Author Topic: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...  (Read 1047 times)

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Offline gilbysan

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Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« on: August 21, 2019, 02:22:07 pm »
Coggers,
I would appreciate any/all opinions regarding the upside and downside of removing the Cat on a C14, or any bike for that matter.  Here's the deal; Delkevic makes a complete SS header and DeCat system for the C14 either in header only or as a complete system with your choice of slip on. 

I like the idea of a SS header and pipes, but wonder just how much more damage I am doing to the planet if I take the Cat off.  For example, I have followed bikes and cars that seem to have no Cat; the tell tale sign is detecting the smell of their exhaust fumes which reminds me of the older autos that used leaded gas with no Cats, or something like it.

If there is no such thing as a stupid question then let me see if I can phrase one here - Does the ECU and/or other emissions controls subsystems on the C14 mitigate pollutants entering the atmosphere or is it all on the Cat?  For example, does flashing the ECU after removing the Cat offer a "tuned in" set of parameters for the Air Fuel mix and all the other bit twiddling settings, AND deliver better/cleaner results emissions at the exit end of the exhaust system?  By cleaner, I mean less particulate pollution of the negative or smelly kind.

Appreciate whatever info comes back at or to me about this subject.  See the attached photos of the the system in question.
Thanks!
Gilbysan - AKA, Fat Ninja




gilbysan

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 02:45:48 pm »
As I understand it, the Catalytic Converter burns the unburnt hydrocarbons and does decrease pollution.
So, I think the bottom line is; if you remove the Cat, your going to put more pollutants into the atmosphere.
But, a properly tuned engine is more efficient, so it is getting more MPG, and using less fuel {which moves the balance a bit}..

NOTE: A properly tuned engine is also getting more SMG {smiles per gallon}.
                            Which is why we ride..  :great:

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 04:48:53 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 03:39:46 pm »
 And for those considering this header, here's some info... it's an exact copy of the factory zx14r header.

 So I ask you, is that the best header for what YOU want in the c-14 application? Please consider the dimensions of the pipe / collector when you answer.

  Steve
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Offline MtnRider

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 06:09:11 pm »
And for those considering this header, here's some info... it's an exact copy of the factory zx14r header.

 So I ask you, is that the best header for what YOU want in the c-14 application? Please consider the dimensions of the pipe / collector when you answer.

  Steve

Hi Steve,

What are the benefits and downsides of this design?  Thanks.

Leo
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Offline HeavyRotation

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 07:08:35 pm »
Catalytic converters have naught to do with emissions, they are Alien mind control devices disguised as emissions equipment by the Alien run government. I rip them out of every vehicle I buy immediately. The Aliens hate properly tuned motors, we must do everything in our power to defeat them. 😏
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Offline gilbysan

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 08:47:38 pm »
Heavy Rotation,
Ok, but defeat what or which, Aliens, Cats, the Government or all?

Steve, isn't the ZX14 a 4 into 2 header vs 4 into 1?

Live Long and Prosper!  And, Na Nu Na Nu.

Gilbysan
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 10:16:27 pm »


Steve, isn't the ZX14 a 4 into 2 header vs 4 into 1?


it's a 4 into 1 then 2 mufflers. 

 And here's the point, and not picking on you at all but about 90% of folks making exhaust changes have no idea why or what they're doing, and then they're stumped when they see all the useable light throttle torque go out the window. If in doubt, please remember, bigger isn't always better.

Steve
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Offline Gsled

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 10:20:01 pm »
 The reality of the pro's and con's are :
 The medium size of th Delkevic header MAY give you a smidge more low rpm torque than say an Area P header but a little less than stock/ while not achieving the same peak HP as the Area P. ( unless you live at a racetrack you use the low end torque more every day )
 The header may result in a slight lowering of running temp in hot weather, nothing big you would have to pay attention to notice the difference. I believe this effect comes from a larger air gap between the oil pan and the collector vs the cat.
 Without tuning there is no big difference in performance. Even with tuning you should look at the shoodabenengineering web site and compare gains over stock header with tuning.
 The major con's are you do emit more pollution without the cat than with, even tuned. Also in some jurisdictions, including federal, it is illegal :-\

Offline gPink

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 10:27:22 pm »
"The major con's are you do emit more pollution without the cat than with, even tuned. Also in some jurisdictions, including federal, it is illegal"

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'll go to hell for it but I have very little concern for the small amount of pollution my bike might be spewing since I removed the cat. (as I ride down the highway choking on semi-tractor diesel fumes) But to each his own....  :beerchug:

Offline khager01

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2019, 01:16:08 am »
"The major con's are you do emit more pollution without the cat than with, even tuned. Also in some jurisdictions, including federal, it is illegal"

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'll go to hell for it but I have very little concern for the small amount of pollution my bike might be spewing since I removed the cat. (as I ride down the highway choking on semi-tractor diesel fumes) But to each his own....  :beerchug:

Yeah and since every Billy-Bob around here has a jacked-up chipped Diesel Coal-roller pickup with a basketball sized exhaust and the authorities  don't seem to care about that, my C14 exhaust doesn't even register.  I already have the Delk 18" CF can and for only $327 more,  I am seriously considering this header next time I am due for a Valve-check. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:20:50 am by khager01 »
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Offline HeavyRotation

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2019, 01:24:40 am »
Heavy Rotation,
Ok, but defeat what or which, Aliens, Cats, the Government or all?

Steve, isn't the ZX14 a 4 into 2 header vs 4 into 1?

Live Long and Prosper!  And, Na Nu Na Nu.

Gilbysan
I admire your ethic, but as stated above, the absence of shame one feels pouring fuel through the straight piped commonrail puts removing a motorcycle Cat firmly into the realm of meh. YMMV
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2019, 12:21:54 pm »
Catalytic converters have naught to do with emissions, they are Alien mind control devices disguised as emissions equipment by the Alien run government. I rip them out of every vehicle I buy immediately. The Aliens hate properly tuned motors, we must do everything in our power to defeat them. 😏

I'd have to agree with you on one of your points, and only one.

It does appear that our government is being run by Aliens!

Anyone know which planet orange Aliens come from and how can we send him/them/it back? 
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Offline gilbysan

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 01:36:18 pm »
Ok Gentlemen, and possibly Gentle Women,
Thank you for all your thoughts and feedback. I don't want our wonderful forum to become a megaphone for political insight regardless of anyone's particular views.  One of the things I value about riding is that when thinking & talking about, working on and significantly riding we are all joined through the common thread of our passion for the two wheeled mode of transport and I believe this transcends other belief systems in favor of a deity that RIDES.

Steve; to your point about not knowing the whys and wherefores regarding a potential technical change to the bike, I completely agree, hence my question(s).  To me, the "wisdom of the crowds" relative to our forum in call and answer mode is valid in all cases, I appreciate everyone who responds opinion and perspective. Some responses are based on empirical knowledge some on seat of the pants experience, some on plain opinion, all are good.

IMO, a person is either naturally curious or not.  Most, if not all C14 drivers fall in to the former category, which to me is pure heaven.  To have access to so much potential knowledge on tap is truly awesome, I mean it.
Anyway, thanks again all for your feedback.  I am happy with my current setup of a stock header and the Delk slip on with tuning.  All is well in the riding world!
Gilbysan






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Offline HeavyRotation

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2019, 02:44:03 pm »
"The major con's are you do emit more pollution without the cat than with, even tuned. Also in some jurisdictions, including federal, it is illegal"

Maybe it's just me and maybe I'll go to hell for it but I have very little concern for the small amount of pollution my bike might be spewing since I removed the cat. (as I ride down the highway choking on semi-tractor diesel fumes) But to each his own....  :beerchug:

Yeah and since every Billy-Bob around here has a jacked-up chipped Diesel Coal-roller pickup with a basketball sized exhaust and the authorities  don't seem to care about that, my C14 exhaust doesn't even register.  I already have the Delk 18" CF can and for only $327 more,  I am seriously considering this header next time I am due for a Valve-check.
The Delk header fits perfect and was very easy to install. Just FYI
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2019, 04:30:30 pm »
Everyone, do not confuse a ZX-14 header with a ZX-14R header. They are totally different designs.
Plus there are {at least} 4 versions of the ZX-14 and ZX-14R header designs.

As Steve said; Delkevics system for a Concours is a {close} copy of a {2012-2015} ZX-14R header.
                       The main differences (Delk. to ZX-14R) are;
                                                             the head pipes are slightly smaller. {41 mm vs 43 mm}
                                                                    (C-14 head pipes are 35 mm)
                                                             the collector is shorter and may be slightly smaller. {?}
                                                             the collector {currently} has only 1 muffler attached to it.

Below are the dimensions that I have collected.
Notice how much larger the head pipes are than the ones used on a C-14...
As always, if anyone see's an incorrect number, let me know.  :??:

Ride safe, Ted


ZG-14 (Concours)
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.
   {1 muffler}


ZX-14 2006 - 2007
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2") {approx. 50 mm}
 Has no Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.
  {2 mufflers}

ZX-14 2008 - 2011
 Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.
  {2 mufflers} 

ZX-14R: (2013 to 2015)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
 Has Catalytic converter. {Cat is in the stock mufflers}
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.
   {2 mufflers}

ZX-14R: (2015 to current)
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
Has Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.
   {2 mufflers} Cat is no longer in the stock mufflers..

Full Area P System
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/4 and 2/3 are paired.  {Unsure if I have this pairing correct??}
   {1 muffler}

Delkevic Header system {Current}
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 5/8") {41 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm} {Unsure if I have this dimension correct??}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.
   {1 muffler}

Delkevic Header system {being developed}
 Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
 Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 5/8") {41 mm}
 Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm} {Unsure if I have this dimension correct??}
 No Catalytic converter.
Cyl's 1/2 and 3/4 are paired.
   {2 mufflers}
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 01:51:03 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2019, 12:59:24 pm »
   Ted, maybe you can explain the effects of primary pipe diameter and length, collector style, cylinder phasing, and single or dual exits. This will tie together the info you posted about the various exhausts, and help folks understand which direction might best suit them.

 steve
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2019, 03:47:30 pm »
Ted, maybe you can explain the effects of primary pipe diameter and length, collector style, cylinder phasing, and single or dual exits. {and De-catting}..
NOTE: To keep the discussion on topic, I {cleverly} added "De-catting". <sly grin>  >:D

[Steve/ya Devil] Of course you realize you asked a huge question, and I'm not smart e'nuff to understand how each item works. >:(

 But, (being me) I'll take a stab at it.
As I understand it: The items listed {and shown in my post} are used together to optimize the power of an engine in a particular RPM range.
ie; The size/length/layout of the pipes/collector determine when/how the header works at it's optimum.
     The items draw the burnt exhaust out (allowing a full/fresh mixture)

    and then stops/reverses that movement at a predetermined time (to assure a full chamber and better compression)..
   Based on the type of bike, the header designers target the peak power in one area. {without killing the power in the other area's}
   ie;
        The ZG exhaust system is designed to give optimum low end power. {without killing the top end power}
           {35 mm head pipes/1 muffler/more restrictive exhaust system}
        The ZX-14 exhaust system is designed to give optimum top end power. {without killing the bottom end power}
            NOTE: The ZX-14 is the same engine displacement as C-14.
           {38 mm head pipes/2 mufflers/less restrictive exhaust system}
        The ZX-14R exhaust system is designed to give optimum top end power. {without killing the bottom end power}
            NOTE: ZX-14R is a 1441 cc engine.
           {43 mm head pipes/2 mufflers/less restrictive exhaust system}

All {ok} "Most" of us want "more power".
            The question is; "where" do you want that power?
                           ie; How do "you" ride?


(riding style 1) Some prefer to ride smooth and user higher gears to toque thru the corners.
(riding style 2) Others prefer to downshift and use RPM's to accelerate out of the corners.
                                         Which style fits you the best?

At this point; I'm waiting to see some dyno plots on the Delkevic system;
 I'm hoping {because of the single exhaust port and slightly smaller head pipes} the Delk's may fit somewhere between style 1 and style 2.
 But; I suspect the they are more targeted for a person that uses riding style 2..

Ride safe, Ted

PS: On my bike "I" {Style 1} installed 2006 ZX-14 headers as I think this combination works best for me.
         {38 mm head pipes/catless/less restrictive exhaust system}
      After that {semi-difficult} install, I've tried 2 different mid pipe/muffler sizes, and 3 Flashes.
          (I currently have the MRP Flash and love it!)                   
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 05:22:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline HeavyRotation

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2019, 05:28:45 pm »
Hey Ted, i have the Delk with AP flash, i ride The Pace most of the time, which is style 1, and the bike runs so good between 3 and 6k you can thrust effortlessly in 4th forever unless you're occasionally interrupted by a 15mph corner that needs a click down to maintain proper dynamic tension. The good news is it also builds velocity into a howling top end with perfectly linear feeling torque. Steves AP flash and Delk system makes the bike feel almost like a big triple in flexability but with 4 banger peak power. I wouldn't change a thing. I know I've said torque a lot but did i mention the torque? At 4500rpm it has all the satisfying roll on of a giant electric motor, but with lovely IC growly noises.
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 07:16:08 pm »
Thanks HeavyRotation. That is a very encouraging report.
As I recall you have a  Delk with {modified} AP flash ?
   I think Steve performed a little "tweak" to the AP Flash for those with the Delk. headers?

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Did you ride the bike before the Flash?
      Would be interesting to know the difference {primarily in low end torque}...
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Offline HeavyRotation

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2019, 08:47:12 pm »
 :)) yeah i put about 2k on it stock, then 1k with the full delk installed. It was a real dog up to 4500 as stock and terribly lurchy around town. I rode it like an R6 to get around all that but it felt stupid to keep that big motor spinning all the time. Stock it had an ok midrange surge from 4500 to 8k then it fell on its face. The full delk let it pull through the top noticeably better but not any improvement down low. I did get a slightly tweaked AP flash with MR controls according to Steve. The engine braking feels similar to stock but not lurchy as you roll off midturn. Thing stays really stable as you come off to on at full lean, zero drama just lots of torque from about 3k. I found myself short shifting and riding the growly wave, very pleasurable. It actually makes enough power at 5500 to make the rear squirm about on dry pavement at peg scraping angles, feels like a real sportsbike. That wall of torquey acceleration doesn't fall off or have any steps in the power, it's just seamless thrust right out to 130 which is about as fast as i want to go anymore. Even overdrive has no bog, pulls clean from 2500, though im hesitant to wfo down there on a short stroke engine with probably advanced timing and no knock sensors. Engine performance is super now, so someone please solve my peg/bracket/bigfoot problem.
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2019, 10:18:01 pm »
I like torque, I installed the old smaller  ZX1400  stock headers with removed cats and Two Brothers cans, don't believe I lost any low end,

 I once installed a Kerker exhaust on my XS1100, four members of my group  had XS1100s, yeah I lost low end, was a mistake, that's why I did not

want BIG tubes for the street. Everything is a trade-off, except Steves flash :08:

         
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2019, 02:45:18 pm »
Cuda, you gave a better answer to Steve's question with 2 lines than I did with my long answer!
  The old style {big-long tube/big-long collector} headers killed low end because they were built to produce peak power at high RPM's.
     (I had Kerkers on my KZ-1000  :-[)
NOTE: Carburetors had a lot to do with the peakiness too. We now have Fuel injection which can be more tunable.

HeavyRotation, I liked the way you did the last ride report.
  You clearly explained the differences of each phase.

The headers we've been talking about are better than the old designs, as the designers blended the items to get the peak power where they wanted it without killing the power in the other area's.

I (mostly) stayed away from the Flash earlier as Steve's question was about header design.
Both of you helped make the "header part" of the discussion clearer.

HR; Apparently the modified AP Flash is close to what you want.
        I suspect soon there will be a specific Flash that will make it even better!
        How come you ain't a COGger yet? You sure seem to fit the group... {Thinkaboutit}

Cuda; Great minds think alike. We both selected the same headers for the same reasons.
         Is yours flashed?

(Cleverly) Getting back to De-catting or not; People that follow me sometimes comment that my bike smells rich.
It took me awhile to realize their "not" smelling a rich mixture as much as their smelling an engine that doesn't have a Cat.


Ride safe, Ted

PS: Steve/others, add your thoughts here (please). You know more than I!!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 07:41:19 pm by connie_rider »
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2019, 11:28:41 pm »
 This great info guys.
 I have been toying with the idea of buying a full AP system.
  What can I expect?  I guess what im asking is what will  I feel? Ive seen the dynos but how much outright WOT power will I actually feel?
  And how will everyday riding be affected? I understand ill need the AP flash of course.
 Im asking because to do this its gonna cost around a grand .  Thats no small change especially if I dont get that "yahoo this is awesome!!" feeling after the install.
 
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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2019, 12:01:55 am »
At this time there are no Dyno Plots and no Flash built specifically for the Delkevic Headers.

Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
Gone but not forgotten; 87 and 00 Connies..

If your not already a COGger, "consider becoming one".
Help us make "OtP" possible again!!

Offline strum

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Re: Pro & Cons of De-Catting Exhaust...
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2019, 12:11:17 am »
At this time there are no Dyno Plots and no Flash built specifically for the Delkevic Headers.

Ride safe, Ted

Not talking the Delkevic Ted . I was talking the full Area P .
2016 C-14