Author Topic: metal shavings in oil?  (Read 5737 times)

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2018, 12:38:26 am »
My manual is the 3rd Edition. {April 2011}

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2018, 01:21:02 am »
  The specs that I initially found were in an online manual, in which I downloaded. I had found different specs in the manual and was a bit confused. I went to a zx14 forum, and it wasnt even close to the ones in the manual. now its really confusing.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2018, 01:22:22 am »
hmm....

after Ted and I were just chattin' on the phone,(don't worry, we do it all the time..) we both think there were some other issues ...

i.e., previous owner, and what transpired in their possession...  :-X :-X :o :o :o

don't worry, we both are trying to recreate the scenario, and cause, but between the two of us, and you, we think there were some "hidden issues" prior to your purchase, which we both feel bad about... lets see some pictures of the engine case, behind where the basket resides, with the basket removed... we are both wanting to know what rubbed those springs enough to make the wear spots on the coils... something was in there for sure, and could be seen as some damage or something, on the cases from something behind the basket at some point in time.


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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2018, 01:26:09 am »
  The specs that I initially found were in an online manual, in which I downloaded. I had found different specs in the manual and was a bit confused. I went to a zx14 forum, and it wasnt even close to the ones in the manual. now its really confusing.

ZX forum ain't Concours.. prior to 2012, the clutch was different...

just saying... you get what you pay for, when it's "free"... the "online manual" is mystical also, as we don't know it's origin, or content.

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Offline Skidmark

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2018, 06:55:33 am »
            I do agree with you 100 percent and more, yeah free things do come with a price that can be random at best. The manual claims to be 1st edition June 2007. I skimmed through it, and it has some info that's usefull. I do enjoy digging through it, well it is bike porn one way or another. I am utterly grateful that there are able and intelligent minds on this, and thank the devoted much so. I will take some pics when I return home from the day and get them posted ASAP. If there are other places you might need to see, just let me know, I will keep an eye on my phone if there are any questions. Yes, i do believe my hare 1.42 inch free length
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:04:03 am by Jason, Reason: need to give more info as requested »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2018, 01:32:27 pm »
Jason, I wouldn't be so sure about the intelligent minds part of your statement.
                 After all; MOB's mind is involved... <evil grin>   >:D

I know as a mechanic you can look your engine over and determine if someone was in it {prior to you}.
While looking, try to determine how far they went into the engine. {ie; Clutch cover or more?}
That answer is pretty important in determining what's going on here.

If the face surfaces are flat/unworn, I'm not too concerned with the wear I see in the gear roots of pump.
Other than wondering what caused it?

Your springs may be aftermarket, or Someone may have simply installed the incorrect springs.
If so, they are probably different dimensions than stockers..
If stiffer {or softer} , the slipper part of the clutch may not have been working correctly.
Can you measure the length and Mic the wire size of your springs?
We can them compare your numbers with correct spring dimensions.
That is; We can compare, {If we ever determine the correct/stock spring dimensions}..

In some of your photo's I can see flat/wear spots on the side of one of the damper springs.
It appears that this spring was dragging on something.
Look at the area {below that spring} and see if you can see what it was hitting.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Does anyone reading this have a spare clutch of clutch springs?
       If yes, can you check the spring dimensions and let us know?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:53:29 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2018, 09:07:32 pm »
           .... The manual claims to be 1st edition June 2007. I skimmed through it, and it has some info that's usefull.......Yes, i do believe my hare 1.42 inch free length

I looked thru the online one you may have, and it's the same edition of my Hard copy, and the PDF version I have...

so, look closer, skimming over stuff you need answered was there; as the numbers I quoted (and also we find may be erroneous), would be on pages 308 and 324 of what you have...

still would like to see engine case picture of area behind the basket, to ascertain what rubbed the springs, and also need an accurate measurement of your pressure plate springs, and real measurement for the OEM spring.

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2018, 09:51:13 am »
Well good evening cog detectives, and apparent many readers.
     Very good, up first the spring measurements,  the diameter of the friction plate springs .112 inch average. The  friction plate springs free length 1.285 average. I havent removed the center springs for measurement,, yet. That may be due to to my findings tonight, and assumptions, something I don't like to do. But, as you pointed out the mechanic thing,(this is the part I have sent to the back of my mind in denial) I will mention that there has been quite a bit of time in body shops too, from what I can observe, yeah some jacka#* has been in there. Even high quality tools will leave some type of markings, there is lots of that throughout , internally and externally. Factory quality control paint marks are missing or don't align. the guy I purchased the bike from, well he did have the gearhead  spirit, so I'm not yet ready to go there. I know that he had taken the bike to the dealer quite often for various services, and I do have those records. I will go through them again to see what is there. I think they might have goofed up and well  I seem to be a bit SOL. So I.will.post pics tomorrow of some that I have found. And im gonna take a time out, this is in its 5 th week,.everyday, I'm worn down and feel  bummed. The bike will have to sit,sorry folks  I'm really bummed on this one. , thanks all  G nite.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2018, 03:54:32 pm »
The good news in your post is; I know that he had taken the bike to the dealer quite often for various services..
ie; You don't have to dig thru the papers you have, just go to any Kawasaki shop and they can check the history of the work done on that bike, on their computer.

Next; The bike is running good, no noises, and you've located where some metal is coming from, may find another source when you see what that spring was dragging on, know that a lot of you particles in your oil are paint particles from the spring, and suspect other particles may have come from work done on the engine previously..

Bottom line; I think all your going to have to do is find a used clutch and install it.
                   & I'm certain that someone on the COGdom has such a clutch.

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2018, 06:00:30 pm »
Hate to bust your bubble Ted, but I got a text from Jason today stating that most lower bolts on the engine had been touched before.  He found metal and unknown stuff in the coolant.  The timing chain has been chewed on by something.  That should give everyone something to think about for a while.  I'm still wondering if something didn't fall down into the engine from the top and start a destructive chain of events.  IIRC there were no complaints about how the engine ran and how the transmission shifted.  That seems like it should give him a bit of hope that this will work out OK.  Going to try to stay up later than usual to get some pics uploaded.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2018, 06:10:30 pm »
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 06:28:47 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 06:49:22 pm »
Quote
On other posts I've seen though the COG, I saw the bearing failure in the case, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
Think he was talking about bearing failure he had seen on other posts. 
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2018, 08:28:59 pm »
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted

his comment on "bearing" thing, was way back in time, and prior to any other discovery;
he only was referencing something he read, about a totally different scenario...
"The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.
"
no, on to the meat and potato salad...

well Ted, how far off was what I said the other night, when we talked on the phone....? eh?
I'm not a betting man, but I would lay big odds that under close examination, of the bolts, and case split seams, that these cases in fact were split, at least once...

To enlighten, I'll explain to y'all;
I told Ted, and this seems to be coming to light now, that IMHO, the previous owner hammered this bike relentlessly... and at some point, had a catastrophic failure in the transmission.... blew up a gear.... we'eve seen this occur a half dozen times so far....
When he fractured the gear, and pieces migrated, it created a whole panacea of issues... this iMHO again, is where a lot of the metal, and destruction downstream resultant is being seen... facts like all these bolts on the bottom end have been removed, and replaced, wear on the backside of the basket springs from foreign object, various metal particles at various areas of the bike's engine, where stuff migrated, and how the clutch basket got chewed up... like when the tranny locked up, and one by one the gear teeth where breaking off, it was hammering the clutch basket..and the damper springs chewed into the basket...... and as a result during the process, after the tranny gears were "repaired", likely the clutch plates were ruined also... so we really don't know if they used OEM plates, or aftermarket (like Barnett or other), also in the process, the pressure plate springs, were replaced, and it doesn't sound like they are the OEM ones either by his measurements.(if they really are .112" wire, they ain't stock, stock ones were 2.7mm/.106" wire, at least that is what is describes from the part number description from Kaw..
Now, older comments about finding particulate matter in the actual oil filter, and the scarring in the oil pump, (remember I noted there was a pre-filter screen on the pump uptake side?), may be caused because during the exploded gear syndrome, that screen sieve was damaged... and sucked metal pices up... but during the "repair process" that screen assembly was replaced, because it was likely damaged also...

so Ted can attest that I predicted on our phone call,night before last, that this bike had a major catastrophic gear/tranny event, I know it seams hard to understand how this all can be gleaned from afar, on the net, without seeing the bike; but everything that is being discovered, and noted as observed here really points to it.

sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike....
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:02:23 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2018, 10:44:42 pm »
That's information we had not heard before..
All we knew was; he said it was running well with no noises and he was originally doing some polishing..
      The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.

Need complete info to help diagnose a problem.
ie; Need more info about; bearing failure? What bearing???
           I suspect that bearing, may be why Kawasaki was in the engine.

Sounds bummed out.
Luckily, nothing sounds like he has a catastrophic failure happening.
I still think a case split is not needed.

NOTE: If a timing chain has been rubbing it would easily explain a "lot" of metal particles.

Ride safe, Ted

his comment on "bearing" thing, was way back in time, and prior to any other discovery;
he only was referencing something he read, about a totally different scenario...
"The bike is running great, no unusual noises, or loss of any fluids.
       I saw the bearing failure in the case {??}, but there is no crazy noises while riding.
       I was doing some polishing and realized oil change had not been done in the last 2000 miles.
"
no, on to the meat and potato salad...

well Ted, how far off was what I said the other night, when we talked on the phone....? eh?
I'm not a betting man, but I would lay big odds that under close examination, of the bolts, and case split seams, that these cases in fact were split, at least once...

To enlighten, I'll explain to y'all;
I told Ted, and this seems to be coming to light now, that IMHO, the previous owner hammered this bike relentlessly... and at some point, had a catastrophic failure in the transmission.... blew up a gear.... we'eve seen this occur a half dozen times so far....
When he fractured the gear, and pieces migrated, it created a whole panacea of issues... this iMHO again, is where a lot of the metal, and destruction downstream resultant is being seen... facts like all these bolts on the bottom end have been removed, and replaced, wear on the backside of the basket springs from foreign object, various metal particles at various areas of the bike's engine, where stuff migrated, and how the clutch basket got chewed up... like when the tranny locked up, and one by one the gear teeth where breaking off, it was hammering the clutch basket..and the damper springs chewed into the basket...... and as a result during the process, after the tranny gears were "repaired", likely the clutch plates were ruined also... so we really don't know if they used OEM plates, or aftermarket (like Barnett or other), also in the process, the pressure plate springs, were replaced, and it doesn't sound like they are the OEM ones either by his measurements.(if they really are .112" wire, they ain't stock, stock ones were 2.7mm/.106" wire, at least that is what is describes from the part number description from Kaw..
Now, older comments about finding particulate matter in the actual oil filter, and the scarring in the oil pump, (remember I noted there was a pre-filter screen on the pump uptake side?), may be caused because during the exploded gear syndrome, that screen sieve was damaged... and sucked metal pices up... but during the "repair process" that screen assembly was replaced, because it was likely damaged also...

so Ted can attest that I predicted on our phone call,night before last, that this bike had a major catastrophic gear/tranny event, I know it seams hard to understand how this all can be gleaned from afar, on the net, without seeing the bike; but everything that is being discovered, and noted as observed here really points to it.

sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike....
What should he do now?
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2018, 11:42:42 pm »
MOB knows more about a gear incident that I so I'll let him go on beyond my thoughts.

Here is my modified thought; As he said, the bike is running good, no noises. He's located where some metal is coming from, may find another source when he see's what that spring was dragging on, find what the timing chain is wearing against, he know's that a lot of you particles in your oil are paint particles from the spring, and suspect other particles may have come from work done on the engine previously..

Bottom line; I think he needs to {find out from Kawasaki; what was done and when, and "is that work in warranty"}. After that, find/repair whatever the timing chain is hitting, investigate for other items, flush out all he can, then find a used clutch and install it .
                   & I'm certain that someone on the COGdom has such a clutch.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 01:48:36 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2018, 01:08:56 am »

What should he do now?


rebuild it (clutch assembly) to factory per the FSM... ebay clutch packs excluded, as there is no history on what you by from e-bay...just like the bike here, we are attempting to assist on.

if this was on my lift, in my garage, I could ascertain a solution, and give a $$$ figure.. right now, all i can say is its's a cluster#%*$
with a high price tag

again, sorry.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:01:12 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2018, 04:52:41 pm »
Well when it rains it pours.  Talked to Jason this morning for a few minutes.  His computer seems to be having hard drive issues, so when I get an address, I'm going to send him an old laptop to get him back online again.  One way or another, we'll get there.
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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #92 on: December 14, 2018, 06:28:21 am »
   Hello all COG folks
     I have been able to sneak on a friends computer for a minute, so I will give you a brief update. Last week while I was looking through the engine with a bore scope, I took a close look at the timing chain, and it does have significant damage to the inner surfaces. I sat back and the coolant I had drained from the system looked to have a unusual appearance, and upon a closer inspection, there is similar metal particles in the cooling system, and I can see that its enough where I do believe the life expectancy of the engine will be rather short. So I am at a slight impass of to continue tearing it down or run her till it just wears itself out. The more I look the more things I really do want to find. Bud has been helping me with the pics and has been good to talk to, I believe he sent a computer, so I should be up and running soon. I am very grateful for all the help and insights, and time doing research. Any ideas at this time are good ones. thanks again all and have a good evening.

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2018, 01:55:49 pm »
At this point, you can't just ride it as it is.
You have to find out what the clutch and the timing chain are rubbing against. {And determine why their rubbing}
As far as the particles in the water,,, not sure which way to go.
Are you seeing any signs of water in the oil?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 01:33:53 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2018, 05:30:19 pm »
Found the previous owner info on the Kaw site and reached out to him.  PO bought Jason's bike new.  Had a valve cover replaced as well as the fuel injector harness and tire monitor sensors.  No abuse.  Mentioned that he had posted on here about not firing on all cylinders (fuel injector harness).  Had a good chat....nice guy!  He may chime in at some point.  Jason should have a laptop today so hopefully we'll get back to posting more pics soon.
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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2018, 07:50:57 pm »
Good afternoon....as Bud mentioned, he spoke with the original / previous owner....me. Sorry to hear about Jason's recent issues with the bike.  No idea of the cause. Here is a brief history of the bike, as I recall.

Purchased new May 2011, break in per manual, fluid changes at 600 miles.  Around a month later, bike went to Carter Powersports for 30-40 days with engine misfire. They were baffled, even flew in a Kaw technician.  One of the the techs  was fiddling with the bike and bumped a wire, tada, engine ran great. Loose harness wire, replaced harness, all good.

A few months later, TPMS failed, dealer did not have part. Changed tires around 7000 miles, still no TPMS available, so I just ran without, like every other bike I owned. No big deal.

Small oil leak developed, dealer replaced valve cover, if I recall. One recall for a brake rod. Regular oil and filter changes throughout under protection plan.  15,000 mile service done at 12,000 miles under service plan before it expired.

That is the history, mechanically. I have no knowledge of engine or tranny case being opened, unless the dealer or factory tech did so during the misfire research. But, again, I have no specific knowledge of that occurring.

Tipped the bike over once at a dealership at a couple MPH, shut off engine a few seconds after my little tuck and roll off the bike. Embarrassing, folks at the dealership watching.... Showed the minor rash on right front fairing to Jason.

Bike was never road or drag raced,  never used as commuter.  It did hit around d 142 or so MPH for a brief stint between Shoshone CA and Pahrump NV because the road was there, smooth, and great sight lines.  Hit 135 once when my brother opened up his BMW LT and pride demanded I not allow the BMW bragging rights.  Otherwise, the bike cruised backroads, and occasionally the unfortunate freeway, in NV, AZ, UT and CA, running between 30 and 80 MPH.  The bike was used for touring, seeing my desert.

It was never beat on, I am sympathetic towards all of my rigs, off road vehicles and on road. They have to bring me back from where I explore. And 90% of my bike time is alone, and I was cognizant of the need to keep the equipment healthy so I stayed healthy and alive.

So, that is the little history of my time with the bike. It was a great experience, mostly trouble free.

Thanks, Gary

Offline Gary

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2018, 08:14:11 pm »
Me again...forgot to mention...

Somebody said above, "sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike...."

Yep, there is a reason I sold it...not ditched.   I pretty much stopped riding it but a couple hundred miles per year.  I travel for four to six months at a time for business, and the bike was too nice to allow to age without use.  That is the only reason.

Thanks, Gary

Offline connie_rider

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2018, 08:20:43 pm »
Thanks Gary. Your input was appreciated.
Kinda blows the theory that someone was in it or something broke previously.

Do you have any thoughts on it?

Ride safe, Ted

14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
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Offline Gary

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2018, 08:25:22 pm »
Hi Ted...I have no idea why Jason has a problem now.  I was surprised when Bud explained what is occurring.  It makes no sense based on my experience with the bike.

Thanks, Gary

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: metal shavings in oil?
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2018, 09:46:58 pm »
Me again...forgot to mention...

Somebody said above, "sad to say it, but there was a reason the previous owner ditched this bike...."

Yep, there is a reason I sold it...not ditched.   I pretty much stopped riding it but a couple hundred miles per year.  I travel for four to six months at a time for business, and the bike was too nice to allow to age without use.  That is the only reason.

Thanks, Gary

Thank you for supplying some feedback,
and I will admit, yes, that was me that made the comment; Please accept my appology, but my comment was made based on only the facts that were provided prior to you explaining. As a person that has kept his fingers on the pulse of this bike mechanically since it reached the shores of the U.S.A., and have always read and responded to issues that arise in all tech/mech issues, to date I have never seen a laundry list of specific findings of metal particulate matter, being found in so many segregated areas of the bike (i.e., oil, and also coolant). I hope you understand my aprehension, and commentary of suspecting something was amiss, based on the number of findings the current owner posted, and how difficult it is to "propose what really happened" over the internet, without seeing the bike, and doing the wrench work myself, to examine it.

So, again, I'm sorry for the comment, but I think if you were going thru what he is right now, you would have mixed emotions also.

at this point, I just don't know what to say to the owner.   :truce: :truce: :truce:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...