Author Topic: Rear brake pedal engagement point  (Read 5007 times)

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Offline Vader

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Rear brake pedal engagement point
« on: June 09, 2017, 01:01:10 pm »
I bought a used 2011 C14 in 2014 with 7000 miles, and while trying it out, I noticed the rear brake pedal engaged at different levels while riding. After riding more, I figured out what makes it react differently. Press the back brake first and it goes down about an inch. Pull the front brake first, then press the rear and it goes down 1/4 inch. This is very disconcerting while riding the mountains here in East Tennessee "quickly".
 
The brakes need bleeding, right? So I tried that with no effect. I decided to let the professionals do it and change all the fluid since it was 6 years old. The dealer informed me that my brakes are not linked, which I quickly refuted and proved that they were. But worse than that, the rear brake still engages differently depending on which brake you apply first. And the rear brake will pump up after 3 presses while riding.

My question is, does the Concours have a bleed valve on the ABS Accumulator that should be bled? If so, where is it? I feel this Kawasaki dealer is not familiar with the Concours system and has not read his service manual. I've inquired about the problem and have found no one else that experiences this.

Offline jonathan

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2017, 01:46:41 pm »
Your bike does have linked brakes and the different engagement points depending on which brake is activated first is normal.
Calgary, Alberta

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2017, 10:55:28 pm »
What Jon said - and there is no bleeder on the ABS unit.

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Offline Vader

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 11:45:16 pm »
Does that mean that you guys experience that difference and it doesn't seem uncomfortable when riding aggressively? Should I just accept it and forget about it?
I recently rode a BMW K1600 with ABS for 10 days in California and it did not do that. I've been riding my Concours for 3 years and 21,000 miles and I have gotten used to it somewhat, but I still don't like the brake difference. But I do love the bike!
I'm headin to Maine for a 12 day blast and hoped I could get that issue straightened out before I go.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 12:34:57 am »
Going to a gen 2 with linked brakes from a gen 1 I just couldn't get to like the system so I 'delinked' it so it would function as I was accustomed to.  I have since sold the gen 2 and gone back to a gen 1 for other reasons. 


Delinking the brakes will not change the way the pedal behaves, which wasn't a concern for me.  My issue was the way the linked brakes made the bike behave when cornering.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 01:48:35 am by Freddy »
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 11:16:18 pm »
I never use the back brake on a street bike anyway---unless  maybe I am below 3   miles an hour.  You guys use the back brake for normal riding?   :o
Dirt bike-- thats different.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2017, 12:40:17 am »
I use the rear brake at low speed like you and at high(er) speed when in a corner/bend and needing to drop some speed without the bike wanting to go off line by use of the front brake.  That's is/was the major complaint/trouble with the linked system until Kaw changed the ABS ECU linked calibration a coupla years back to minimise or eliminate this characteristic.  I haven't ridden a recalibrated model to find out but that's been reliably reported elsewhere.
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Offline Fais

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2017, 05:17:46 am »
East TN rider here - we have lunch in Fontana more than once a week. Dragon - Moonshiner - Dragon and back to the shop.

Had an '09 and now a '14 and I love the linked brakes. I ride hard - and don't use the rear very often going to lunch. But after? If I'm feeling lazy (full stomach lol) I only use the rear brake. Without the linked I wouldn't be able to do that safely and quickly.

I have that stretch of road memorized so maybe that helps a lot - and the Connie is quick but not (nearly) as quick as other bikes I ride. She's made for comfort and with the linked even more so. My right hand sometimes gets tired of hundreds of curves slowing 675lbs plus me. She's a dream bike and the linked works for me.

My $0.02   - I say you'll get used to it and might start to like it. Hey, let's ride sometime  :motonoises: I live in downtown Knoxville - Old North to be exact - and the shop is in Maryville.

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Offline alingo2001

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 09:36:15 am »
I was just out in Maggie Valley this weekend for a rally. Rode the Dragon on the way up on Wednesday. I was on my Victory Magnum then. Would like to try it on the Concours. I live just southeast of Nashville.

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 04:37:03 pm »
I use the rear brake at low speed like you and at high(er) speed when in a corner/bend and needing to drop some speed without the bike wanting to go off line by use of the front brake.  That's is/was the major complaint/trouble with the linked system until Kaw changed the ABS ECU linked calibration a coupla years back to minimise or eliminate this characteristic.  I haven't ridden a recalibrated model to find out but that's been reliably reported elsewhere.
Hmm.. not sure how to respond to that statement.
I  never touch the rear brake- I gear down of course and use engine braking and also practice Trail Braking when entering  a turn (I want the suspension to be compressed and remain compressed going into a turn- rear brakes cant do that---were talking about  hard  cornering )
Trail Braking is not really something to be used for  street riding but I still practice but I was taught on the track to never touch the rear brake... of course we did not have anti lock brakes  or linked brakes in those days so I maybe a throwback cuz  I am old
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:42:11 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 10:22:21 pm »
........so I maybe a throwback cuz  I am old


Hey, I resemble that remark.   :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline Road Runner

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2017, 01:24:14 am »
I never use the back brake on a street bike anyway---unless  maybe I am below 3   miles an hour.  You guys use the back brake for normal riding?   :o
Dirt bike-- thats different.

Daytona_Mike, others: A couple of years ago switched to my current '13 Concours from a cruiser bike. On the cruiser I found it much easier to make a U-turn by use of throttle control, clutch and only rear brake. I could make pretty tight U-turns in this manner.

Should we not use the rear brake only if making a U-turn or say a turn onto a road requiring a > 90 deg turn? I'm interested to hear how others handle such situations. Always learning ... thanks
David L. Hamil
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2017, 01:44:30 am »
The R/F link is unlinked at low speed - someone will add the specific speed.   :)
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Offline Vader

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 07:04:34 pm »
12 mph per our owner's manual. I recently revisited the Kawasaki shop that bled my brakes for a retry. After riding the bike (which they did not do the first time) they acknowledge what I'm talking about (read my previous description) and said that it doesn't feel right but didn't know what else to do.
The rear brake pumps up on the second and third push of the brake. They promised me there is no air in the system, but I'm no rookie, and I know what air in the system feels like. I've bled brakes for most of my 61 years, starting with my dad when I couldn't hardly reach the pedal to pump them for him to bleed. I took it to Kawasaki because I've read that this system can be tricky to bleed. I guess I will try myself. After all, if you want something done right, .................

Offline Check6

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2017, 07:25:33 pm »
I ride a Harley with ABS and am coming off of a sport bike that didn't have linked brakes or ABS.  I find that using the rear brake and anything above the 12 mph engagement point is a bit unsettling.  In fact, I don't like it at all.  I probably wouldn't mind it in a panic stop or trying to trim off some speed fast on the interstate, but normal day to day riding around town it feels like it's going to lock up the front tire.

I read above that you can "de-link" the brakes.  How?  And, does delinking them disable the ABS?  I would want to keep the ABS portion of it.


Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2017, 07:41:01 pm »
De-linking the brakes will remove the ABS function to the rear brake.
Basically you replace the rear line with one from a non-abs bike. NOT RECOMMENDED!
Until I got my '15 I just used the front brake lever when in "normal" braking.  This will actually use both the front and rear brakes simultaneously since they are "linked" without using the rear pedal.
Matt
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 08:19:01 pm »
A year ago, {after I bitched about the linked brakes} Matt advised me not to use the rear...
(after many years of a C-10 and dirt bikes) Took me a bit of effort to relearn, but it works perfectly!!!

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Offline Check6

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 08:53:56 pm »
De-linking the brakes will remove the ABS function to the rear brake.
Basically you replace the rear line with one from a non-abs bike. NOT RECOMMENDED!
Until I got my '15 I just used the front brake lever when in "normal" braking.  This will actually use both the front and rear brakes simultaneously since they are "linked" without using the rear pedal.
Matt

Thanks for the reply.  I will heed your advice and leave the bike as is.  Although, after 40+ years of riding it's a bit unnerving to me.  I suppose I'll need to get used to it.  I've always used the rear brake to drift into corners or to straighten the bike up when I need it.  Not on a Harley, of course, but old habits are going to be hard to throw off until I get used to this thing.  I've owned two ST1300's (2003 & 2007) in the past and rode those until the wheels fell off.  I do like the electric-like torque and acceleration of the Connie in comparison.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 10:58:52 pm »
De-linking the brakes does not necessarily remove ABS function to the rear - it depends on how it is done.


see reply 13

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2012-concours-brakes/msg550315/#msg550315

and

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.120

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Offline Gsled

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 01:34:16 am »
  This de-linking procedure works according to the people that have done this. The only reservation I have is unless you are thorough when doing a fluid flush you have a reservoir of dirty/contaminated fluid residing in the blocked off circuit.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2017, 04:13:36 am »
Being thorough, as you say, would include flushing the blocked off circuit.    :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 02:03:47 pm »
Guys, last weekend while on a long ride, I was testing out my brakes (bled them before I took the bike in for repairs for the transmission, long story most of you already know about).

The rear does brake, but it feels so weak! Is it just me? Also the engaging point feels pretty deep, maybe I need to adjust it? The linking part works just fine, I do feel when pressing the rear lever, how it eventually engages the front.

Thoughts!?
Best,

JD

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Offline ChrisM

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 05:03:41 pm »
Guys, last weekend while on a long ride, I was testing out my brakes (bled them before I took the bike in for repairs for the transmission, long story most of you already know about).

The rear does brake, but it feels so weak! Is it just me? Also the engaging point feels pretty deep, maybe I need to adjust it? The linking part works just fine, I do feel when pressing the rear lever, how it eventually engages the front.

Thoughts!?

Mine are exactly the same as you describe.  Recently bled as well.

Offline Bigfoot_16

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2017, 03:20:05 am »
I almost always use my front and rear brakes simultaneously and sometimes only use the rear brake by itself. I recently installed speed bleeders and after flushing the old fluid, noticed that my rear brake really made a difference when stopping, whereas before, it really didn't. The pedal doesn't travel nearly as far as it used to, so there was obviously air in the lines prior to bleeding. The next time I ride, I'll pay attention to the pedal travel while applying the rear brake alone and applying the front brake first, before the rear. I usually apply both brakes simultaneously and may not have observed the situation described earlier.

It's crazy to me how the Moto GP riders don't seem to use the rear brake at all. Sometimes when they trail brake into a corner, they lift the rear wheel. How can that not affect the geometry and attitude of the bike by changing where the bike is pointing? I notice they don't make jerky movements, either. They negotiate corners so smoothly it's amazing. Is it that they can sense that the rear tire is off of the ground and they smoothly let off of the front brake to settle the rear tire down again? I've never been to a track day event on my own bike and don't understand the secrets to riding so fast around curves.
Jim

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Offline curt1480

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Re: Rear brake pedal engagement point
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2017, 01:10:46 am »
Along the lines of brakes.  I noticed my front brake pulses a lot like a very strong abs working even when I apply the front brakes gently.  The bike is brand new with only 5000 miles on it.  I was wondering if it is normal, because I don't remember feeling the brakes do this in the first two or three thousand miles.  I also noticed the same thing about the rear brake.  You have to put a lot of force on it to get it to start responding.  I will try to adjust my rear brake linkage to see if that helps.  Hope to get this right before my next ride in the twisties.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 08:12:36 pm by curt1480 »