Author Topic: Observations After The Second Valve Check  (Read 10615 times)

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Offline MikeB_CA

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2016, 03:25:00 pm »
This photo will help to explain the front left valve cover oil leak.  It shows the left front of the engine with the valve cover gasket removed.  There is a puddle of oil that sits below the cam lobe on cylinder #1.  The bike is on the center stand, but you can imagine that if it was on the side stand, that puddle would be covering the gasket and looking for an escape route.  As a feature request, future engines should have a drain hole in that corner.  The cam lobe splashing that puddle at high RPM can't help much either. 




4Bikes, this might be a really dumb question but isn't that oil there for lubrication? I know that oil is sprayed or injected into that area for lube but because I've NEVER opened one up I may talking out of my ars here :??:!

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 04:56:55 pm »
That oil is for lubrication, but it also needs to stay inside the engine. ;D  A small hole would allow that oil to drain down and help the oil to not seep through the gasket. Other areas of top end don't have that puddle. 
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2016, 10:33:12 am »
Steven,
I use feelers to get to the .0005 range. Then I know much closer tolerances and can see finer movement amounts.
Use a .0015 on top of a standard .004 or 5 or 6. This will get you finer adjustment numbers.
Matt
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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2016, 11:59:30 am »
I know you know all this stuff Matt. It would have been interesting to measure the clearances down to .0005, but I'm thinking the adjustments are not able to go down to that level due to the limitations of the shims.  The Kawasaki and Honda shims are found in the half sizes, which are the best you can do.  The HotCams and some other kits only give the full sizes, which would make it harder to be precise.  There is some subjectivity you can use, for instance a .006 that sides in pretty easy but a .007 does not fit, could really be a.00065?  In the end I don't it matters because the shim size won't let you get down to .0005. 
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2016, 05:59:14 pm »
I know you know all this stuff Matt. It would have been interesting to measure the clearances down to .0005, but I'm thinking the adjustments are not able to go down to that level due to the limitations of the shims.  The Kawasaki and Honda shims are found in the half sizes, which are the best you can do.  The HotCams and some other kits only give the full sizes, which would make it harder to be precise.  There is some subjectivity you can use, for instance a .006 that sides in pretty easy but a .007 does not fit, could really be a.00065?  In the end I don't it matters because the shim size won't let you get down to .0005.


fwiw
I do it the same way as Matt, because I don't use HotCam shims, I purchased indvidual feeler stock from McMaster Carr, in 1 foot lengths, and use the same systme of stacking either a .0005 or a .0015 strip in the stackup, to get my readings. Seeing as the total variance specified in the adjustment range is a mere .002" I find it wise to measure to the .0005" increments, which do effectively let you pick an OEM (Kaw or Honda) shim size, when you measure those shims with a micrometer (not dial calipers...) you will find that fourth decimal place makes a difference... I also mic the heads of the buckets when measuring, which gives you a lot more adjustability in swaping those around also, to get the max reading desired to add longevity to your intervals.

take note of the fourth place decimal readings in my chart, also note some of the shim dimensions that vary even tho they are marked with the same numbers, also note what was accomplished with measuring the head of the buckets, allowing some of those to be swapped and the final outcome in final clearances....
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 06:06:13 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2016, 12:44:00 am »
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?  I was really surprised since I assumed at least some valves would tighten by at least one shim size.

Also, it appears that the service manual does not use the word buckets.  It uses the term lifters.  If that is the case, they do have this note:

The Service Manual Section 2-26
Mark and record the locations of the valve lifters and shims so that they can be reinstalled in their original positions
.


I'm not arguing the merits of swapping the buckets, but the service manual does not support that?


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Offline seagiant1

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2016, 02:31:43 am »
Hi,
        Wow!

Maybe I've said this before, but.... :-[

Being an old Diesel Mechanic, working on engines that would have a hard time fitting into a 2 story house. :o

I would have to say you guys doing these C14 valve adjusts, are leaving the Mechanics/Science Realm. ..

And entering into a Pure Art Form kind of thing now!!! ;D

Quite impressive work,  on a VERY sophisticated engine! :great:
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2016, 12:04:47 pm »
Steven,
I am unaware of any manufacturer's manual that supports moving any "wear-in" part like a lifter or pushrod or rocker arm from its' original location. In the earlier days of engines this was a much bigger concern since the hardening processes as well as the metals were no where near what they are just 20 years later. The levels of harness and wearability/durability of these newer parts is unreal. I would have no real worries about swapping buckets as MOB has done due to the current level of manufacturing standards. I have not had to do one like that yet as I have a huge supply of shim sizes available to me within a 25 min drive.
Necessity is the mother of invention right?

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2016, 12:17:44 pm »
Thanks Matt. Has anyone else done a second or third valve check?  I'm curious to see how subsequent checks work out. My result is just one data point, but it seems to indicate the valves settle in and the wearing surfaces of the cams and lifters offsets the wear in the valve seats.
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2016, 12:27:00 pm »
Steven,
I don't personally think that it is wear on the other parts that slows the migration. I believe the initial one or even two checks are the valves settling into the seats as well as the valve seats settling into the head. The amount of wear on the cam and followers is insignificant to the movement. The harder you ride them initially the faster they will settle in. I had all my valves tight at 15K and by 20K with a lot of high RPM running on a track they actually moved back toward center. I will be going in again at 25K for a recheck.
Matt
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Offline gPink

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2016, 12:42:51 pm »
Steven,
I don't personally think that it is wear on the other parts that slows the migration. I believe the initial one or even two checks are the valves settling into the seats as well as the valve seats settling into the head. The amount of wear on the cam and followers is insignificant to the movement. The harder you ride them initially the faster they will settle in. I had all my valves tight at 15K and by 20K with a lot of high RPM running on a track they actually moved back toward center. I will be going in again at 25K for a recheck.
Matt

Matt, I'm confused here....did they loosen or am I reading this wrong?

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2016, 12:43:29 pm »
g,
They did loosen after extended high RPM running.
Matt
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Offline gPink

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2016, 12:46:13 pm »
Interesting....Thanks

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2016, 12:47:48 pm »
Interesting....Thanks
Threw me for a loop for sure.
Matt
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2016, 02:24:36 pm »
g,
They did loosen after extended high RPM running.
Matt

Hi,
        I wonder if this is why you find used bikes for sale working fine at 80,000 miles and never had a valve check? :o

Not sayin we should do that, but a BMW K1300 GT comes to mind, that I walked away from, (no recorded valve checks!)  when looking for my present bike! :-[

I guess to run a bike to that mileage with no valve check, would be like playing the Lotto! ;D
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2016, 04:54:29 pm »
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?  I was really surprised since I assumed at least some valves would tighten by at least one shim size.

Also, it appears that the service manual does not use the word buckets.  It uses the term lifters.  If that is the case, they do have this note:

The Service Manual Section 2-26
Mark and record the locations of the valve lifters and shims so that they can be reinstalled in their original positions
.


I'm not arguing the merits of swapping the buckets, but the service manual does not support that?

the "lifters" or buckets as I call them, are not a tight fit into their respective bores, ( if you look at those bores, you will note they are not a ground diameter, but just a normal machine bored recess, prolly with a +/- .005" tolerance, and always clearance) there is adequate clearance on their outside diameter to allow swapping. Kaw does not mention this, as it starts to "confuse people with too much to measure" during the adjust process, they simply say to keep them together when removing them, so its easier to calculate new shims based solely on the stamping of the size shim in place, by its thickness... note they don't even tell you to measure the shims you remove either, which we do to insure correct data compilation.

as for wear in this area, if you looked at those buckets, and the corrosponding cam surface, you would see zero wear, absolutly no visible marks showing a wear pattern, this is the result of the modern metalurgy and hardness, and finish, that Matt noted.

if you look closely at my shim map, and note the differences in the head thickness' for those buckets, you will see my discovery that the heads vary in thickness almos equal to the complete clearance range, so swapping them does offer great benefits when trying to eek out that odd .0005-.0007" that allows a max setting.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 04:57:56 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline IBAJIM

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2019, 12:06:13 am »
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?   SNIP ....

My theory is the clearances weren't set closely in the first place at the factory and never changed much before the first check.   Otherwise, why wouldn't some valves change and not the others,  between the first & second clearance check ?
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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2019, 12:16:50 am »
I cant disagree with that.  There is also the school that says they seat early and mileage has less to do with them going out of tolerance due to wear.  That is one of the reasons why I checked mine early and like to say, if you don't check your clearances, you have no idea if any valves are out of spec.   
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2019, 01:37:36 am »
I sort of agree, but as time goes by, and we change our style of riding (sometimes greatly change it) oddities appear.. like, now I ride pretty sane, in the beginning, not so much, and in between, really had a lots of hours, loaded for tour, with 2 people aboard, and as of late, even pulling a trailer... not to mention differences in fuel, and roads, between my tart point in Va. and my current point in Ohio. My initial inspect, @approx 15k, told me to button it up, and ride, but when I did it again less than 10k later, I did do MAJOR adjustments... and all my inspection both times, was done "stacking" .0005" feelers in the stack, and measuring 4 decimal places all the time.
 now I'm coming up to the 3rd time, and am curious myself.. to see the cumulative effects. As I did set everything to the high end, I'm hoping all settled in nice, and if I have to change a couple shims, or not, all good... I really don't expect to see a many changes as I did before, but can deal with a wear pattern and use it a a future barometer.  But then again, we never know until we inspect.

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Offline Texas Concours14

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 01:54:04 am »
4Bikes, thanks for the post. Your posts are extremely informative and helpful. A real asset to the forum.
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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2019, 01:52:51 pm »
Thanks TC-14.  I'm also a bit selfish, because I need to take the time to research this stuff and learn, since I'm technically not a mechanic.  Like woodworking, I enjoy working on my Motorcycle but wouldn't want to do it for a living.  So what you are seeing is a documentation of the stuff I found and the work I did successfully so I have a chance of repeating the process a few years later.  I'm happy to share with others on this forum since most of the information you see was discovered here through a group contribution.  Fred Harmon's videos are also VERY helpful, so his contribution cannot be underestimated. 
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Offline DDZX14

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Re: Observations After The Second Valve Check
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2019, 12:21:38 am »
Mother Kawasaki should give us a "Valve Clearance Sheet" when the engine is assembled.  I got a sheet of paper from Kawasaki stating my engine has 197HP.  Give me another showing valve clearance set from Factory. :)
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