Author Topic: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears  (Read 842 times)

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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« on: July 30, 2018, 06:49:51 pm »
Well, It is not a concern, rather a niggle I have with Connie. I've had the same issues with my previous bike, the Vee. It happens only if Upshifting rapidly, while using clutch. Clutchless UPshifts are fine.
What I mean by misfire is when rapid Upshift 1-2 gear happens, shifter becomes limp as if you hit Neutral. When it happens I cannot UP shift to 3rd gear. A brief roll off the throttle corrects the situation. Normal shifting resumes after that.
It feels weird when it happens.
I am sure some have experienced this condition.
What say you people?

Cheers...


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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2018, 10:05:58 pm »
to correctly describe the issue, in the title of your post, please replace "misfire" with "mis-shift"... so it is clear, the bike isn't misfiring, the shift is being missed... :truce:
thanks,

I don't have this issue, but I can say IMHO, it occurrs mostly due to the "rapid" part of the sequence, where the shift lever isn't being fully moved during the process... 2 thru 6 don't require quite as much "movement", to accomplish the shift cleanly... as once in second, you are not bypassing the 'neutral' position, and all gears are already in mesh...in some manner..
it does require a full stroke, to accomplish the first/second shift reliably... when using the clutch...

I also feel that this surfaces a lot, on bikes that have been shifted without using the clutch, which resulted in wear of the shift fork to gear mating surface, or even a slight 'bending' of that fork, from said practice.

 :rotflmao: but, this will soon turn to an Oil thread, so just make mindfull shifts. :great:
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 10:11:24 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline jwh20

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2018, 01:02:59 am »
One possibility might be the shifter binding up.  Hence this product that may be helpful:

https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_133&products_id=463&osCsid=hs1SjG4QES5f5a3VBv8Tl2

While it may be a transmission problems (read that EXPENSIVE), this is pretty cheap and may just do the trick.
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2018, 01:36:40 am »
This misfire during upshits, thanks for suggestion MOB but I like the way I write, usually happens 1-2 upshift. Then when you want to upshift to 3rd,  shift lever is limp until you roll off throttle and de-clutch. Then all is well. And it may not happen again for a while.
My Vee had that from brand new, so I am not concerned with transmission malfunction.
It is just a niggle I am sharing with you'all.

Cheers...

Offline Phil

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2018, 04:26:05 pm »
This misfire during upshits, thanks for suggestion MOB but I like the way I write, usually happens 1-2 upshift. Then when you want to upshift to 3rd,  shift lever is limp until you roll off throttle and de-clutch. Then all is well. And it may not happen again for a while.
My Vee had that from brand new, so I am not concerned with transmission malfunction.
It is just a niggle I am sharing with you'all.

Cheers...

Glad you like the way you write, but what you wrote is incorrect, your engine isn't misfiring, and your transmission isn't capable of misfiring, since it doesn't fire. So what you wrote, doesn't convey what you want.

Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2018, 05:56:43 pm »
i don't often agree with MOB, but in this case i think he is spot on... :)
happy trails  2016 concours14,2010 bmw k1300ggt, 2015 bmw r1200rt, 09 concours14, 75 kawasaki H1   500cc*79 triumph bonneville750* 2 each  82su zuki gs1100e* 05 yamaha fz1 1100* 03 yamaha fz1 1100*01 goldwing 1800*97 goldwing 1500* 93 goldwing 1500* 80 kawasaki vulcan 1500*76 kawasaki kz650* 66 triumph Bonneville 650* 68 triumph tr 650* 72 norton commando750* 70 bsa rocket III 750*  68 hon cb350* 66 hon cb305*1960 BSA golden flash 500cc*1950 cushman

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2018, 06:05:21 pm »
sorry for attempting to make the 'help' description clear to all, so it's not taken as a firing issue... ::)

it's a shift issue, and if it happens on another bike you own, I just chalk it up to operator error.... :-X :-X

I'll just refrain from any other explanations. :-X on why or what may be taking place.

thanks for sharing your niggle, hope you get it worked out.
have a great day, and ride safe.

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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2018, 07:21:10 pm »
Thanks guys.
It seems this issues most prominent when I am tired. During those times I wish I had an automatic gearbox.
You know it is like limp wristing a pistol, chances of stove pipe or a jam are much higher then.
It seems I am limp footing the shift lever.  :)


Cheers...

Offline Colt45

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2018, 02:32:01 pm »
You don't have a misfire, you are failing to fully shift into 2nd gear. 

Since you didn't get a full stroke on the shifter, the ratchet in the shifter mechanism is not ready to rotate the shift drum further to switch into 3rd gear. 

That it happens on 2 motorcycles of different makes is clear evidence it is pilot error. 

You can help yourself by adjusting the shift lever down.  You should be able to comfortably slide your boot over the top of the shifter pad when it is in gear.  That is also one good (safer) position to have your boot when cornering.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 03:59:31 pm »
I agree with Colt45. Sounds like you need to adjust your shifter down a bit.

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2018, 05:59:18 pm »

...You can help yourself by adjusting the shift lever down.  You should be able to comfortably slide your boot over the top of the shifter pad when it is in gear.....

That is also one good (safer) position to have your boot when cornering.

yes, I can agree a small adjustment of the lever will assist greatly, it doesn't take much....

but, I disagree about the later comment.... the 'safer' position is with the ball of the foot, putting pressure on the footpeg, and never having a toe near the shifter... in a turn, if for some reason you begin to scrape a peg, your boot tip will have already been touching the ground if the toe is over the shifter, and the normal response and reaction would be to automatically press that foot down, resulting in a very untimely downshift, mid corner, which ain't gonna be a pretty thing. :-\

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Offline Phil

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2018, 06:37:58 pm »
Thanks guys.
It seems this issues most prominent when I am tired. During those times I wish I had an automatic gearbox.
You know it is like limp wristing a pistol, chances of stove pipe or a jam are much higher then.
It seems I am limp footing the shift lever.  :)


Cheers...

 :great: :beerchug:

Offline rcannon409

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2018, 07:42:26 pm »
Ive installed this Factory pro shift kit, on every bike Ive owned.  Its too expensive, but it really works well. 

 http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prodk96.html#Factory_Pros_EVO_Shift_STAR_kit_-_Fix_the_zx10_shift_mechanism,_dont_sell_the_bike.

They call it their "EVO Shift Star kit"  Its 239.00, plus shipping.

The part of the kit that helps the most is the stiffer shift spring.  If you dig through the contents, far enough, you can buy the spring itself, for somewhere around 40-50.

I felt foolish for paying so much for the kit, but it did work. Shifting is much more crisp and exact.
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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2018, 10:51:59 pm »
 :??:

I thought I saw you mention you just bought the spring, or did you buy and install the complete 'kit'?

you also need to mention the Murph's Bearinged Up Shifter, you did back in 2014(?),

so, which Item made the most difference?  and which came first installation wise?

I'm silly, but $40+ for a spring, that can be "flexed" to create more pressure, seems a bit daunting to me. You have to use a larger diameter wire, or different material, or a combo of both, and a different twist rate, to make a spring 'stronger'..the pictured spring just looks like they 'stretched it open more' to create that..(92145-0404   SPRING) ref OEM.


in the end tho, that springs 'function' is to place pressure on that bearing cam follower, so more pressure means more pressure to overcome,(by foot/lever movement) to make it rotate. Maybe they should have added an additional, and stronger spring, to replace the one on the actual shifting shaft (92145-0036), the one that forces the shaft and foot lever, to 'centralize' after the shift is accomplished... and not feel 'mushy and loose'; (but what do I know, I just designed stuff like that for 40 years)
 But hey, those guys at Factory Pro have a great sales pitch, (which I do honestly applaud them on), :great: :great:
 especially with that "Trisilicon tetranitride Microbearinged Detent Arm", "(add $20 for hybrid ceramic bearing)" thing    :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
the bearing basically rotates only 60* every shift, and sits idle 99% of it's life. I can see tho, that the star drum profile most likely makes the biggest difference, and the 'recess' that bearinged 'presure follower/locator' ride on, during rotation, are tapered/rounded more than the OEM star, (which fully encompasses a larger surface area of the 'bearing wheel'.)

Thanks for that F/P link, I may peruse them for a spring for some future evaluation.... :great:
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 11:19:54 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Colt45

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2018, 04:47:52 am »

...You can help yourself by adjusting the shift lever down.  You should be able to comfortably slide your boot over the top of the shifter pad when it is in gear.....

That is also one good (safer) position to have your boot when cornering.

yes, I can agree a small adjustment of the lever will assist greatly, it doesn't take much....

but, I disagree about the later comment.... the 'safer' position is with the ball of the foot, putting pressure on the footpeg, and never having a toe near the shifter... in a turn,.................

You should note I said "safer", not best or safest.  The safest position in *hard* cornering is to have the ball of your foot on the inside foot peg, at least.  If you are not scraping pegs, keeping your toes high and tucked in is "safer". 

For the record, putting pressure on any peg in a turn accomplishes nothing.  It's  Bull Sh!te.  It has exactly the same effect as lifting your foot off the peg or standing 1/4" above the seat.  Nada.  A motorcycle is a relatively rigid, vibrating, hot beam between the steering head and the swingarm pivot.  Any load applied in one place is the same as any other place (i.e. seat vs pegs) because it doesn't move the C.G.  What DOES matter is the position of your body because it moves the center of gravity of the combination of bike and rider.  So, you want to help cornering, lower the C.G. by hanging off; increase front traction by leaning forward.  Do something that works. 



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Offline connie_rider

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 01:56:04 pm »
Any load applied in one place is the same as any other place (i.e. seat vs pegs) because it doesn't move the C.G.

Sorry Colt45, but I disagree.
Putting weight on the footpegs vs putting your weight on the seat "does" change the CG.
For instance;  {if you get into sand or gravel} One of the best ways to keep the bike upright is to stand on the pegs and raise your butt off the seat. This is because the CG is lower.
Anybody that has rode dirt knows this.

And, "hanging of" is not done to lower the CG.
It is done primarily to keep the bike more upright, and to transfer your weight to the inside of the turn.

Others; please correct me if I erred in my thoughts.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:08:06 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 06:07:03 pm »

...You can help yourself by adjusting the shift lever down.  You should be able to comfortably slide your boot over the top of the shifter pad when it is in gear.....

That is also one good (safer) position to have your boot when cornering.


yes, I can agree a small adjustment of the lever will assist greatly, it doesn't take much....

but, I disagree about the later comment.... the 'safer' position is with the ball of the foot, putting pressure on the footpeg, and never having a toe near the shifter... in a turn,.................


You should note I said "safer", not best or safest.  The safest position in *hard* cornering is to have the ball of your foot on the inside foot peg, at least.  If you are not scraping pegs, keeping your toes high and tucked in is "safer". 

For the record, putting pressure on any peg in a turn accomplishes nothing.  It's  Bull Sh!te.  It has exactly the same effect as lifting your foot off the peg or standing 1/4" above the seat.  Nada.  A motorcycle is a relatively rigid, vibrating, hot beam between the steering head and the swingarm pivot.  Any load applied in one place is the same as any other place (i.e. seat vs pegs) because it doesn't move the C.G.  What DOES matter is the position of your body because it moves the center of gravity of the combination of bike and rider.  So, you want to help cornering, lower the C.G. by hanging off; increase front traction by leaning forward.  Do something that works.


seeing as you only included "part" of my comment as a quote, I assume you read and reacted to my comment without fully reading the intent of my explanation... which was :
"if someones foot begins scraping the ground, their normal reaction is to press down...hard,  which would result in an un expected downshift...."

please don't misconstrue my comment as something different, I was explaining 'why' NOT to have the foot positioned over the shifter, in a turn...
not how to weight a peg, or change the C/G on the bike.

now, as for Teds
's comments, when talking about dirt riding it does effect greatly the traction on tires when standing... as an avid dirt rider most of my life, I can use the example of riding along on an off camber hill side, and weighting the downslope peg, (similar in effect to weighting the downhill ski's inside edge in a turn, when snow skiing), to "smear" the tire for the most traction and grip...  so standing on pegs of a dirtbike, does raise the center of gravity, but moreso allows that same 'weight relocation' to effect stearing, by using the knees to press either side of the bike at its higher points, above it's actual c/g,  and assist in the steering by that pressure ( which differs from the low speed travel along a side sloped trail).
Road and track riding differs from both, as attempting to keep the riders c/g in a 'consistant' location, somewheres near the c/g of the bike, which tends to be near the gonads... :rotflmao:
Pressing HARD on either peg has consquences, outside peg tends to cause extreme grip, and results in a 'highside' event, inside peg tends to cause a 'lowside/washout... so even pressure at all times seems correct.... until a panic moment.. when people do silly things, as I noted.

so the misnomer that "pressing on a peg does not change the c/g is false"
when weight is shifted from the 'normal c/g' of a 200# rider, sitting on a seat, in a turn, with centriptal force applied, and said rider places 100# of additional weight, shifted from the seat, to an outside peg, it surely DOES change the c/g of the bike and rider combination.

In the simplest terminology, its like the difference of placing a tire balance weight, on a tire rim, out near the tire, if the same exact weight were applied to a spoke where it attaches to the axle hub, it's effect is totally different...

http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/py105/Rotationalkin.html

so, after this, when we note the weight distribution of rider and bike has changed format, and How weight is distributed, via leverage, to a point somewhere other than the original c/g prior to the redistribution, we then add in the important part...

the forces acting upon the bike, in reality, are the centripetal forces, generated on the bike/rider/tire combo, upon said combo as it's slung around a turn (either at a constant rate, or a changing speed.. which adds even more variable) emanating from an invisible but central 'point', the axis of the turn itself....
It's all very simple. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :o

Now I know someone is going to pipe up, and say "no, you are all wrong... the force acting on a bike in a turn is CENTFUGAL force...."

that part is a given, and correct, the TIRES and steering are the counter force, to create the Centripetal force, that gets altered, and makes a bike crash... that, and gravity.


I know, long winded... I condensed it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 07:22:11 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 07:14:53 pm »
 :popcorncouple: :deadhorse:
happy trails  2016 concours14,2010 bmw k1300ggt, 2015 bmw r1200rt, 09 concours14, 75 kawasaki H1   500cc*79 triumph bonneville750* 2 each  82su zuki gs1100e* 05 yamaha fz1 1100* 03 yamaha fz1 1100*01 goldwing 1800*97 goldwing 1500* 93 goldwing 1500* 80 kawasaki vulcan 1500*76 kawasaki kz650* 66 triumph Bonneville 650* 68 triumph tr 650* 72 norton commando750* 70 bsa rocket III 750*  68 hon cb350* 66 hon cb305*1960 BSA golden flash 500cc*1950 cushman

Offline Cali Cruiser

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2018, 11:10:20 am »


For the record, putting pressure on any peg in a turn accomplishes nothing.  It's  Bull Sh!te.  It has exactly the same effect as lifting your foot off the peg or standing 1/4" above the seat.  Nada. 
[/quote]

Lawdhammercy. I love comments like that!

Offline rcannon409

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2018, 12:43:58 pm »
:??:

I thought I saw you mention you just bought the spring, or did you buy and install the complete 'kit'?

you also need to mention the Murph's Bearinged Up Shifter, you did back in 2014(?),

so, which Item made the most difference?  and which came first installation wise?

I'm silly, but $40+ for a spring, that can be "flexed" to create more pressure, seems a bit daunting to me. You have to use a larger diameter wire, or different material, or a combo of both, and a different twist rate, to make a spring 'stronger'..the pictured spring just looks like they 'stretched it open more' to create that..(92145-0404   SPRING) ref OEM.


in the end tho, that springs 'function' is to place pressure on that bearing cam follower, so more pressure means more pressure to overcome,(by foot/lever movement) to make it rotate. Maybe they should have added an additional, and stronger spring, to replace the one on the actual shifting shaft (92145-0036), the one that forces the shaft and foot lever, to 'centralize' after the shift is accomplished... and not feel 'mushy and loose'; (but what do I know, I just designed stuff like that for 40 years)
 But hey, those guys at Factory Pro have a great sales pitch, (which I do honestly applaud them on), :great: :great:
 especially with that "Trisilicon tetranitride Microbearinged Detent Arm", "(add $20 for hybrid ceramic bearing)" thing    :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
the bearing basically rotates only 60* every shift, and sits idle 99% of it's life. I can see tho, that the star drum profile most likely makes the biggest difference, and the 'recess' that bearinged 'presure follower/locator' ride on, during rotation, are tapered/rounded more than the OEM star, (which fully encompasses a larger surface area of the 'bearing wheel'.)

Thanks for that F/P link, I may peruse them for a spring for some future evaluation.... :great:


I added murphs kit, first.  It got rid of probably 75% of the play.  That was nice, but I wanted to see just what else I could do. Long winters here , and no riding....

The next step was the factory pro spring.   The wire is larger diameter, and you can feel how much more stiff it is when you install it. As a guess, I'll bet its 30-40% more stiff... The shift lever was harder to move once I installed it.  The bike slid into gear in a more positive manner.

By this point , my shifting was excellent, and I did not need to do anything else. 

One night I was on ebay, and some company had the entire kit, on closeout for 99.00, so I ordered it.

Murphs kit is a no brainer.  Its cheap and easy to install. It feels like a mandatory mod.

The factory pro kit?  Its way too expensive, and installation is not much fun.  As you can see, and you know, all these parts are located behind the clutch basket, and you have to remove the basket to have access.

With that said, the entire kit is really good.  The most benefit is from the stiffer spring. Thats not very expensive, and helps. If we gave the kit a 100% score, the spring, itself, was worth 80%, if not more. The magical bearing, and shift star were a small help, but nothing like the spring.

I know you are right, on the sales pitch. Their entire site......it looks like it could be on one of the infomercial shows we see, on Sunday morning tv.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:04:39 pm by rcannon409 »
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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2018, 05:01:58 pm »
.

I know you are right, on the sales pitch. Their entire site......it looks like it could be on one of the infomercial shows we see, on Sunday morning tv.

 :)) :)) :))

yeah, when I read about the lever, it reminded me of the polish I used to use on my bikes... I still have a full can....

gotta love those special ingredients...

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Offline cuda

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 12:37:45 pm »
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: misfire when upshifting 1-2 gears
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 07:35:41 pm »
Finally, I have discovered a proper term for what is happening with my shift-a-gizem. A "false neutral" is the proper term used by motorcycle boffins. Increased friction form OEM bushing causes incomplete engagement inside gearbox when shifter pulled up during gear change. This "malfunction" causes "false neutral" under moderate-to-hard acceleration.
I recently discovered that dry graphite lube works very well in taming binding shifter shaft. I am planning to get Bearinged Up kit from Murphes. For now I'll keep a toe on my shifter's action.

Cheers...