Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Robin on June 05, 2018, 12:59:55 pm

Title: Performance updgrade
Post by: Robin on June 05, 2018, 12:59:55 pm
I'm sure this question has been asked and answered many times on this site but some of the threads I've located have been older ones and I wanted to get the most updated suggestions. I have a 2013 14 and have done about all of the external mods I'm going to (Baldwin seat, Heli bars, highway pegs, etc.) and now I want to get into the performance side. Several years ago when I first got my bike and read a lot about the Guhl reflashing (is that still the company to go with) and recently have seen others online advertising the same upgrade. So, here goes my question, what recommendations do y'all make for a doing the reflash and, what recommendations do you suggest for an exhaust system to get me the most horses. My intent of course is to install the exhaust system first so I can get the reflash to match my exhaust. Thanks in advance for your patience with me and your input!!
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Syxxphive on June 05, 2018, 01:47:56 pm
2 options for flashes. Ivan’s performance and Shoodaben Engineering. You should probably take a look at the suspension too. Traxxion AK20 cartridges up front and a Penske shock out back. Or Öhlins out back.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Deepsea on June 05, 2018, 02:10:44 pm
It all depends on your goal. Do you ride in the twisties or do you drag race? Full Area P exhaust will give you to most high rpm hp but at the expense of lower rpm torque. If you're an average C14 rider go with a slip on pipe and an ECU flash. The most prolific flash is the Shoodaben Mountain Runner or one of his other versions. Many, many C14 riders swear by it, including me. I've had the Guhl and 3 versions of the Shoodaben flash. The last one I got I sent the ECU from California on Tuesday to Shoodaben in Florida and had it back on Thursday. Call Shoodaben and talk with Steve about how you ride and what you want.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: turbojoe78_MA on June 05, 2018, 02:12:20 pm
http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php (http://www.areapnolimits.com/products/Slip-On-Exhaust-Kawasaki-Concours-14-2008.php)

https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/concours1400 (https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/concours1400)

Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: NYbiomed on June 05, 2018, 02:56:27 pm
Most here will tell you the Area P FULL exhaust system and a flash will yield the best power increases. I would tell you a bit more and recommend www.shoodabenengineering.com (http://www.shoodabenengineering.com) flash- specifically and only because he has dyno tuned a flash specifically for that Area P exhaust. Ivan is a bit newer when it comes to the C14 flash, but has a pretty legitimate history/experience as well. I don't believe Guhl's flash is on par anymore with Steve or Ivan's- he was early to the game, but to my understanding, his flash is very primitive and "unrefined" compared to the others. People who had started with a Guhl flash, then migrated to Steve's flash have pretty well documented this feeling.
Expect to pay about $1500 for this upgrade, which is probably a few hundred less than the aforementioned suspension upgrades- which is more bang for the buck between POW-ah and handling is HIGHLY debatable.

Just my 0.02 cents, GL

 :beerchug:
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: AmphibSailor on June 05, 2018, 03:09:02 pm
I recommend that you talk to Steve or whomever you choose for the flash before you buy a full exhaust.  You might not need a full exhaust system to get the performance that you want...depending on how you ride and what's important to you. :motonoises: :motonoises:
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: sininja on June 05, 2018, 03:39:14 pm
I dunno....  After my buddy blew by me on his 07 Aprilia Tuono last weekend I'm starting to think full Area P is mandatory  :))  I love my slip on with Shoodaben Mountain Runner flash though  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Daytona_Mike on June 05, 2018, 04:20:33 pm
I dunno....  After my buddy blew by me on his 07 Aprilia Tuono last weekend I'm starting to think full Area P is mandatory  :))  I love my slip on with Shoodaben Mountain Runner flash though  :beerchug:
Oh boy... Thats a light weight fast bike  about 140hp on less than 400lbs and your C14 stock is about 133hp on a bike thats over 700lbs.
Full AreaP might  get you close but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: NYbiomed on June 05, 2018, 04:21:34 pm
I dunno....  After my buddy blew by me on his 07 Aprilia Tuono last weekend I'm starting to think full Area P is mandatory  :))  I love my slip on with Shoodaben Mountain Runner flash though  :beerchug:

LOL :D

Not really a fair comparison, but let's see how your buddy feels after 8hrs of riding in a single day, doing 80mph and hauling 5 days worth of gear. It's a trade-off for sure, the Aprilia is 230+ lbs lighter!
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: connie_rider on June 05, 2018, 05:52:12 pm
Most riders will be happy with a Flash and a Slip On. (Most power for the money)
  This set up doesn't have quite the peak power of a full system, but has more usable power torque in the RPM range used on the street.

PS: As someone sed, a flash and Full system costs about $1500-$2000+/-. {Actual cost dependant on which system is purchased}
      A flash and a slip-on will cost (approx.) $600-$900+/-. {Actual cost dependant on which slip-on is purchased}


Like most: I have the Shoodaben Engineering Flash on mine and love it.

Sininja, I hate to tell you this, but regardless of what you add to your Connie.
   It ain't gonna  "match" the Sport Bike...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Cali Cruiser on June 05, 2018, 06:02:26 pm


 It's true that these questions have been asked in the past and on more than one occasion and I see that you yourself have asked them before. I'd just like to share my recent thoughts and experiences with you since you have asked.
 It's widely known that there are two viable options when it comes to flashes and one I have experience with and the other I have no experience with other than what I've read. All the information on both flashes can be found on their respective websites that have already been posted in this thread.
 The question has been raised as to what type of riding you are prone to and it's a good one since it's a good starting point to help arrive at your goal. Aside from drag racing and or twisty mountain roads there is one other variety of performance that might be along the lines of what you seek and I can honestly say that the flash I now have improves this one area largely. Driveability is what I'm referring to and it is truly a performance aspect. The Ivans Performance flash changed so many things about my bike (all the same things you can typically read here) that I still marvel at the improvements every time I ride it. There is no sign of the glitchy throttle response, anemic low end response, entire chassis vibration, and overall lethargic feel to the bike it had prior to the flash. The driveability is flawless. Along with these improvements my Concours now performs like you'd expect any 1400 cc class bike to. It has power from top to bottom that it never had before.  At the moment have the stock exhaust and Ivan's flash and just like many people do I've decided to go for a little more "juice" so I'm ordering a slip on and sending my ECU back to Ivan this week for an update he finds necessary when changing over to a slip on. This update will be done free of charge so for the price of shipping it'll be updated and back to me within a week.
 I share the opinion of others that you simply need to decide what type of rider you are and purchase the things that will suit your needs. I figured I'd chime in and throw out my .02 for what it's worth.
 The one thing I'd like to add is that I've raced and ridden many types and brands of motorcycles for about 45 years now and my experience in this area isn't arrived at from just reading (not that there's anything wrong with that) information on misc websites. I love riding, love my Concours and am very happy with the improvements I have mentioned. I hope this helps.
 
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: khager01 on June 06, 2018, 12:22:52 am
I just wanted to say Ivan also has a flash for this full area P exhaust now. If you look at his Dyno charts it loses very little torque between 2 and 3000 RPM after 3000 RPM the full area p beats the slip on all the way to redline I have Ivan's Flash and still have the stock exhaust so I can't vouch for the full area p, but I can vouch for Ivan's Flash totally change the bike for the better.

www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm)
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Robin on June 06, 2018, 12:34:02 am
I really appreciate all of the responses to my question. In answering the question asked of me, how will you be riding.......I'm not much of a drag racer but I do like something that produce additional power throughout the entire range. A lot of my riding is long straight roads here in Texas (although the hill country has some winding roads). Of course, as I feel the additional power, my style of riding might take an evolutionary turn.......I'm leaning toward a slip-on the the moment as it seems to be, according to many, the most bang for your buck along with the flash. I'm liking what I'm hearing and reading about Ivan's flash but am likewise going to research the others as well......I like the jerky throttle issue being fixed by Ivan's. If anyone has any suggestions for the way to go with a slip on.....I'm all ears. At the present I'm considering the Area P slip on.....
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 06, 2018, 12:46:35 am
I really appreciate all of the responses to my question. In answering the question asked of me, how will you be riding.......I'm not much of a drag racer but I do like something that produce additional power throughout the entire range. A lot of my riding is long straight roads here in Texas (although the hill country has some winding roads). Of course, as I feel the additional power, my style of riding might take an evolutionary turn.......I'm leaning toward a slip-on the the moment as it seems to be, according to many, the most bang for your buck along with the flash. I'm liking what I'm hearing and reading about Ivan's flash but am likewise going to research the others as well......I like the jerky throttle issue being fixed by Ivan's. If anyone has any suggestions for the way to go with a slip on.....I'm all ears. At the present I'm considering the Area P slip on.....


well, if you're just reading about Ivan's, it might be best to read about both, and compare... without people playing "mine is best" here in this thread...

so read everything in both these sections, and then make your decision.

http://forum.cog-online.org/shoodaben-engineering/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/shoodaben-engineering/)

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/)

in the end, I can't argue, but I do believe in quantitative reviews and results, from COG members that own this bike, and have gone either way.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Cali Cruiser on June 06, 2018, 02:52:40 am
I really appreciate all of the responses to my question. In answering the question asked of me, how will you be riding.......I'm not much of a drag racer but I do like something that produce additional power throughout the entire range. A lot of my riding is long straight roads here in Texas (although the hill country has some winding roads). Of course, as I feel the additional power, my style of riding might take an evolutionary turn.......I'm leaning toward a slip-on the the moment as it seems to be, according to many, the most bang for your buck along with the flash. I'm liking what I'm hearing and reading about Ivan's flash but am likewise going to research the others as well......I like the jerky throttle issue being fixed by Ivan's. If anyone has any suggestions for the way to go with a slip on.....I'm all ears. At the present I'm considering the Area P slip on.....

About 31 lines down the list on the C14 parts for sale section in this forum a person has an Area P slip on for sale or at least it appears it's still for sale. Maybe look that guy up and see if that's correct. I just now looked so at least the post is still there!
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Egodriver71 on June 06, 2018, 10:18:40 am
If you want a real performance upgrade, TURBO!!!
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: connie_rider on June 06, 2018, 01:45:00 pm
About 31 lines down the list on the C14 parts for sale section in this forum a person has an Area P slip on for sale or at least it appears it's still for sale. Maybe look that guy up and see if that's correct. I just now looked so at least the post is still there!


Here it is.
That was back in mid May.
   Probably gone.

http://forum.cog-online.org/c-14-emporium/area-p-exhaust-slip-on-carbon-fiber-forsale-350-00/#top (http://forum.cog-online.org/c-14-emporium/area-p-exhaust-slip-on-carbon-fiber-forsale-350-00/#top)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Robin on June 09, 2018, 12:47:40 am
Thanks for all of the replies......I've decided to go with the Ivan flash and the Area P full exhaust system.....should have it installed within a week or so.....Thanks
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Deepsea on June 09, 2018, 02:58:59 am
Just curious. What were the deciding factors for your decision to go with Ivan's flash as opposed to the Shoodaben flash? What convinced you to go with a full header system rather than a slip-on?
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: turbojoe78_MA on June 09, 2018, 11:15:40 am
I just finished running through my first tank of gas after adjusting valves, syncing throttle bodies, new air filter, SISF's Area P M.R. flash and a full Muzzy exhaust for a ZX14.

204.2 miles to low fuel warning, 213.3 miles total, 4.835 gal of 89 octane E10.  Got 44.1 Mpg on tank with almost all commuting miles.  Rides to work in the mornings were between 50* to 55*, rides home were between 65* and 80*.  Travel ranged from stop and go rush hour traffic to some 75 to 80 mph runs with 2 rolls up to triple digits.

I was expecting to lose some of the crispness that the EVO flash gave with a Delk slip-on going to the big pipes on the Muzzy but that's not what I've found.

The smoothness and throttle control right off idle in stop and go traffic is awesome!  Almost every day my ride home starts with rush hour, stop and go traffic for the first 3 miles, then turns into 75 mph runs of open road, then back to 1st gear stop and go again.  I'm not noticing any loss of low end torque at all.  In any gear, it pulls smooth and strong from 2K rpm's on up with light throttle inputs.  When rolling up to around 3.5K t0 4K and then getting into it, it just flies now ... WOW   :-\

Stock the bike was like a kitten, quiet, mild mannered and somewhat awkward.   :??:

With the Delk slip-on and the EVO flash it was like a Bobcat, it had a voice, it's quick muscular and capable of standing it's own ground.   ;)

With the Muzzy and the Area P flash,  ... it's a GROWLING angry Black Panther with large fangs and claws, jumping from branch to branch through the trees,  :motonoises: waiting to pounce on small sport bikes.  When done eating the small sport bikes it then wipes it's mouth, and just saunters along with a confident control ... purring along!   :)

Ya ... I'm liking it.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Rexter on June 10, 2018, 05:13:24 am
My ‘08 had a PC-V and 2Bro can when I bought it. It ran pretty good and hard calc mpg was anywhere between 36-40. I picked up a full Area P and had Steve do the flash for that, and I now get 50+ if I don’t twist the happy handle constantly. Playing gets 46-48.

We did a big group ride from Las Cruces to Kanab, UT 5/19-5/26. My buddy has a ‘17 with PC-V and 2Bro. I consistently got 4+ better than him while he ran in eco mode, until I started playing. It evened out at that point.
 
The one thing that took some getting used to is what I feel to be a huge lack of engine braking compared to what it had before the flash. I now run 1 or 2 gears lower in the big hills if I want to stay off the brakes.

I don’t notice a lack of low end power at all. It’s perfectly happy putting around town or loafing along on the highway.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: RoadKillHeaven on June 10, 2018, 06:31:21 am
Quote
The one thing that took some getting used to is what I feel to be a huge lack of engine braking compared to what it had before the flash. I now run 1 or 2 gears lower in the big hills if I want to stay off the brakes.
Could you elaborate a bit more on the subject of engine braking?
Do you feel less engine breaking in gear higher than 2nd-3rd or ...?
I want to get better mileage but I hate losing engine braking. I use engine braking  extensively in both my bike and my car.
That is why I haven't committed to SISF ECU reprogramming.


Cheers...
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Sailor Rich on June 10, 2018, 10:41:08 am
Hmm, lets see, two flash providers, dyno charts used showing different standard to show different hp. Different fuel octane used for runs showing different hp.

Do yourself justice and read the vendors pages, If you have a question call them and educate yourself.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Rexter on June 10, 2018, 12:27:15 pm
Quote
The one thing that took some getting used to is what I feel to be a huge lack of engine braking compared to what it had before the flash. I now run 1 or 2 gears lower in the big hills if I want to stay off the brakes.
Could you elaborate a bit more on the subject of engine braking?
Do you feel less engine breaking in gear higher than 2nd-3rd or ...?
I want to get better mileage but I hate losing engine braking. I use engine braking  extensively in both my bike and my car.
That is why I haven't committed to SISF ECU reprogramming.


Cheers...

Let me say this first.... I am in no way complaining about the flash. This is just an observation.

There is less engine braking with the Area P flash (I seem to recall that being noted in the description). It seems to carry a lot more speed for a longer time after closing the throttle. This is great for everyday riding, but when in big hills such as Eureka Sorings and the mountains in NM/AZ, it takes some adjustment. I prefer to run at the point where I don’t use the brakes, but to keep up with the group, I have to run a gear or to lower to stay off the brakes due to carrying speed into the corner. On the other hand, I can use the brakes, run with everyone, and generally not have to shift gears due to having the torque to roll through.

Like I said, this isn’t a complaint.....just an observation.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: turbojoe78_MA on June 10, 2018, 12:56:57 pm
Rexter,  do you have SISF's original Area P flash, or his newer Area P Mountain Runner flash?
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Grant on June 10, 2018, 03:26:45 pm
Quote
The one thing that took some getting used to is what I feel to be a huge lack of engine braking compared to what it had before the flash. I now run 1 or 2 gears lower in the big hills if I want to stay off the brakes.
Could you elaborate a bit more on the subject of engine braking?
Do you feel less engine breaking in gear higher than 2nd-3rd or ...?
I want to get better mileage but I hate losing engine braking. I use engine braking  extensively in both my bike and my car.
That is why I haven't committed to SISF ECU reprogramming.


Cheers...
If you really like the engine braking you would love SISF Mountain Rider flash, the stock Kawasaki tune doesn't provide much in the way of engine braking.
If you look back on the post you are asking about you should note the poster is comparing Steve's Mountain Rider to Steve's Area P not the stock Kawasaki flash.
The trick in picking a tuner and what tune of that particular tuner you want starts with being honest with one's self and understanding one's own personal writing style.
If you think the tuning debate and choice of tunes is tough with your Connie you should try the diesel World particularly the Duramax and EFI live tuning the number of guys providing tuning is almost endless and the debate on who's best is literally a war with thousands of battlefronts LOL
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Deepsea on June 10, 2018, 06:25:27 pm
 
"The one thing that took some getting used to is what I feel to be a huge lack of engine braking compared to what it had before the flash. I now run 1 or 2 gears lower in the big hills if I want to stay off the brakes."

I don't understand your perception of "Lack of engine braking". I have a full Area P system and the MR flash. Before moving to Germany I typically spent 2 or 3 days every week riding the Sierra foothills with a group of guys all on S1000's and Aprilla's. I also spent numerous days at both Thunderhill and Sears Point doing track days. The engine braking imho is excellent. The C14 with the Shoodaben Arear P Mountain Runner flash is the smoothest and most controllable bike in this power range I've ever ridden. It does what I want when I want and does it with finesse. Oh, those guys on the S1000's never could leave me behind no matter how hard they tried.


This is how far it can lean in the corners.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Rexter on June 10, 2018, 07:31:08 pm
Original. It was done last summer.
ETA: his site shows mountain runner is for stock headpipe and slip-on, not a full exhaust.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Rexter on June 10, 2018, 07:39:56 pm
I hope nobody takes my comments as a slight on Steve’s tune. I knew full-well what I was getting, and I’m very happy with it. I forgot to mention that the flies are out on mine. The flash recommends running them for low end, but I personally don’t feel I need them since I don’t have a comparison to judge by. Looking at Steve’s description, it mentions choosing the decel quality for the AP flash. Maybe I’ll check with him on that.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Colt45 on June 10, 2018, 11:03:15 pm
I'm sure this question has been asked and answered many times on this site but some of the threads I've located have been older ones and I wanted to get the most updated suggestions. I have a 2013 14 and have done about all of the external mods I'm going to (Baldwin seat, Heli bars, highway pegs, etc.) and now I want to get into the performance side. Several years ago when I first got my bike and read a lot about the Guhl reflashing (is that still the company to go with) and recently have seen others online advertising the same upgrade. So, here goes my question, what recommendations do y'all make for a doing the reflash and, what recommendations do you suggest for an exhaust system to get me the most horses. My intent of course is to install the exhaust system first so I can get the reflash to match my exhaust. Thanks in advance for your patience with me and your input!!

Well, I see I'm too late to this party.  I bought my '09 with an AreaP full system and PC-V installed.  A slip-on of any kind is a lot of money for so little HP, but they are easy.  I would not bother with a slip-on.  My bike was also tuned on a DynoJet 250 with a fairly high HP reading.  Having never ridden a stock C14, I never knew I had "lost" low/midrange torque.  I certainly never wanted for more.  Adding Steve's Mountain Runner flash for the AreaP was eye opening.  Had it been like this from the beginning, I'd have been afraid of it.  Ivan has a long history with carb kits, so he should have the right experience.  But, I have known Steve for several years and he is regularly coming up with surprising mods for the Concours bikes that work. 

As for suspension, I have a 748 with Ohlins at both ends, custom sprung and damped for me.  It is so good I can feel the pavement texture and will look for manhole covers to ride over, for fun.  GREAT suspension is addictive.  I have Ohlins in my MX-5.  I had Traxxion install AK-20 with compression and rebound adjustment and a 4-way adjustable Penske in the rear, sprung and damped just for me.  By comparison, the stock bike moves and wiggles too much and is scary, at highway speed.  My Traxxion suspension is smooth, stable and plush without any excess monkey motion whether at 40 or leaned over at 120.  Sublime.  Every bit a match for Ohlins. 

I would counsel everyone to do the suspension first. 
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 11, 2018, 09:44:50 pm
I hope nobody takes my comments as a slight on Steve’s tune. I knew full-well what I was getting, and I’m very happy with it. I forgot to mention that the flies are out on mine. The flash recommends running them for low end, but I personally don’t feel I need them since I don’t have a comparison to judge by. Looking at Steve’s description, it mentions choosing the decel quality for the AP flash. Maybe I’ll check with him on that.

without the secondaries you're not going to get any added deceleration that the others are talking about. thanks, steve

Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on June 11, 2018, 11:16:51 pm
I hope nobody takes my comments as a slight on Steve’s tune. I knew full-well what I was getting, and I’m very happy with it. I forgot to mention that the flies are out on mine. The flash recommends running them for low end, but I personally don’t feel I need them since I don’t have a comparison to judge by. Looking at Steve’s description, it mentions choosing the decel quality for the AP flash. Maybe I’ll check with him on that.

without the secondaries you're not going to get any added deceleration that the others are talking about. thanks, steve

funny how those "i forgot to say..." things really come into play downstream, eh Steve...?
 :-X :truce: :rotflmao:

 luv ya bro, wouldn't wanna be ya, but I guess we both see a "lot" of these thangs...

I have to dig up the website I had recently, that actually HAD replacement Flies, I thought it was on the website from the clutch slave cylinder overseas, but now I can't find it... dammit.... I actually bookmarked it for future (current) reference, and can't find it... they were cheap also, dammit.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on June 11, 2018, 11:33:49 pm


funny how those "i forgot to say..." things really come into play downstream, eh Steve...?
 :-X :truce: :rotflmao:



   Honestly, Rich, it happens all the time. I'll see someone make a comment, or take a comment as meaning my most current flash, and yet I know it's a 2.5 year old flash that has been discontinued and replaced, stuff like that. Actually earlier in this thread there was something mentioned that might make someone think that my flash doesn't have great low rpm manners... but that was one of the original things I targeted over 3 years ago. So yeah, it can be tough when there's "more to the story" and the reader isn't privy to it. Steve
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Lee Ving on July 05, 2018, 11:36:27 am

Just a commentary here on engine braking. In my experience less restrictive exhaust reduces engine braking, as does proper fueling. The newer fuel injected bikes have a groovy feature referred to as 'fuel cut' where the engine is effectively off when throttle is closed. This is very sucky for rideability and makes the most engine braking. The newer the bike, generally the stricter the emissions, and the effect is even more sucky. My opinion, mind you.
For some reason Harleys appear unaffected by this fuel cut, if you get a chance to take a spin on one.
It is my understanding that Ivans approach to his flash involves a level of programming not offered by other flashes where fuel cut can be manipulated among other "locked" parameters.
In my experience engine braking increases with exhaust back pressure, leaner fueling, and fuel cut. Ignition timing also can play a role.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on July 05, 2018, 02:19:11 pm

It is my understanding that Ivans approach to his flash involves a level of programming not offered by other flashes where fuel cut can be manipulated among other "locked" parameters.


  You might want to research that.

  Steve
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: rcannon409 on July 05, 2018, 09:40:49 pm

Just a commentary here on engine braking. In my experience less restrictive exhaust reduces engine braking, as does proper fueling. The newer fuel injected bikes have a groovy feature referred to as 'fuel cut' where the engine is effectively off when throttle is closed. This is very sucky for rideability and makes the most engine braking. The newer the bike, generally the stricter the emissions, and the effect is even more sucky. My opinion, mind you.
For some reason Harleys appear unaffected by this fuel cut, if you get a chance to take a spin on one.
It is my understanding that Ivans approach to his flash involves a level of programming not offered by other flashes where fuel cut can be manipulated among other "locked" parameters.
In my experience engine braking increases with exhaust back pressure, leaner fueling, and fuel cut. Ignition timing also can play a role.

I believe your theory, but it also brings up another question.

If you try a newer KTM...like a 1290 Superduke, the fueling is damn good. Its not perfect, but its way, way better than anything we ever had. Sure, you would probably want a reflash, but its not like you are reaching for the next day air envelopes, either.

There must be ways of masking the fuel cut, or maybe they don't follow the emissions as closely as the Japanese have to?
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on July 05, 2018, 10:21:24 pm

Just a commentary here on engine braking. In my experience less restrictive exhaust reduces engine braking, as does proper fueling. The newer fuel injected bikes have a groovy feature referred to as 'fuel cut' where the engine is effectively off when throttle is closed. This is very sucky for rideability and makes the most engine braking. The newer the bike, generally the stricter the emissions, and the effect is even more sucky. My opinion, mind you.
For some reason Harleys appear unaffected by this fuel cut, if you get a chance to take a spin on one.
It is my understanding that Ivans approach to his flash involves a level of programming not offered by other flashes where fuel cut can be manipulated among other "locked" parameters.
In my experience engine braking increases with exhaust back pressure, leaner fueling, and fuel cut. Ignition timing also can play a role.

I believe your theory, but it also bring sup another question.

If you try a newer KTM...like a 1290 Superduke, the fueling is damn good. Its not perfect, but its way, way better than anything we ever had. Sure, you would probably want a reflash, but its not like you are reaching for the next day air envelopes, either.

There must be ways of masking the fuel cut, or maybe they don't follow the emissions as closely as the Japanese have to?

well, to be honest, it isn't a comparison of like components, as the SD is throttle by wire, and the C14 is cable actuated throttle body.

for the price of the Duke, and with that technology, yeah... maybe someday the C14 will be on a level field, so a comparo of like systems can be used. I'm sure at some point, Kaw will go fly by wire, but expect increased costs, and extremely reduced "owner modifiablity" as the result.
Having ridden a Duke, I see no reason it would need to be flashed. It's a different bike, with different parameters, and weight, suited for a completely different riding style and purpose. Yes, it's a blast to ride in twisties, but you won't ride it cross country, without a lot of NSAID's, and a fat wallet.
Title: Re: Performance updgrade
Post by: Lee Ving on July 08, 2018, 07:43:36 pm

Just a commentary here on engine braking. In my experience less restrictive exhaust reduces engine braking, as does proper fueling. The newer fuel injected bikes have a groovy feature referred to as 'fuel cut' where the engine is effectively off when throttle is closed. This is very sucky for rideability and makes the most engine braking. The newer the bike, generally the stricter the emissions, and the effect is even more sucky. My opinion, mind you.
For some reason Harleys appear unaffected by this fuel cut, if you get a chance to take a spin on one.
It is my understanding that Ivans approach to his flash involves a level of programming not offered by other flashes where fuel cut can be manipulated among other "locked" parameters.
In my experience engine braking increases with exhaust back pressure, leaner fueling, and fuel cut. Ignition timing also can play a role.

I believe your theory, but it also brings up another question.

If you try a newer KTM...like a 1290 Superduke, the fueling is damn good. Its not perfect, but its way, way better than anything we ever had. Sure, you would probably want a reflash, but its not like you are reaching for the next day air envelopes, either.

There must be ways of masking the fuel cut, or maybe they don't follow the emissions as closely as the Japanese have to?

I wonder about that also. I am always fascinated at how the different mfrs get the varied results they do. I have to think some must follow different rules for restrictions. Of course, there is also engineering that differs. It must be very difficult to make a motorcycle run well while conforming to the modern (strict) emission rules. Like I said before, one that really sticks out to me is Harley. Their new US model big bikes seem to fuel really nicely off of zero throttle. Not really my thing, but I have to admire. The Yamaha Eluder bikes to me felt pretty good there, too. The new Gold Wing, not so much. All of my street Kawasakis from about 2008 model years on have had trouble in this region with feeling really "dry" and jerky.
I have not yet ridden one of the big KTMs, kind of afraid I'd like it.