Author Topic: Question for the peanut gallery...  (Read 641 times)

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Offline OKC14

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Question for the peanut gallery...
« on: August 07, 2017, 11:19:21 am »
I'm currently running a Delkevic 9" can and an 07 ZX14 header (factory catless) on my 2011. The bike is running great although definitely rich, and I've been procrastinating on getting Steve's wonderful flash, but the time has come.  Here's my question/conundrum: should I get the Evo flash or the Area P?  Yeah yeah I know that my setup isn't the Area P tuned setup--but it is a similar straight-through with no cat and the ZX header appears to be tri-y after some examination. So, my theory is that the Area P flash would be better, although not perfect. I know the Evo flash is setup for stock header, no mods other than a slip on, so I'm hesitant to get it with my current configuration. In my mind, most of the power from Steve's flashes comes from leaning out the wayyyyyy too rich factory map, which explains the increase in mpg as well. Kudos to Steve on great work. 

I may be overthinking I just want to maximize my dollars and not get the wrong flash the first time.

P.S. Before anyone asks, no, the ZX header with a 9" can isn't too loud--I just did a 5k trip on it through 9 states and at highway speeds you can barely hear it. I will miss the decel pops after the flash though. Sounds so nasty in the best possible way. Lol

Offline reid53

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 11:32:17 am »
I'm pretty sure Steve does have an EVO flash for a full Area P exhaust system with slip-on.   :beerchug:
08 Concours "Silver Belle" with SISF EVO Flash
98 Concours "Tallahassee Belle" (Sold)

Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 11:42:47 am »
I'm pretty sure Steve does have an EVO flash for a full Area P exhaust system with slip-on.   :beerchug:

Reeehheeeheeeeaaaallllly.... hmmm :)

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 11:54:21 am »
I'm confused: all zx-14 exhausts are DUALS, correct?
 You said Delkvic PIPE not pipe(s) -- so want to be sure I understand your query.

I too am running a catless zx14 system with Akrapovic CF pipes.
Talked to Steve several times about his AreaP flash with my setup, and eventually talked him into
letting me apply it to my setup.  He was worried I wouldn't be happy, or it would perform to 100% of HIS expectations.
I TOTALLY respect that, and his desire to give only 100% satisfaction with his product.

Prior to applying his Flash, i had done NO retuning to my system, so it had some serious deficiencies in smoothness, efficiency, and power delivery.

Im sure there's more fine tuning that could be done, as mine is a one-off system, and not specifically tuned for the AreaP system flash.
However (and this was the logic I used on Steve) it's better than nothing, and running the stock mapping/fueling with the new exhaust system!
True to form, Steve's Flash made everything smoother and more linear. Money well spent for ME, and have never looked back or regretted the choice!

**THere's an EVO version of the Area P flash???***  :)

hope that helps.

gr
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 12:01:59 pm »
I'm confused: all zx-14 exhausts are DUALS, correct?
 You said Delkvic PIPE not pipe(s) -- so want to be sure I understand your query.

Yes the header is a dual exit, I capped the left side exit to run the single side pipe.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 12:12:16 pm »
I'm pretty sure Steve does have an EVO flash for a full Area P exhaust system with slip-on.   :beerchug:

Reeehheeeheeeeaaaallllly.... hmmm :)

  Well before we devolve, let me put it this way,  Reid is mostly correct in that the features in the EVO flash are incorporated in the Area p full system flash also. In fact I actually developed them while riding the area p system in the mountains last year (where Reid was my roommate) and them used those feature to develop the EVO flash.

   Now for an interesting twist to the whole tuning for exhaust thing, I had a bike on my dyno this weekend, a 2009 c-14 with a 2 brothers full zx14 system. Tri-y, Single side, 41mm tubes. I ran 3 different flashes on it, and of the 3 there was almost not enough difference between them power wise to pick what's best. Sure, the a/f rations were different - but the bike didn't care. Now of course this didn't consider ram air effect, and if you've read my opinion on tuning you know that to me a dyno is a last ditch effort because it only gives info in such limited cells (WOT). Ultimately we settled on the EVO flash, because actually if hairs were split, the full system areap flash did the worst of the 3 flashes. Not that anyone would notice though. BTW, we did about 20 runs, so it's not like this was a quicky session.

  So IMO, I don't think you'ld go wrong with either the evo flash or the areap full system flash. The system you have has smaller head pipes than what we tested, and you might be surprised that the dual muffler setup may not be all that as far as flow - or it may be, I need one on the dyno to compare to other systems to expand my knowledge base. The area p system flash is leaner somewhat that the evo flash in low rpm and lighter throttle applications, because it tends tends to over evacuate the cylinders, and the lower cylinder charge doesn't benefit from the extra fuel. In that manner the evo MAY be better if your system has more backpressure than the areap system in those conditions, which I would expect.

  So there you go... without me having a bike set up with that system, my opinion is as clear as mud  :-[ .

  Tell you what ... Get a flash, take it to the dyno, send me a chart. Send the ecu back, I'll reflash it to the other flash no charge, dyno it, and we'll set you up with the one that works the best for you. Or bring your bike here and we'll wring it out. And in the end the flash you select will probably have nothing to do with the dyno chart, because I bet you'll decide from a rideability standpoint instead.  :motonoises:

 Steve

   
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 12:12:37 pm »
**EDIT**
Of course I posted that SECONDS after Steve Chimed in!!  :great:
I'll shut up now!!


I'm not at all sure I understand the logic of that? switching to a zx14 header and blocking one pipe??

The unique plumbing of the ZX14 header (vs. c14) does offer advantages for top end power, but Steve's flash has been proven to
produce more low-end power and acceleration with the OEM setup than even the ZX14 dual systems.

Personally, I wanted a dual LOOK and SOUND, and wasnt entirely worried about MAX power, but clearly I got more than the OEM system without Steve's flash.
Admittedly, all of the little mods that I had to make to the bike to accommodate the dual system were a PITA, and costly.
I digress....

Have you consulted with Steve??

I'm not entirely sure which flash would be more beneficial to your setup.
If you look at it like i did -- even tho Steve has not made a custom map for YOUR setup, overall, you'd still benefit from
his mapping and overall applicability vs. the OEM mapping.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 12:17:13 pm by ghostrider990 »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 12:13:15 pm »
I'm confused: all zx-14 exhausts are DUALS, correct?
 You said Delkvic PIPE not pipe(s) -- so want to be sure I understand your query.

Yes the header is a dual exit, I capped the left side exit to run the single side pipe.

 You should have said that first... go with EVO. Steve
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 12:39:31 pm »
I'm confused: all zx-14 exhausts are DUALS, correct?
 You said Delkvic PIPE not pipe(s) -- so want to be sure I understand your query.

Yes the header is a dual exit, I capped the left side exit to run the single side pipe.

 You should have said that first... go with EVO. Steve

EVO it is. Thank you :)

Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 12:57:59 pm »

I'm not at all sure I understand the logic of that? switching to a zx14 header and blocking one pipe??

The unique plumbing of the ZX14 header (vs. c14) does offer advantages for top end power, but Steve's flash has been proven to
produce more low-end power and acceleration with the OEM setup than even the ZX14 dual systems.

Personally, I wanted a dual LOOK and SOUND, and wasnt entirely worried about MAX power, but clearly I got more than the OEM system without Steve's flash.


Interestingly enough, I started out to go the dual route, but I liked the look of the single-sided pipe and in my mind the catless ZX header and slightly larger primaries/collector were a slight upgrade in flow, even single-sided. Granted, blocking the left side exit was a bit of a flow changer, but looking at the collector design on the ZX, the small piece of metal that divides the left and right side exit is so far recessed inside the collector body I really don't think it would change the backpressure or exhaust exit speeds in a really measurable way on a dyno or otherwise. I have noticed a significant top-end increase where the stock setup just kind of fell on its face around 8k, this setup pulls consistently past 8 all the way to 11. I'm mainly interested in the flash for the low rpm smoothness and to lean the hell out of it, with no O2 sensor and stock map this bike is wayyyyy too rich imo. I don't know what Ma Kawi was thinking. Of course I know butt dynos are wrong, but it feels better up top than stock.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 01:01:52 pm »
Yeah, I was considering posting up about this weekend's dyno work. The man who owned the bike was weighing the appx 1500.00 he spent fpr the system, installation and dyno time vs my bike with a slip on, and I think he was not as happy as he hoped he'd be. My bike (stock header / area p slip on) clearly outpowered his to 7000 rpm, and then his showed a 4 hp superiority at peak hp.  steve
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 01:30:49 pm »
Yeah, I was considering posting up about this weekend's dyno work. The man who owned the bike was weighing the appx 1500.00 he spent fpr the system, installation and dyno time vs my bike with a slip on, and I think he was not as happy as he hoped he'd be. My bike (stock header / area p slip on) clearly outpowered his to 7000 rpm, and then his showed a 4 hp superiority at peak hp.  steve

It's all a trade off imo. Big dollar tuned systems are just moving the horsepower and torque numbers around, not really gaining where you'd think. I think I have just under $400 on my system... pipe was $78 and Delk slipon was $279 and change. Misc clamps and some welding wire were involved. LOL

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 03:38:01 pm »
Yeah, I was considering posting up about this weekend's dyno work.  My bike (stock header / area p slip on) clearly outpowered his to 7000 rpm, and then his showed a 4 hp superiority at peak hp.  steve

YES,, Please post the charts..
Mildly surprised that the full (Two Brother's) system only showed a 4 HP increase.
As I recall the full Area p System {w/matching flash} does quite a bit better. (mebbe 10+ HP above a stock with Evo?).

Ya'll already know I plan to install a ZX-14 header system with 1 muffler so I won't go into that.
  {I keep getting sidetracked on that project}

OKC/Ghost; please tell us which year ZX-14 headers you have? (If 2008 -2012, did you do the de-cat yourself)? 

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 03:53:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 05:08:46 pm »

OKC/Ghost; please tell us which year ZX-14 headers you have? (If 2008 -2012, did you do the de-cat yourself)? 

Ride safe, Ted

I got an 07 ZX14R header, catless from the factory. It was an eBay find, in pristine shape with one or two little scratches on the bottom of the collector, no actual damage. The primaries bolted right up with the factory C14 gaskets and the Delkevic midpipe worked just fine with an exhaust clamp and some fiberglass exhaust wrap. The OD of the right side exit on the dual exit collector was slightly smaller than the factory single exit C14 collector, so I wrapped a single layer of exhaust wrap around the flange, smoothed it out with metal exhaust tape, then slipped the midpipe over and tightened it down with the clamp. About 6k miles later it's tight, no wobbles or leaks, and my center stand works just like it did on the OEM setup. In fact, the midpipe is in exactly the same position as it was with the stocker, the little rubber center stand stopper is in the exact same position with the ZX header.

The left side collector exit I left in place, but welded a steel cap over it so if I ever want to go dual its as simple as getting the hangers, muffler and midpipe and cutting the cap off.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 05:16:29 pm by OKC14 »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 06:02:15 pm »
Thanks OKC.

I just bought a 2006 ZX-14 header to replace the 2013 ZX-14R that I intended to use.
   {I decided the head pipes on the 2013 are too big}.

I discovered there is a difference in the exhaust ports, on the different years.
 The 2006 and 2007 ZX-14 headers have 2" Exhaust Ports.
 The 2008-2011 ZX-14, 2012-2017 ZX-14R, {and the Concours} all have 2 1/8" exhaust ports.

After reading Steve's comments on the dyno runs, the single muffler, and knowing we have 2" ports,,, makes me think the Evo Flash is our best option.
{Particularly after seeing Steve's last post}.   ie; You should have said that first... go with EVO. Steve

Not so sure of that solution for Ghostrider as I think he has 2008+ headers (2 ea. - 2 1/8" ports, with cats removed) and 2 mufflers.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Ghostrider sed;  {thinkaboutit}
I'm not at all sure I understand the logic of that? switching to a zx14 header and blocking one pipe??
The unique plumbing of the ZX14 header (vs. c14) does offer advantages for top end power, {2 mufflers}
                                    but Steve's flash has been proven to produce more low-end power and acceleration with the OEM setup {1 muffler}
                                              than even the ZX14 dual {2 muffler} systems.

My thought;
1 muffler;  Better rideability; {I think the single muffler will allow the engine to develop more low end than 2 mufflers}

My evil plan; Use 1 Slip On, on the right side {2" Ex port} for better low end.  {at least; equal to a ZG system}             
                   Add a pressure relief valve on the left side. {will open/increase flow only at WOT/high rpm to get more high RPM Power}
                     
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 03:45:36 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 07:13:15 pm »
Thanks OKC.

My evil plan; Use 1 Slip On, on the right side {2" Ex port} for better low end.                   
                   Add a pressure relief valve on the left side. {will open/increase flow only at WOT/high rpm to get more top end}
                     

Ted, I've talked to you about that evil plan via phone, this is Jason in Tulsa, BTW.  I lost your number :(

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 07:19:32 pm »
I know that...
 Tried to get back in touch.
   Called you multiple times...
     Sent Text notes...

Since he ain't here to defend himself... It's obviously Ghostrider's fault.. <evil grin>  :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted  {I are not a peanut}  :nananana:

« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 07:38:28 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 07:24:00 pm »
Got a new phone, and I lost a few contacts. PM me your number and I'll add you to the recognized list of numbers I answer. LOL

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 12:10:26 pm »
TED: Meet Jason.  :D :D :D

Glad we could solve the mystery of who you talked to about this situation!  :great:

Going back to a few of the comments:

I think I'm running an 08 ZX14 header, and had the cats professionally gutted and rewelded.
Then I had the whole thing jethot coated -- it wasn't pristene, and I wanted it to "disappear" behind the
front fairing.  I like how it turned out, but GAWD did I spend money on this cobbled-together system.  >:(

Literally - I'm embarassed to say what I put into it, including all the hardware, pipes, hangers, etc.
I could have purchased a full areaP system, akrapovic, or Muzzys for half of what I spent.
Yep, that's what I get for wanting to be "different".

I LOVE the look, the sound, and the individuality of how my bike looks (pretty sure I'm the only one with THIS combo)
but if I had to do it all over again, I would have simply left the OEM Header on the bike, bought a slip on, got the EVO Flash, and called it
good.  Nay -- DAMN good.  :beerchug:

Each his own, I suppose.

gr
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 04:25:22 pm »
Simple answer; we do it because it's there..

In my case, the costs are minimal.
I already have; an Area P Slip-on for my stock exhaust, a set of stock ZX-14 mufflers, and an Evo Flash.
  So, I don't count those costs on this project.
  By the way, I love how the bike runs since I added the Evo!!, and I totally agree that just the Slip-on and the Evo are all
        that most/normal people need..
    "But", I like to tinker, retired and need a project, love to discuss idea's with COGgers, and I'm a little A-B-normal.

Costs; Total  $260
2 ZX exhausts ($100), 1 Relief valve {$80}, aluminum and SS to build the Relief Valve adapters {$40}, Oxygen Sensor port/plug {$20}, header gaskets {$20}.

NOTE: Everything was ready to assemble until I opted to move to the 2006 ZX-14 system.
            Unfortunately, it has 2" ports instead of the 2 1/8" ports that were on the 2013 ZX-14R system.
            So, now I need to machine 2 or 3 adapter bushings.  >:(

When I'm done, my system will be changeable. {I can easily change things to see what happens}
       I can use 1 or 2 mufflers, or a slip-on, a plug or a relief valve.
       I'll have a Oxygen Sensor Port to measure AFR, and another port to measure pressure...

Like I sed; A-B-normal.....

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Talked to Jason yesterday.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 05:40:51 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline OKC14

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Re: Question for the peanut gallery...
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 05:28:16 pm »
Guilty! Fellow tinkerer.