly, then it becomes a deeper investigative process once you get the results back.

I've had the engine out of mine to split the case for another issue.  It's not hard but is time consuming and obviously requires some knowledge, skill and care.  Hopefully you don't need to go this deep.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/tranny-locked-up/50/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/tranny-locked-up/50/)

Best of luck with it. 
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 27, 2018, 10:03:40 pm
   Thanks for the link, I will most likely send in a sample. With the side covers off, I have inspected everything within range of a light and mirror, and nothing out of normal wear and tear. I have a bore scope at work Im headed to retrieve now. Sheez!!,,, crank bearings,very possible. I found that the water pump has just started to leak from weep hole. I am confident that we are close to a conclusion thanks to COG community.  Yes this is my first !400,, and first Kawasaki for that matter..I was able to solve 2 oil leaks previously from COG forums just recently.

   
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 27, 2018, 10:11:55 pm
I really don't think it would be crank bearings as it would almost certainly have seized or be making bad noises.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 27, 2018, 11:10:22 pm
after reading this completely, I have a couple comments.

First off, sending an oil sample to the lab, is great advice, and I highly recommend it just for your peace of mind.

at 18k miles on the bike, while technically 'broken in', some wear does still occur, and some sheen being seen in the oil is not really abnormal; but it's still something to watch... I don't think it will "explode" by any means, soon.
Often what is seen in pil, is what was noted, and can be confused with metal, when it is moisture, or even aeration occuring as a result of moisture and air, and this also does prevent it from looking 'clear', i.e. shining a light thru it. The light is diffused byt the micro-bubbles, which do act as a 'solid looking substance'.
 Personally, i am NOT a fan of magnetic drain plugs "generically", as many have compromised strength, by drilling into them axially, for placement of the magnetic 'slug', turning what was a solid plug, into a very thin walled tube, which when torqued to the same rating as the original bolt will snap off, and make for a painful removal process... I've removed a dozen or so broken mag plugs over the last 15 years. Even the best ones (Gold Plug), can fracture.. so I caution folks not to get "torquey" with any of them.

Besides a Mag Plug, do an online search for "strong, rare earth magnet" suppliers, you can purchase extremely powerful strong but small sized magnets, which when stuck to the "hex" of the drain bolt, will never be 'knocked off.. or lost" and it will give you a strong, non breaking, magnetic drain plug...

I do like the "speaker magnet" on the oil filter thing also, but in reality, and the way the C14 oil path flows.. anything found in the filter is microns.. (microscopic, and less than .001", if even that), because the oil pump "pickup" is pre screened thru a very fine mesh pre filter sitting in the pan area. There should NEVER be any "grit sized" metal in the filter, as it would be pre screened before it's pumped to the filter. If grit sized particulates are seen in the filter, it's coming from the oil pump to filter pathway. Not the pan.
If you have an FSM, read it closely, and note the oil passages, and oil routes, and will see clearly what I'm saying.
Mind you, micro particles do "bond and group" together in drained oil, so it seems like a lot when seen as a 'silvery sheen', but in realistic terms, there isn't much even tho it 'looks like it'. Filtering a sample, warmed and kept warm, thru 2 or 3 cone shaped coffee filters in a funnel, into a container, will show you 'really' how much was present... but that may take days to drain thru the paper filter media.Each filter will catch progressively more of the particles, and the bottom one should just be "oil wetted".  It's a cheap test you can do, I've done it many times...

Now, onto your recent discovery about a water pump seal... do a search and find where I gave the breakdown for the seals, and rebuilding the waterpump... it is owner doable, and saves big $$$..

best of luck, I say button it up, and ride it, while waiting for your return analysis from Blackstone labs...
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Old Man on a Connie on November 28, 2018, 01:08:34 am
Hey Jason, I'm in Hendo NV please feel free to reach out. I also have not had much luck with good local shops.  :'( The benefit of oil analysis (and I do it at work quarterly on our equipment) is building a trend. To watch if contaminants are increasing. They may be able to give you ISO ratings and material type but they won't be able to tell you where its coming from. Me thinks, and take it for what it's worth, with only 18k on the motor I suspect your still seeing shedding from break in. I have close to 70k on my 11 and I still get shines in the oil. I pour my oil through a rare earth mag grate and get a sludge sticking. That's the metallic microscopic particles bonding to the non magnetic spooge.   You mentioned a water pump leak. The water pump does have a oil weted end that may be a source. I have a spare that needs a reseal that MOB helped me out with spotting seals. And a way to change it out relatively easy. Your more than welcome to it. I'll give you the pump and help swap in exchange for a membership join (As an AD I have to do it  ;)). Otherwise I would agree, change the earl regularly and ride her until she explodes.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MtnRider on November 29, 2018, 07:49:04 pm
I just ordered the sample kit from Blackstone. I knew I liked these guys as soon as I read their FAQ. They've got a great sense of humor.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on November 30, 2018, 04:55:53 am
     Good evening to all.
    I do agree with mtnrider,,,its a good read on the faq...I have located my elusive problem!!! Thanks to all and everyone of theses replies. It must have been that lambo she was snacking on a couple of weeks ago up the canyon, and thats what remains......
    I know, I just had to say it. MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil.   I am going to sleep tonight,  oh yeah. Thanks all once again.

       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

       


Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on November 30, 2018, 09:34:18 am
     Good evening to all.
    I do agree with mtnrider,,,its a good read on the faq...I have located my elusive problem!!! Thanks to all and everyone of theses replies. It must have been that lambo she was snacking on a couple of weeks ago up the canyon, and thats what remains......
    I know, I just had to say it. MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil.   I am going to sleep tonight,  oh yeah. Thanks all once again.

       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

So I have to ask, how do the clutch basket damper springs get chewed on?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 30, 2018, 03:46:35 pm
Same question, and "why are yours wearing excessively and our's are not"..?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 30, 2018, 08:33:15 pm
Same question, and "why are yours wearing excessively and our's are not"..?

Ride safe, Ted

now I'm curious about some stuff also, like if what he is calling "damper springs" are which ones...
the Star springs? (4 in this engine), or the tension "pack assembly" springs and plates behind all this... ? I realize this clutch is twice as complex as a C10 slipper clutch, and all the parts in there do different tension functions... in conjunction the the slipper back torque cam, but nothing in there should be "wearing off metal", also during re-assembly, more care to which friction plates, and steel plates go where they should be, as there are mutiples of each, and they differ in configuration and correct location within the stack. I will say that as these engines go, there tends to be a lot of "shaving" in the grooves the friction plates radial "keys" ride in, and does result in some residue being present, which IS normal, thru out the complete life of the bike, even when the clutch is operating perfectly..

but without having these parts in front of me it's tough to say if anything really is worn, or amiss...
Without having a spare drive gear shaft, to assemble and inspect the whole thing on when it's out of the bike, it's a gamble on trying to pinpoint the assembly or if in fact something is amiss...
personally I would not have torn this all apart that far, and at this point I would look, but still clean everything up well, lubricate all the parts and plates with clean oil, and carefully reassemble it all back to "as built"...
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Old Man on a Connie on November 30, 2018, 10:23:21 pm
       Old man on connie,  I would like to contact you here before too long to discuss a few things if thats alright with you?? 

     You Bet.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on November 30, 2018, 10:29:17 pm
Jason, exactly which items(s) are you referring to?

http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone (http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone)

I can't see broken star springs 'creating' metal in the oil (which is what I was referring to in the pm).
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on November 30, 2018, 11:05:13 pm
Mebbe the 92145A ??

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on November 30, 2018, 11:36:33 pm
Mebbe the 92145A ??

Ride safe, Ted


thats the clamping assmebly I am asking about, there are a bunch of springs in that pack when assembled, it requires a special tool to compress the pack for disassembly, a kind of "tube" thing, used on a press.. to allow the removal of the bolts...

Jason, exactly which items(s) are you referring to?

[url]http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone[/url] ([url]http://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2012/zg1400-1400gtr-abs-k-act/clutch-1-2#ficheZone[/url])

I can't see broken star springs 'creating' metal in the oil (which is what I was referring to in the pm).


hmmm.. broken start springs, with parts broken off, will chew up aluminum and migrate around, chewing up everything they get pinched in between... so i cant agree with ya on that.  I can't say, waiting for his response, and maybe ....some photos......?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 01, 2018, 02:54:04 am
   Good evening folks,   Just getting home after normal !3 hour work days.
     The springs and the other parts that have been damaged are at the very back of the clutch, this componant holds all the other parts of the clutch,,some refer to it as a basket. There are actually three different parts of it that are riveted together. I dont recall an event that occured to cause this, and I have changed the oil several times prior to that discovery. does that help a little...and it doesnt happen very often,,,,at all..   
i have seen the damping springs on cars and trucks that were damaged, and from that the transmission was also damaged from those events. The ones I have encountered had many miles and very low maintenance.   does that describe it any better?       
P/N 13095
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 01, 2018, 03:13:51 am
  I do apologize for my inconsistant updates and replies, and for that matter lack of photos.. I would say this would be the first time using PC for communication of this nature,,,,yep first forum,,,,ever.  If you wonderful folks can be patient with me, I will learn accordingly.  ..I say that being that this Concours is,,,,well,,,,A kick a** machine!!!!
It is one of those rare items in life I have found, that performs well above what was and is presumed,,,and for the most part very well behaved and lazer focused. We get along very well.

Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on December 01, 2018, 11:10:07 am
13095 eh Jason?  Well that's a first.  Thanks for the clarification.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: SidehackV45 on December 01, 2018, 01:49:02 pm
Hmmmm... the P/N the gentleman is referring to is the 13095-0083, clutch housing, complete as per the parts fiche. The springs aren't replaceable, at least not by individual sourcing and installing, like the other clutch springs, that are felt as resistance when the clutch lever is actuated. I have never, ever seen these damper springs "damaged" on any motorcycle I've ever worked on. These springs, generally, aren't tight in those locations they inhabit, they move around a bit. And if you say they're chewed up, well, I have to believe you, but if you're seeing debris on and around them and assuming that's spring material, it may not be. Might simply be paint. Yep, paint.

I had similar issues with my Nomad 1600, but with the clutch pack springs (not the released disk spring, but the actual pack springs) which were painted a white color at manufacturing and eventually, this paint came off. Left exactly the debris floating in oil situation the writer depicts in his photos. I am unsure, but it's likely these damper springs, perhaps the housing itself, may have been painted, just some spot painting usually, as an aid to identification during the assembly process at the factory. It's usually a very thin shot of some sort of color, and after time, eventually comes off.

I'd really like to see a photo(s) of the damaged springs, but if that's the problem, it's a great find and my commendations. That'd be a first I've ever heard of those springs doing that on any bike, however. Certainly possible, however.

TB
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 01, 2018, 02:25:07 pm
Somewhere (probably in this Forum) someone (I think Steve) described how this slipper clutch operates.
Seems that I recall that it has to be installed a certain way to operate correctly.
Maybe this one was installed incorrectly?

Yes, I know that's vague. Hoping someone will recall the discussion?
   I'll try to find the discussion.

Ride safe, Ted

Update: I found it!
            Lots of good information, but it doesn't discuss the springs Jason is describing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVKQVembC7A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVKQVembC7A)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: AmphibSailor on December 01, 2018, 02:38:57 pm
Ted, was Steve's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVKQVembC7A)? what you were talking about?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 01, 2018, 02:56:57 pm
Arrghh, ya beat me to it.  :-[
  {Guess I spent too long looking at the video...}  :truce:

Thanx; Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 01, 2018, 08:39:01 pm
see what I mean about "mis named" parts?,  :rotflmao:

when the "damper" thing was being tossed around, I needed clarification, as there is truely a "damper assembly" behind all that...
The actual clutch "basket" with non replaceable springs, which act to absorb some "shudder" in the clutch actuation, does somewhat have a bit of loosness, but this is all controlled by the combination of the splines on the steel plates, and the inner basket hub, and also the external "tabs" on the friction plates, which I eluded to prior as a pint where "some metal gets scrubbed off"...

the rotation of the basket, and everything inside, is explained, and a rotational limit is given, in the FSM, but again as I noted, it's inspected out of the bike, on a spare gear shaft, which is held in a vice....

I've attached that page for reference... even tho I would be hardpressed to think that with the miles on this bike, there is any actual measurable wear, of the clutch, or other parts, to create an out of spec reading....

read the attached.

NOTE;
edited to remove the file showing the procedure, as I'm told it violates "rule 15"
sorry... buy a FSM folks.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 01, 2018, 08:44:01 pm
I'll also comment on the basket... I serviced probably 75 complete clutch re-furbs, on various Japanese machines, and have always found the springs in these baskets loose enough to rattle when in place, and the basket its "tapped on"...

so don't sweat this... you are being a bit over worried about a normal condition, which is stemming from seeing some sheen in your oil, on a bike with LOW miles...

clean everything up, re-oil the plates, re-assemble it all, fill with fresh oil and new filter.... and ride it. :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Freddy on December 01, 2018, 08:49:31 pm
agreed MOB.  In the op's defence, those springs do provide a dampening effect between the crankshaft and transmission.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 01, 2018, 09:17:33 pm
agreed MOB.  In the op's defence, those springs do provide a dampening effect between the crankshaft and transmission.   :beerchug:

yes, but in a minimal fashion, and they have no real "drive" dampening per-se, they are simply to reduce clutch "shudder"... this same setup is found on almost all, if not all, automotive clutch friction plates...  and they all rattle.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :great:

as I said, there IS a very robust "dampener assembly" that does the actual "clutch/drive" dampening, and assists for the slipper function... and it and all it's parts are called "dampener parts".
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Old Man on a Connie on December 02, 2018, 12:36:36 am
ahhhh for the wicked rattle of a dry clutch at a stop light.  ;)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 02, 2018, 01:22:59 am
    Yeah it is a bit unusual, it was just recently that I could hear a slight grumble at idle, pull clutch in and it would quiet up.   Any suggestions on locating one that isnt from kawi??? They want my first born for a new one
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 02, 2018, 11:44:46 am
Partzilla is quite competitive on pricing.  https://www.partzilla.com/product/kawasaki/13095-0084?ref=f2334bf114f2193886bef9dc6f99371fd455217a (https://www.partzilla.com/product/kawasaki/13095-0084?ref=f2334bf114f2193886bef9dc6f99371fd455217a)

List $492.68   23% OFF
Partzilla $381.09
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 02, 2018, 03:39:39 pm
Jason, you've never said why you were initially working on the clutch, and why you suspect the metal shavings are from the clutch?
        And, I don't know if you said the shavings are steel or aluminum?
To me, the springs you've found would not make the shavings you are seeing.
           The images of metal in your oil, appear to be more like wear from a rubbing surface.

For instance: On the C-10's we saw similar indications when a tensioner on the internal chains failed and allowed the chain to rub against the case.

Not certain that a ZX and Connie use the same clutch{?}, but,,, here is an option if "yes".
{I found 4 of these}
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 02, 2018, 05:41:19 pm
     Good morning fellas,
        Thank you for the links, I like those prices better than the 500ish from kawi. Connie rider you are correct, I have found that in the clutch housing, the springs that are on the back have had what appears to be an impact, and have worn into the housing and several of the springs have significant wear(flat spots on the springs themselves) MOB mentioned the oil passages, and that took me in the direction of easier covers and cases, hoses pipes, screens that the oil is distributed. I initially wanted to inspect the oil pump, and removed it and saw it was banged up, its direct neighbor is the clutch housing. Looking over the parts removed(with 3 sets of reading glasses stacked on my face) there is more than just normal wear and tear. As sturdy as this engine is built, I think it will give me some good rides for a while. Upon inspection of the clutch springs. they do appear to be short. does anyone know the free length measurement?? that is the springs for the friction plates
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 02, 2018, 07:38:12 pm
I don't think you are grasping the parts about "even tho you may think the springs in the basket are an issue, Visually they don't matter.."
and unless the assembly is inspected as per the FSM, replacement of that part only, is an expensive guess, and bandaid approach.


Now, the SPRINGS...
again, decoding what you may be asking, and I assume about friction plate springs...

the outer pressure plate, which is called "spring plate" in manual, is
p/n 13187-0012   PLATe,CLUTCH
OPERATING
   
the 6 outer springs, that compress the outer pressure plate against the stack, are
p/n 92145-0440   SPRING,15X2.7   6

these are the only springs that have a wear/dimension associated with them, for inspection...as follows.

Clutch Spring Free Length
Standard: 65.0 mm (2.56 in.)
Service Limit: 62.0 mm (2.44 in.)

NOTE;
I've lined this out for now, see post #70 about discrepancies in manual...


note: this dimension applies only to OEM springs, aftermarket springs may, and likely WILL differ, and in reality "free length" is not a good means of measurement, springs should have a "X pound/kg @ X length" measurement... so any aftermarket spring can't really be trusted to be equivilant.

no OTHER spring inspections are noted for anything else, other than the Basket Rotation, as I noted, and in the means I noted on the attached page I referenced prior...
So buying a basket, without seeing if the one you have is out of spec, is a waste of effort.

the other parts below, I'm tossing in, just because I have no life, and to toss them out there for other future use...

the 12 springs that live between the 2 pressure plates, in the dampener mechanism are
p/n    92145-0537   SPRING   12

the torque limiter springs, which we call "star springs", 4 total, 2 of each are
p/n 39130-1078   SPRING-LEAF   2
and 39130-1079   SPRING-LEAF   2

the basket is
p/n 13095-0084 HOUSING-COMP-CLUTCH

the clutch hub, which sits in the basket is
p/n 13087-0044   HUB-CLUTCH,FIXED   

the clutch sub hub, which sits inside the clutch hub, and has pressure placed on it from the "dampner assembly" from behind, is
p/n 13087-0038   HUB-CLUTCH,MOVABLE

also note, the "sub clutch hub" moves axially within the fixed clutch hub, and is restricted from rotation by the system of radial splines that interface... these also can wear slightly, over time, and produce micro particles of "shiny" stuff...   
   
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 02, 2018, 07:50:43 pm

Not certain that a ZX and Connie use the same clutch{?}, but,,, here is an option if "yes".
{I found 4 of these}
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Kawasaki-Zx1400-Clutch-Basket-Discs-Plates-Springs-etc-Assy/183155863192?hash=item2aa4f0ae98:rk:5:pf:0)

Ride safe, Ted


NOPE.... totally different clutch.... not the same at all....  :-X :-[ :-[ ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 02, 2018, 08:44:27 pm
Jason, you've never said why you were initially working on the clutch, and why you suspect the metal shavings are from the clutch?
        And, I don't know if you said the shavings are steel or aluminum?
To me, the springs you've found would not make the shavings you are seeing.
           The images of metal in your oil, appear to be more like wear from a rubbing surface.

.....

he took what I was saying about grit in a FILTER, way past the intent of the explanation...

after reading this completely, I have a couple comments.

......
at 18k miles on the bike, while technically 'broken in', some wear does still occur, and some sheen being seen in the oil is not really abnormal; but it's still something to watch... I don't think it will "explode" by any means, soon.......

.. anything found in the filter is microns.. (microscopic, and less than .001", if even that), because the oil pump "pickup" is pre screened thru a very fine mesh pre filter sitting in the pan area. There should NEVER be any "grit sized" metal in the filter, as it would be pre screened before it's pumped to the filter. If grit sized particulates are seen in the filter, it's coming from the oil pump to filter pathway. Not the pan......

If you have an FSM, read it closely, and note the oil passages, and oil routes, and will see clearly what I'm saying.
.....

and then went on a venture off tangent to explore... but I at that point began to disagree with effectivity of this exploration...

    ....... MOB mentioned the oil routing, so thats were I went and just followed the damaged trail, the clutch basket damper springs, and what they are housed in are chewed up enough to see exactly what has been in the oil. ....
     

then, it snowballed and turned into what he believes is the cause, which again, I tend to disagree on, after many "post mortem's" on clutches in my life...

whatever works tho, if replacing parts "cures it", all is good... but how much $ and how much time and miles needed to say "it worked" is considered, it's a longshot.

even then, new parts will still require completely starting from scratch, and assembling it, and inspecting it for "in spec", on a drive gear shaft, off the bike...
as explained in the attachment below...again,

NOTE;
edited to remove the file showing the procedure, as I'm told it violates "rule 15"
sorry... buy a FSM folks.

 :'(
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: SidehackV45 on December 03, 2018, 09:50:56 am
(https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/JohnnyCharger1968/Emoticons/ThisThreadIsWorthlessWithoutPics.gif)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 04, 2018, 06:51:03 pm
Here's the pics guys!  Posting this link to a google photos folder so that the pics don't have to be compressed.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRrv4wtryBP7WXWL8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRrv4wtryBP7WXWL8)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Mettler1 on December 04, 2018, 08:36:16 pm
 Don't know what to say but that looks ugly! ::)
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 04, 2018, 09:04:30 pm
Don't know what to say but that looks ugly! ::)
No warm and fuzzy in those pics. 
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 04, 2018, 09:12:13 pm
    Thanks to a very helpful, friendly, fellow COGer, Now there is some more clarification visually. The 3 containers side by side, are. 
 1- new oil,    right out of container.
 2- the second oil change that was drained after the initial find. in which was 10 minutes of idle time only.
 3- less than 80 miles of actual ride time.
   I inquired about the clutch springs for the friction plates, due to what specs I have found, are much shorter than that. mine measure at 1.42 in.
   For the springs on the back side of the basket, I do know that they arent serviceable(I had to try)
   The pics of the white line mark on the back of basket(housing). is how much movement there is in that assembly without any other parts in it, no hub or plates.
   From the look of the oil pump, well there is some damage throughout........soooooo thats where I am currently at
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 04, 2018, 10:17:46 pm
I have to apologize for the spec on the spring length I quoted, as I am questioning my manual right now;
Originally, I gave a figure, that was in the pages showing a longer length, so now I have to question if that spec was actually for the friction plate springs (the 6 outer ones), or in reality the damper springs (12 sandwiched in the damper)...page 6-20 the book is very lacking on that,
 But, from the table in the front of the section, on measurements, (page 6-4) they show clutch springs differently...
Clutch Spring Free Length 41.6 mm (1.64 in.)normal.... replace at 40.1 mm (1.58 in.)

as for the "white marks/allignment" on the back of the rotating section of the basket, it's not the rotation that is being measured there... it's how much the assembled stack and guts, when mounted on the shaft, 'move/raise' the stack, as a min/max measurement when that rotation of the cam, and everything is rotated... the stack lift (measured on the center surface of the outer pressure plate) should fall between 0.002 ∼ 0.028 in

To measure the free play, set a dial gauge against the raised center of the clutch spring plate.
Move the clutch housing gear back and forth . The difference between the highest and lowest gauge readings is the amount of free play.
Spring Plate Free Play
Usable Range: 0.05 ∼ 0.70 mm (0.002 ∼ 0.028 in.)
If the free play is not within the usable range, change all
of the friction plate and measure the free play again.
If the free play is not within the usable range, adjust the
free play ( by replacing steel plates in the stack).
As outlined in the FSM

I was asked to remove the page I posted, so all I can do is 'verbally' explain that.

the chewed up spots you showed, don't look 'good', but I've seen worse, and I'd suggest you show those pics to a "certified Kawasaki Service Technician" for their opinions...
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 04, 2018, 10:30:47 pm
So what happened to bring all of this on?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 04, 2018, 10:45:34 pm
   I do spend an incredible amount of time with the bike and I was doing some polishing, It had occured  to me that it had been over 2000 miles since last oil change, and that had been through some hot days. I  drained the oil and that was the beginning of this adventure.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 04, 2018, 11:10:23 pm
Jason; the pictures helped clarify what you've been talking about.

Did you watch Steve's video on the slipper clutch?
In it, he points out that everything has to be right for the slipper clutch to operate correctly.
He also mentioned that he tried a non slipper in his C-10 and removed it immediately...

By the way; Do you have a Shop manual??? If no. Get 1 now..
    In my service manual {pages 6-4 and 6-20} it says that the clutch springs are supposed to be 32.11 mm / 1.264" with
           a service limit of 31.00 mm / 1.22".
    Rich say's his manual specifies "Clutch Spring Free Length 41.6 mm (1.64 in.)normal.  replace at 40.1 mm (1.58 in.)".
    You said yours are 1.42"??

Definitely confusing as none of the dimensions are matching..??
   Rich may be able to settle the correct dimension.

What might be going on here is; someone may have been in the clutch previously, changed the springs, and ruined the function of the slipper part of the clutch. 
If so, that might account for the spring/hub damage? {maybe}??

Do you know who had the bike before you?
Wondering if the previous owner was a drag racer??

In your dirtiest-oil, some of the pieces are clearly pink and yellow. It's obviously the paint from your springs.
Hopefully you have more paint in the oil than metal.

Worth a try; Send notes to the guys on this Forum that have parted out a C-14.
                     Hopefully one of them has a clutch he'll sell.
   
Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 05, 2018, 12:01:02 am
I agree, something is wonky between our books... >:(

the last post I gave, on the probable discrepancies, are based on my manual, printed copy, first edition, for the 2008 model year, which was given to me directly from Kawasaki,  as the second printed copy in the USA when issued (the head of Kaw warranty/service has the first copy)

I have a version for '10 and up on another computer, I need to compare with that also...

what manual did you find the data in?

this spring is shown used on all C14's from '08 to present
and also on all Ninja ZX1400's from '12 to present.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 05, 2018, 12:38:26 am
My manual is the 3rd Edition. {April 2011}

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 05, 2018, 01:21:02 am
  The specs that I initially found were in an online manual, in which I downloaded. I had found different specs in the manual and was a bit confused. I went to a zx14 forum, and it wasnt even close to the ones in the manual. now its really confusing.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 05, 2018, 01:22:22 am
hmm....

after Ted and I were just chattin' on the phone,(don't worry, we do it all the time..) we both think there were some other issues ...

i.e., previous owner, and what transpired in their possession...  :-X :-X :o :o :o

don't worry, we both are trying to recreate the scenario, and cause, but between the two of us, and you, we think there were some "hidden issues" prior to your purchase, which we both feel bad about... lets see some pictures of the engine case, behind where the basket resides, with the basket removed... we are both wanting to know what rubbed those springs enough to make the wear spots on the coils... something was in there for sure, and could be seen as some damage or something, on the cases from something behind the basket at some point in time.

Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 05, 2018, 01:26:09 am
  The specs that I initially found were in an online manual, in which I downloaded. I had found different specs in the manual and was a bit confused. I went to a zx14 forum, and it wasnt even close to the ones in the manual. now its really confusing.

ZX forum ain't Concours.. prior to 2012, the clutch was different...

just saying... you get what you pay for, when it's "free"... the "online manual" is mystical also, as we don't know it's origin, or content.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 05, 2018, 06:55:33 am
            I do agree with you 100 percent and more, yeah free things do come with a price that can be random at best. The manual claims to be 1st edition June 2007. I skimmed through it, and it has some info that's usefull. I do enjoy digging through it, well it is bike porn one way or another. I am utterly grateful that there are able and intelligent minds on this, and thank the devoted much so. I will take some pics when I return home from the day and get them posted ASAP. If there are other places you might need to see, just let me know, I will keep an eye on my phone if there are any questions. Yes, i do believe my hare 1.42 inch free length
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 05, 2018, 01:32:27 pm
Jason, I wouldn't be so sure about the intelligent minds part of your statement.
                 After all; MOB's mind is involved... <evil grin>   >:D

I know as a mechanic you can look your engine over and determine if someone was in it {prior to you}.
While looking, try to determine how far they went into the engine. {ie; Clutch cover or more?}
That answer is pretty important in determining what's going on here.

If the face surfaces are flat/unworn, I'm not too concerned with the wear I see in the gear roots of pump.
Other than wondering what caused it?

Your springs may be aftermarket, or Someone may have simply installed the incorrect springs.
If so, they are probably different dimensions than stockers..
If stiffer {or softer} , the slipper part of the clutch may not have been working correctly.
Can you measure the length and Mic the wire size of your springs?
We can them compare your numbers with correct spring dimensions.
That is; We can compare, {If we ever determine the correct/stock spring dimensions}..

In some of your photo's I can see flat/wear spots on the side of one of the damper springs.
It appears that this spring was dragging on something.
Look at the area {below that spring} and see if you can see what it was hitting.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Does anyone reading this have a spare clutch of clutch springs?
       If yes, can you check the spring dimensions and let us know?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 05, 2018, 09:07:32 pm
           .... The manual claims to be 1st edition June 2007. I skimmed through it, and it has some info that's usefull.......Yes, i do believe my hare 1.42 inch free length

I looked thru the online one you may have, and it's the same edition of my Hard copy, and the PDF version I have...

so, look closer, skimming over stuff you need answered was there; as the numbers I quoted (and also we find may be erroneous), would be on pages 308 and 324 of what you have...

still would like to see engine case picture of area behind the basket, to ascertain what rubbed the springs, and also need an accurate measurement of your pressure plate springs, and real measurement for the OEM spring.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 06, 2018, 09:51:13 am
Well good evening cog detectives, and apparent many readers.
     Very good, up first the spring measurements,  the diameter of the friction plate springs .112 inch average. The  friction plate springs free length 1.285 average. I havent removed the center springs for measurement,, yet. That may be due to to my findings tonight, and assumptions, something I don't like to do. But, as you pointed out the mechanic thing,(this is the part I have sent to the back of my mind in denial) I will mention that there has been quite a bit of time in body shops too, from what I can observe, yeah some jacka#* has been in there. Even high quality tools will leave some type of markings, there is lots of that throughout , internally and externally. Factory quality control paint marks are missing or don't align. the guy I purchased the bike from, well he did have the gearhead  spirit, so I'm not yet ready to go there. I know that he had taken the bike to the dealer quite often for various services, and I do have those records. I will go through them again to see what is there. I think they might have goofed up and well  I seem to be a bit SOL. So I.will.post pics tomorrow of some that I have found. And im gonna take a time out, this is in its 5 th week,.everyday, I'm worn down and feel  bummed. The bike will have to sit,sorry folks  I'm really bummed on this one. , thanks all  G nite.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 06, 2018, 03:54:32 pm
The good news in your post is; I know that he had taken the bike to the dealer quite often for various services..
ie; You don't have to dig thru the papers you have, just go to any Kawasaki shop and they can check the history of the work done on that bike, on their computer.

Next; The bike is running good, no noises, and you've located where some metal is coming from, may find another source when you see what that spring was dragging on, know that a lot of you particles in your oil are paint particles from the spring, and suspect other particles may have come from work done on the engine previously..

Bottom line; I think all your going to have to do is find a used clutch and install it.
                   & I'm certain that someone on the COGdom has such a clutch.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 06, 2018, 06:00:30 pm
Hate to bust your bubble Ted, but I got a text from Jason today stating that most lower bolts on the engine had been touched before.  He found metal and unknown stuff in the coolant.  The timing chain has been chewed on by something.  That should give everyone something to think about for a while.  I'm still wondering if something didn't fall down into the engine from the top and start a destructive chain of events.  IIRC there were no complaints about how the engine ran and how the transmission shifted.  That seems like it should give him a bit of hope that this will work out OK.  Going to try to stay up later than usual to get some pics uploaded.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 06, 2018, 06:10:30 pm
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 06, 2018, 06:49:22 pm
Quote
On other posts I've seen though the COG, I saw the bearing failure in the case, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
Think he was talking about bearing failure he had seen on other posts. 
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 06, 2018, 08:28:59 pm
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted

his comment on "bearing" thing, was way back in time, and prior to any other discovery;
he only was referencing something he read, about a totally different scenario...
"The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.
"
no, on to the meat and potato salad...

well Ted, how far off was what I said the other night, when we talked on the phone....? eh?
I'm not a betting man, but I would lay big odds that under close examination, of the bolts, and case split seams, that these cases in fact were split, at least once...

To enlighten, I'll explain to y'all;
I told Ted, and this seems to be coming to light now, that IMHO, the previous owner hammered this bike relentlessly... and at some point, had a catastrophic failure in the transmission.... blew up a gear.... we'eve seen this occur a half dozen times so far....
When he fractured the gear, and pieces migrated, it created a whole panacea of issues... this iMHO again, is where a lot of the metal, and destruction downstream resultant is being seen... facts like all these bolts on the bottom end have been removed, and replaced, wear on the backside of the basket springs from foreign object, various metal particles at various areas of the bike's engine, where stuff migrated, and how the clutch basket got chewed up... like when the tranny locked up, and one by one the gear teeth where breaking off, it was hammering the clutch basket..and the damper springs chewed into the basket...... and as a result during the process, after the tranny gears were "repaired", likely the clutch plates were ruined also... so we really don't know if they used OEM plates, or aftermarket (like Barnett or other), also in the process, the pressure plate springs, were replaced, and it doesn't sound like they are the OEM ones either by his measurements.(if they really are .112" wire, they ain't stock, stock ones were 2.7mm/.106" wire, at least that is what is describes from the part number description from Kaw..
Now, older comments about finding particulate matter in the actual oil filter, and the scarring in the oil pump, (remember I noted there was a pre-filter screen on the pump uptake side?), may be caused because during the exploded gear syndrome, that screen sieve was damaged... and sucked metal pices up... but during the "repair process" that screen assembly was replaced, because it was likely damaged also...

so Ted can attest that I predicted on our phone call,night before last, that this bike had a major catastrophic gear/tranny event, I know it seams hard to understand how this all can be gleaned from afar, on the net, without seeing the bike; but everything that is being discovered, and noted as observed here really points to it.

sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike....
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 06, 2018, 10:44:42 pm
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted

his comment on "bearing" thing, was way back in time, and prior to any other discovery;
he only was referencing something he read, about a totally different scenario...
"The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.
"
no, on to the meat and potato salad...

well Ted, how far off was what I said the other night, when we talked on the phone....? eh?
I'm not a betting man, but I would lay big odds that under close examination, of the bolts, and case split seams, that these cases in fact were split, at least once...

To enlighten, I'll explain to y'all;
I told Ted, and this seems to be coming to light now, that IMHO, the previous owner hammered this bike relentlessly... and at some point, had a catastrophic failure in the transmission.... blew up a gear.... we'eve seen this occur a half dozen times so far....
When he fractured the gear, and pieces migrated, it created a whole panacea of issues... this iMHO again, is where a lot of the metal, and destruction downstream resultant is being seen... facts like all these bolts on the bottom end have been removed, and replaced, wear on the backside of the basket springs from foreign object, various metal particles at various areas of the bike's engine, where stuff migrated, and how the clutch basket got chewed up... like when the tranny locked up, and one by one the gear teeth where breaking off, it was hammering the clutch basket..and the damper springs chewed into the basket...... and as a result during the process, after the tranny gears were "repaired", likely the clutch plates were ruined also... so we really don't know if they used OEM plates, or aftermarket (like Barnett or other), also in the process, the pressure plate springs, were replaced, and it doesn't sound like they are the OEM ones either by his measurements.(if they really are .112" wire, they ain't stock, stock ones were 2.7mm/.106" wire, at least that is what is describes from the part number description from Kaw..
Now, older comments about finding particulate matter in the actual oil filter, and the scarring in the oil pump, (remember I noted there was a pre-filter screen on the pump uptake side?), may be caused because during the exploded gear syndrome, that screen sieve was damaged... and sucked metal pices up... but during the "repair process" that screen assembly was replaced, because it was likely damaged also...

so Ted can attest that I predicted on our phone call,night before last, that this bike had a major catastrophic gear/tranny event, I know it seams hard to understand how this all can be gleaned from afar, on the net, without seeing the bike; but everything that is being discovered, and noted as observed here really points to it.

sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike....
What should he do now?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 06, 2018, 11:42:42 pm
MOB knows more about a gear incident that I so I'll let him go on beyond my thoughts.

Here is my modified thought; As he said, the bike is running good, no noises. He's located where some metal is coming from, may find another source when he see's what that spring was dragging on, find what the timing chain is wearing against, he know's that a lot of you particles in your oil are paint particles from the spring, and suspect other particles may have come from work done on the engine previously..

Bottom line; I think he needs to {find out from Kawasaki; what was done and when, and "is that work in warranty"}.  After that, find/repair whatever the timing chain is hitting, investigate for other items, flush out all he can, then find a used clutch and install it .
                   & I'm certain that someone on the COGdom has such a clutch.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 07, 2018, 01:08:56 am

What should he do now?


rebuild it (clutch assembly) to factory per the FSM... ebay clutch packs excluded, as there is no history on what you by from e-bay...just like the bike here, we are attempting to assist on.

if this was on my lift, in my garage, I could ascertain a solution, and give a $$$ figure.. right now, all i can say is its's a cluster#%*$
with a high price tag

again, sorry.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 08, 2018, 04:52:41 pm
Well when it rains it pours.  Talked to Jason this morning for a few minutes.  His computer seems to be having hard drive issues, so when I get an address, I'm going to send him an old laptop to get him back online again.  One way or another, we'll get there.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 14, 2018, 06:28:21 am
   Hello all COG folks
     I have been able to sneak on a friends computer for a minute, so I will give you a brief update. Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces. I sat back and the coolant I had drained from the system looked to have a unusual appearance, and upon a closer inspection, there is similar metal particles in the cooling system, and I can see that its enough where I do believe the life expectancy of the engine will be rather short. So I am at a slight impass of to continue tearing it down or run her till it just wears itself out. The more I look the more things I really do want to find. Bud has been helping me with the pics and has been good to talk to, I believe he sent a computer, so I should be up and running soon. I am very grateful for all the help and insights, and time doing research. Any ideas at this time are good ones. thanks again all and have a good evening.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2018, 01:55:49 pm
At this point, you can't just ride it as it is.
You have to find out what the clutch and the timing chain are rubbing against. {And determine why their rubbing}
As far as the particles in the water,,, not sure which way to go.
Are you seeing any signs of water in the oil?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 14, 2018, 05:30:19 pm
Found the previous owner info on the Kaw site and reached out to him.  PO bought Jason's bike new.  Had a valve cover replaced as well as the fuel injector harness and tire monitor sensors.  No abuse.  Mentioned that he had posted on here about not firing on all cylinders (fuel injector harness).  Had a good chat....nice guy!  He may chime in at some point.  Jason should have a laptop today so hopefully we'll get back to posting more pics soon.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Gary on December 14, 2018, 07:50:57 pm
Good afternoon....as Bud mentioned, he spoke with the original / previous owner....me. Sorry to hear about Jason's recent issues with the bike.  No idea of the cause. Here is a brief history of the bike, as I recall.

Purchased new May 2011, break in per manual, fluid changes at 600 miles.  Around a month later, bike went to Carter Powersports for 30-40 days with engine misfire. They were baffled, even flew in a Kaw technician.  One of the the techs  was fiddling with the bike and bumped a wire, tada, engine ran great. Loose harness wire, replaced harness, all good.

A few months later, TPMS failed, dealer did not have part. Changed tires around 7000 miles, still no TPMS available, so I just ran without, like every other bike I owned. No big deal.

Small oil leak developed, dealer replaced valve cover, if I recall. One recall for a brake rod. Regular oil and filter changes throughout under protection plan.  15,000 mile service done at 12,000 miles under service plan before it expired.

That is the history, mechanically. I have no knowledge of engine or tranny case being opened, unless the dealer or factory tech did so during the misfire research. But, again, I have no specific knowledge of that occurring.

Tipped the bike over once at a dealership at a couple MPH, shut off engine a few seconds after my little tuck and roll off the bike. Embarrassing, folks at the dealership watching.... Showed the minor rash on right front fairing to Jason.

Bike was never road or drag raced,  never used as commuter.  It did hit around d 142 or so MPH for a brief stint between Shoshone CA and Pahrump NV because the road was there, smooth, and great sight lines.  Hit 135 once when my brother opened up his BMW LT and pride demanded I not allow the BMW bragging rights.  Otherwise, the bike cruised backroads, and occasionally the unfortunate freeway, in NV, AZ, UT and CA, running between 30 and 80 MPH.  The bike was used for touring, seeing my desert.

It was never beat on, I am sympathetic towards all of my rigs, off road vehicles and on road. They have to bring me back from where I explore. And 90% of my bike time is alone, and I was cognizant of the need to keep the equipment healthy so I stayed healthy and alive.

So, that is the little history of my time with the bike. It was a great experience, mostly trouble free.

Thanks, Gary
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Gary on December 14, 2018, 08:14:11 pm
Me again...forgot to mention...

Somebody said above, "sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike...."

Yep, there is a reason I sold it...not ditched.   I pretty much stopped riding it but a couple hundred miles per year.  I travel for four to six months at a time for business, and the bike was too nice to allow to age without use.  That is the only reason.

Thanks, Gary
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2018, 08:20:43 pm
Thanks Gary. Your input was appreciated.
Kinda blows the theory that someone was in it or something broke previously.

Do you have any thoughts on it?

Ride safe, Ted

Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Gary on December 14, 2018, 08:25:22 pm
Hi Ted...I have no idea why Jason has a problem now.  I was surprised when Bud explained what is occurring.  It makes no sense based on my experience with the bike.

Thanks, Gary
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 14, 2018, 09:46:58 pm
Me again...forgot to mention...

Somebody said above, "sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike...."

Yep, there is a reason I sold it...not ditched.   I pretty much stopped riding it but a couple hundred miles per year.  I travel for four to six months at a time for business, and the bike was too nice to allow to age without use.  That is the only reason.

Thanks, Gary

Thank you for supplying some feedback,
and I will admit, yes, that was me that made the comment; Please accept my appology, but my comment was made based on only the facts that were provided prior to you explaining. As a person that has kept his fingers on the pulse of this bike mechanically since it reached the shores of the U.S.A., and have always read and responded to issues that arise in all tech/mech issues, to date I have never seen a laundry list of specific findings of metal particulate matter, being found in so many segregated areas of the bike (i.e., oil, and also coolant). I hope you understand my aprehension, and commentary of suspecting something was amiss, based on the number of findings the current owner posted, and how difficult it is to "propose what really happened" over the internet, without seeing the bike, and doing the wrench work myself, to examine it.

So, again, I'm sorry for the comment, but I think if you were going thru what he is right now, you would have mixed emotions also.

at this point, I just don't know what to say to the owner.   :truce: :truce: :truce:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Gary on December 14, 2018, 10:22:20 pm
No worries, I have read your material over the years and recognize your C14 knowledge is far greater than mine, and certainly more helpful.  All good here!
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 14, 2018, 11:20:51 pm
At this point, I just don't know what to say to the owner.   :truce: :truce: :truce:

I do. See post 80, 83, 89, and 93.
           Then go from there….   
ie; Start with what you know, investigate why it's happening, and repair as needed.
                       ;)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 15, 2018, 06:05:05 am
     Good evening to all.
I did hope that some day I would meet with Gary again to thank him for the bike, and how he kept it, this wasn't the scenario I was thinking of. Thanks Gary for your input and response.Now to the bike. The springs on the backside of the housing(basket), the ones that are in the pics,well I don't see any where on the case or bearing that has made any contact with them. I do think that the event or impact that caused the damage at the spring ends made more space between the landings, that the springs shifted back and forth to cause the flat spots on them,  If you look in the pics( I tried to capture it), behind the springs on the aluminum backing, there is worn down spots where the springs lay. I do agree with the replacement of that housing. The friction plates thickness measurements are that of being new or just wearing in, I don't think there is too much of a problem using them. The steel plates do have odd patterns on them, it looks like over spray from paint is the only way to describe. The spring free length on those springs are unknown, there wasn't any slipping or grabbing any time I have rode, they may be ok. The only thing in the case that seems to b out of order(other than the damage from the metal circulating through the lubrication system)is the end of the shaft where the clutch assembly is fastened, the end of the shaft looks to be discoloured. That might have been heat treating or tempering from the factory?? I really think that the engine has taken some heavy premature wear and its expectancy is going to be short lived, Other parts I think will either be troublesome or fail due to this incident(like the water pump that just started to leak)I will say that MOB and Bud are completely accurate when bummed is mentioned. I am more than wanting to remove the oil pan to give a direct assessment of the gears and some of the lower parts of the engine, but Im not sure if that is going to solve this. Any thoughts on that would be very useful and appreciated.
    Thanks and have a wonderful night.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 15, 2018, 12:13:10 pm
  I have been asked to look at this thread and weigh in. I had not, until now, because I haven't seen a linear thought process on the diagnosis, and that leaves all of those trying to help reduced to "wild *ss guess" rather than an "educated guess".

  So here's a question I would like answered by the OP. You state there is the same metal shavings in the coolant as in the oil. These are 2 distinctly different engine systems, and they don't cross, or there would be water in the oil. I only see one place in the assembly this could happen, the waterpump. and it would need to be a radial shaving of metal on each side of the shaft seal.

   In other words, the shaft would be walking in and out, the impeller grinding metal from the inside of the pump on the water side, but what would grind metal on the oil side?  Does the waterpump have metal ground off each side of it?

  Please examine these components, and / or otherwise please explain how the same metal shavings can be in both the coolant and oil.

  Steve
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 16, 2018, 06:57:58 pm
     Hello Steve
   I did inspect the water pump that was removed from this bike. I do not  see any grinding on the sides, it appears to have normal wear for a, 18000ish mile machine. I do understand that there are 2 systems that dont have a common place for this to occur. The metal in the coolant I am describing is very small, but can be seen when in a transparent container with some illumination, there isnt near as the amount of reflective particles in the coolant as I have witnessed in the lubrication system. Steve, I am very thankful that you have spent some time on a solution, even if only a little. I can assure this is unpleasant for me and if there were a SOP for this issue, I would follow to it completely. Many replies and insights are correct, of the descriptions of my findings  do appear to be an exaggeration, and on that I personally have not seen this in any of the thousands of engines I have worked on, no I cannot explain what I have discovered.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on December 16, 2018, 08:30:02 pm
Did you or are you going to do the Blackstone oil analysis? :beerchug:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 16, 2018, 09:09:12 pm
     No and yes, I havent sent a sample in, I will send a sample in when the bike runs regularly. It has crossed my mind that the bike has been tampered with. I do live in Vegas.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on December 16, 2018, 09:35:08 pm
If it was me and my bike I would have already, I would want to know for sure whats going on. OK I hope you get it fixed. :beerchug:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 16, 2018, 10:02:56 pm
Can you see what the timing chain is rubbing?
Did the water pump appear to be leaking at the seal, or elsewhere?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 16, 2018, 10:33:21 pm
Oil analysis for the win. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200.00. Do not do anything else.

  BLACKSTONE LABS.

 Steve
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on December 16, 2018, 11:30:00 pm
Can you see what the timing chain is rubbing?

Ride safe, Ted


where is this new thing coming from?

 :??: :??: ::) ::) ::) ::)

I missed it somewhere?

never mind, I went back and read again...


...but I got a text from Jason today stating that most lower bolts on the engine had been touched before.  He found metal and unknown stuff in the coolant.  The timing chain has been chewed on by something.  That should give everyone something to think about for a while.


    Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces.

there are simply too many issues reported, that seem to be "wear" and the word "excessive/significant" is being used in a manner that may seem as such, but to others may be a 'normal' or irrelevant appearance. Until another trained eye, with regards to normal is involved, I'm bowing out as this has gone from a perfectly running bike, with some shiny bits in the oil, to a disassembled pile of parts, looking for every possible cause.


I'm truly sorry to have to bow out, because I greatly enjoy a tech challenge, and find great enjoyment giving assistance, and seeing a successful outcome. I feel very proficient at specific motorcycle repairs and maintenance but I'm not perfect. I highly regard Steve also, as a fellow with the same passions I have/had, with a subsequent timeline. I'm 63, been doing this "hobby" for almost 50 years. I really have to rationalize statements, in dealing with mechanical issues, especially this one when reading something like this:
...... Many replies and insights are correct, of the descriptions of my findings  do appear to be an exaggeration, and on that I personally have not seen this in any of the thousands of engines I have worked on, no I cannot explain what I have discovered.


To tear down an engine, analyze it, reassemble it, even one engine every week: would take 20 years, to total 1000. If I had done that for a living, I don't think I'd be here doing and asking such as this.

I would highly suggest kawasaki be involved on an upper tier level, if all this has been found, found that is, by a trained Kawasaki technician, at corporate level.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: JerBear on December 17, 2018, 12:00:59 am
this is where that was MOB


   Hello all COG folks
     I have been able to sneak on a friends computer for a minute, so I will give you a brief update. Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces. I sat back and the coolant I had drained from the system looked to have a unusual appearance, and upon a closer inspection, there is similar metal particles in the cooling system, and I can see that its enough where I do believe the life expectancy of the engine will be rather short. So I am at a slight impass of to continue tearing it down or run her till it just wears itself out. The more I look the more things I really do want to find. Bud has been helping me with the pics and has been good to talk to, I believe he sent a computer, so I should be up and running soon. I am very grateful for all the help and insights, and time doing research. Any ideas at this time are good ones. thanks again all and have a good evening.

Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on December 17, 2018, 12:52:18 am
     Hello fellas and others
   On the timing chain, the inner side that contacts the gears, shows similar marks in it as the oil pump impeller. The water pump has coolant residue coming from the weep hole, and inside from the weep hole where the water pump mates to the side of the engine, there is a small portion of debris where it could settle. Other than that it has very light indications of wear from the seal.I will get an appropriate kit or 2 coming. I would like to know exactly what is in the cooling system as well, I think they can test coolant. Thanks  guys
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on December 17, 2018, 01:50:41 pm
I agree. We're running around in circles.
      Stop and get the oil analyzed.
On post #1, we asked if the metal was aluminum or steel.   {that must be answered}.

While your waiting for that info, take the frame and engine number to Kawasaki and have them run it thru their computer.
   It may show that (maybe at the factory or elsewhere) someone has been inside this motor {and why}.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 17, 2018, 07:12:01 pm
Talked to Jason this morning on his way to work.  We discussed oil analysis and I stressed the need for that to be done post-haste.  Since we've all wanted this a few weeks ago, I looked online for a lab in Nevada.  Found this one http://cashmanfluidsanalysis.com/testing-services/oil-testing/ (http://cashmanfluidsanalysis.com/testing-services/oil-testing/)  This is in Sparks, NV so hopefully it will go more quickly than sending to Blackstone, back in good ole Indiana.  If it's Blackstone or nothing, please say so quickly, otherwise it's going to cashman or some other place close, asap.  Jason works a bunch of hours so I can't say with certainty how fast asap is.  I'm an impatient feller so I'm hoping tomorrow.

As for calling a Kawi dealer with a VIN, I've called 1 a few miles from me and another a bit farther away.  I got the same info from both that was verified by Gary in his post.  Nothing about any major problems or going deep in the engine. 

I also stressed the need for more quality pics of things (who doesn't love a pic?) that he is seeing.  Hopefully he's going to come up with a camera to replace the other failed one, so we can add to the pics we already have.

Lastly, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for their help and patience with this.  I know how long this has gone on without a bunch of progress.  We need to help Jason stay focused (thanks Ted) and on the path to a successful conclusion.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on December 18, 2018, 03:31:29 pm
Blackstone gives a very good explanation on what materials are present in the oil and what the possible causes are. Does this lab you posted as an option do the same?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on December 18, 2018, 04:16:40 pm
I just called them and asked if they would report possible causes of what they find in the oil.  I did specify motorcycle oil.  They said that they do that.  Go to the link posted and read further for more info.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on December 23, 2018, 08:38:58 pm
Any updates on the oil analysis? :beerchug:
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on January 04, 2019, 01:45:35 am
Guess we will never know this outcome, unfortunate.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on January 04, 2019, 04:46:38 pm
Talked to Jason this morning.  He's having shoulder problems.  It's not over yet.  Have patience folks.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on January 08, 2019, 03:40:59 pm
Sorry to hear that.
Hope the shoulder gets better.
Anxious to hear what the Oil Analysis tells him.

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on January 19, 2019, 12:56:55 am
any updates?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on January 20, 2019, 11:27:11 pm
any updates?
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Skidmark on January 21, 2019, 01:57:03 am
      I do have an update, and I admire your persistant concerns and posts (gpd323 and connie rider)
  The bike is almost assembled, and I am hoping to fire it up on Tuesday and possibly ride.  As for an oil sample, the oil I have from the bike have been cross contaminated. I have contacted Blackstone, and have concluded to get some miles on some uncontaminated oil and go from there. The engine has been flushed thoroughly as well the cooling system. I will post on the upcoming event.
   Thanks folks
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on January 21, 2019, 02:59:33 am
Ok, keep us posted.
Fingers are crossed!

Ted
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: connie_rider on March 09, 2019, 06:55:42 pm
Any updates???

Ted

** "Thanks Bud"!!
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: Bud on March 09, 2019, 07:34:58 pm
Got this update from Jason.  This was all that was said in the email about the bike.


I do have the bike up and going with the parts I
was able to replace, and it does seem to be cleaner in the engine, I
have less than 300 miles on it, and that is due to the icicles hanging
off the handle bars.
Title: Re: metal shavings in oil?
Post by: gpd323 on March 10, 2019, 03:12:19 pm
Thanks!