Author Topic: Rear brake  (Read 8462 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2017, 12:12:29 am »
Tim,
Your brakes linking effect is disabled below 12 MPH. I do not know of any changes in the programming after the lessening of the linking effects done for the '15 model year which I own. I would think that the changes in braking feel you describe would be attributed to the programming and operation of the linking of the brakes at speed and not from some other cause as they change as speed changes. Air in the system or another fault would not have a corresponding change in feel due only to a variance in vehicle speed.
Matt
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 12:38:20 am »
Freddy,
I know Kawi is " looking into" the ABS module failures. So far there are only a few that we know of. I don't see any major manufacturer of anything admitting any liability to the public, ever. Especially on as limited a problem as this is seeming to be at this point.  I have been working in the automotive industry for many many years and I was a Master Certified Technician at one point. I have more than a little knowledge of braking systems and components as well as Anti-lock and traction controlling systems as well. There are always going to be failure points beyond the scope of detection by a computer that is "overseeing" the system. It is inevitable and unavoidable due in no small part to cost and complexity concerns. Not to mention that designing and building/integrating the type of monitoring system you are speaking of would cause a massive weight gain to the vehicle in question as well as a huge increase in cost to purchase said vehicle. In the mean time I will continue to REGULARLY, (yearly), change my brake fluid in the preventative effort of preserving my ABS systems' integrity and proper function.
    Up until the 1980's cars did not have an indicator of low brake fluid level.
    Our bikes still do not have this indicator on them. Since running out of fluid will cause the ABS to not function properly what code will this set as per the FSM? Is it an ABS fault or possibly only a cause of inoperable ABS system? See where I am going with this?  All the systems on these machines are integrated in some way. However, not all of them are interconnected as far as diagnostics and therefore are not able to be ruled out as "defective" simply because there is no "error message" displayed upon failure or loss of usability. The fact is that the ABS system is only used under "extreme" braking instances and since it is not normally "active" there would be no way to determine a specific failure point while in an inoperative state. Since your bike is one that does not have linking that rules out the cause being something related to the linked brakes and relegates it to a part that is mechanical in nature but may be actuated by an electronic part. Since there hasn't been a request for activation the computer does not see a "failure". This is how it was designed and manufactured as so many thousands of other units have been as well. 
Question for you;
How do you monitor ( for a failure, like sticking in its bore), a mechanical device that has no sensors or switches that is operated by an electrical device?
Matt
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 12:59:01 am »
Tim, you are correct that the latest models have a new 'map' for the ABS linked brake system and is a 'selling feature.'  The ZG14 has no delink-ability other than as Matt stated, unless done by physically changing hoses and stuff.  The soft feel you ask about is probably off-topic here as we are discussing the non-linked system of the early ZG14 rear brake failure.  May I suggest that you start a new thread and ask there. 
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 01:07:35 am »
Freddy,

<snip

Question for you;
How do you monitor ( for a failure, like sticking in its bore), a mechanical device that has no sensors or switches that is operated by an electrical device?
Matt

Matt, I respectfully refer you to the chart I posted and Service Codes 13, 14, 17, & 18 in particular.  As I stated earlier, the more serious issue is the failure of the warning system.  If you don't accept that, that's ok by me, but Kaw knows of it and that's what matters.   :beerchug:
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline LakeTrax

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2017, 06:00:15 pm »
I don't know if this matters, but doing the following makes me feel better anyways... :??:

I have a gravel parking lot at my shop and just about every time I return from a ride, I goose the throttle until the TC kicks in then I apply the rear brake hard enough to lock the rear wheel and feel the ABS system activate. Then I park it-

From what we have heard, stuck valves inside the ABS pump are supposedly the root cause of the problem being discussed here. I can't help but wonder if the few failures we know about were caused because the valves inside the pumps were never even activated. Meaning the ABS system was never activated and the pump's valves never even opened/closed. This would mean that no brake fluid, or "fresh" fluid, ever got cycled/transferred thru the pump wouldn't it? Dunno...
Would be cool if MOB dissects one so we definitively know exactly how the valves & passages affect brake fluid flow thru these pumps-

This is all just a thought..... And me fooling around with TC/ABS in gravel is just something I would do anyways.
However, I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of C14s out there that have never even had their ABS systems activated, at any speed.
I just wonder if the few ABS pump failures we know about fall into this category.?

Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2017, 06:31:04 pm »
I don't know if this matters, but doing the following makes me feel better anyways... :??:

I have a gravel parking lot at my shop and just about every time I return from a ride, I goose the throttle until the TC kicks in then I apply the rear brake hard enough to lock the rear wheel and feel the ABS system activate. Then I park it-

From what we have heard, stuck valves inside the ABS pump are supposedly the root cause of the problem being discussed here. I can't help but wonder if the few failures we know about were caused because the valves inside the pumps were never even activated. Meaning the ABS system was never activated and the pump's valves never even opened/closed. This would mean that no brake fluid, or "fresh" fluid, ever got cycled/transferred thru the pump wouldn't it? Dunno...
Would be cool if MOB dissects one so we definitively know exactly how the valves & passages affect brake fluid flow thru these pumps-

This is all just a thought..... And me fooling around with TC/ABS in gravel is just something I would do anyways.
However, I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of C14s out there that have never even had their ABS systems activated, at any speed.
I just wonder if the few ABS pump failures we know about fall into this category.?

You bring up good point. When I read your post I got to thinking...something I do sparingly:). I do recall that while on one of my first rides on my bike I did actuate the ABS due to a having to stop rather quickly. If my memory serves me correctly shortly after this, was when I started having issues with my rear brake. My bike is used and I wonder if the PO ever needed to actuate the ABS.
'08 Kawasaki Concours ABS; Decel Flashed by SiSF ("Gazelleda")
'09 Suzuki Burgman 650 Executive ("Super Scoot") [sold]

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2017, 10:56:32 pm »
Most owners I've asked about their trying ABS activation to get the feel of it say they have never done so.  I agree that it is wise to do so.

In my dealings with Kaw on the rear brake failure issue I was told by their Senior Technical Service Representative that the ABS valves and solenoids are activated/cycled/tested every time the bike is started and ridden the first few yards.  If the system is fault free the ABS light is extinguished.  WRONG!

Our problem and Kaw's (to a much lesser extent) is that the ABS light is extinguished even when there is a fault with the valves.  The warning system does NOT  (edit)  function as detailed in the FSM.  Kaw knows this as I stated above. 

What happens if the failure occurs in the front circuit?  I've not seen any reports of this.  Perhaps no-one has lived to do so.

Always perform test applications of the brakes at every start after the ABS light is extinguished for you own safety. 

Note: All the above information applies to the early, non-linked brake system only.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 03:55:31 am by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline Gsled

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2017, 11:49:01 pm »
  Here is another piece of info I have been hesitant to share. In my 30 years working in parts and service of a high end European car dealerships we came across a spate of " similar " failures. Rear brakes would lock. Some cars came in with rears so hot wheel paint was coming off, rear calipers and rotors toast! In our instances it was a master cylinder problem, a check valve for the rear circuit would freeze close after brake application and not bleed pressure off.
  Now I know this is kinda apples and oranges but bear with me because the chemistry and internal structures are the same. Cars have this valve at the m/c to reduce pedal thump during ABS actuation. Of course the manufacturer wanted all instances returned regardless of warranty situation to investigate causation.
  After about a year-year and a half of sporadic problems the factory comes back with a contamination explanation. It seems tech's and the few owners that did their own maintenance were using brake cleaner to clean the fluid reservoir out and this was working down strea and damaging the afore mentioned check valve. This problem was market wide for this brand and not regional( or just our area of influence ). No explanation of why just rears were affected.
  I know I'm taking a single dual circuit m/c compared to two single circuit m/c but again the chemistry and internal component are similar.
  So MOB if you get a unit to dissect maybe something to look into.
  Not saying this is the issue just sharing some info.

Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2017, 02:05:23 am »
Does anyone happen to know what model year ZZR 1400 or ZX-14 ABS pump will fit on an 08 C-14 ABS?  Trying to open up my options on Ebay.  TIA! :great:
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2017, 02:50:48 am »
Any of the earlier ABS models to about 2009 fit, possibly even the later ones.  They will all physically fit (4 pipe unit) but the tone rings may be a different count on the later ones - I haven't down the comparison yet to confirm.  The series 1 ZG14 has 60 hole front & 50 hole rear tone rings (the series 2 with linked brakes has 48 & 45 just so you know)   The ZZR14 does not have linked brakes but, as I say, the tone rings may have changed, which of course changes the calibration of the ABS ECU.  I have found that tho there are different part numbers for the same item on the ZG14 & ZZR14/ZX14 they are often interchangeable.  If you can identify an ABS unit with that came off a bike with 60&50 tone rings it will work for you.  Sometimes an ebay seller shows the items of interest together or in related adverts. 

Hope this helps.

All the above is to the best of my knowledge and actual hands-on experience but as we know, you can't believe everything you read on the net.

 :beerchug:

EDIT after more research:  The European ZZR1400 2006-2011 has an interchangeable ABS unit with the ZG1400.  The 2012-2015 European ZZR1400 has a 4-pipe ABS unit which looks identical to the earlier model HOWEVER it uses the same sensor rings (48/45) as the series 2 (linked brakes) ZG1400, which means that the ABS unit is calibrated to NOT recognise the 60/50 sensor rings and therefore is not interchangeable with the series 1 ZG1400 (non-linked brakes), though it will physically fit the bike and the harness plug. The 2012-2015 unit MAY function on on a series 1 zg1400 IF the stock 60/50 sensor rings are replaced with 48/45 sensor rings which are matched to the 2012-2015 ZZR1400 ABS unit.

The above is to the best of my knowledge.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 04:25:42 am by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2017, 03:39:22 am »
..In my dealings with Kaw on the rear brake failure issue I was told by their Senior Technical Service Representative that the ABS valves and solenoids are activated/cycled/tested every time the bike is started and ridden the first few yards.  If the system is fault free the ABS light is extinguished.  WRONG!

Our problem and Kaw's (to a much lesser extent) is that the ABS light is extinguished even when there is a fault with the valves.  The warning system does function as detailed in the FSM.  Kaw knows this as I stated above. 


Nope.

I have to reel in my arrogance, and knowledge on this posting, and stick to facts, but I have to say this:

yes, you are on a different continent than I am, but the features of the bike as far as safety, are worldwide. Period.
Emissions and associated programs are the ONLY differences between all bike introduced during the cycle the o/p's bike was manufactured in, and in  reality, it holds true thru today, no differences in operational safeguards have been changed.

You seem to be the harbinger of faulty brake issue, and I have followed you from your first posting on it's surfacing for yo, Unfortunately, there are so few issues I personally have seen, or been asked about, that I can say these ones that pop up, ON OLDER GEN I BIKES, are extremely rare, yes... they do surface, but in such a low incidence I truthfully cannot see a "pattern"

I admire your tenacity on pushing this into some safety issue, but in reality, you are not on the continent, therefore. doesn't meant much to our TSA.

So.. Where does this all lead ?

Every machine delivered to a customer can fail, I do not see a "pattern" of failure on gen I C14's, I see a "few", I can spout off about a bizillion other "issues" people have had, in great numbers, abut other material and mechanical parts, but this is not one I can truthfully point my finger at, and stand up in court, and say "it was always a problem, and should have been fixed.."
Just have not seen enough instances of it to red flag it, or carry the banner as you seem to be doing.

now, when you harvest all the reports of various failures, and document ALL of them, and keep a database of them ALL, send it to me, I'll compare my notes.

relax, let the o/p pursue this a bit, and allow him to see what transpires,   non of this angst you bear assist in his solution.

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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2017, 03:53:05 am »
Points taken MOP.   :beerchug:

OP must to be lurking somewhere around no doubt but Smitty asked an interesting  question.
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2017, 04:21:20 am »
Points taken MOP.   :beerchug:

OP must to be lurking somewhere around no doubt but Smitty asked an interesting  question.

no prob Freddy,  :beerchug: :beerchug:
wasn't meant ans a chide, just as a "we have not seen enough here to raise the red flag" thing..

If you would, please send me the contact info, phone number, etc,.) for the rep(s) inside Kaw you specifically spoke with, via a P/m.

I keep a database of this for private use, not to be shared, and have since I was the Tech Editor and began the campaign for keeping the group informed and the company in touch of our needs

thanks in advance

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2017, 04:51:45 am »
PM sent.   :beerchug:
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Offline Gscott

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2017, 05:52:55 pm »
OP here bike is in shop, they got rear brake to lock took master cylinder apart checked return found nothing wrong cleaned put it back together locked up again they are calling KAW to see about putting on new master cylinder. Hopefully hear something next week.
 Smitty have not felt ABS kick in, definitely not when this started happening.     
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 05:59:13 pm by Gscott »

Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2017, 02:05:00 am »
I went out for a short ride today and really mashed on the rear brake to try and get it to activate the ABS.  I was able to get it turn on, but after that, the brake pedal would not go down again....Good news though, my financial advisor (wife) ok'd the funds to get the brake fixed.  So when I get back from a work trip this week I will take it in to be troubleshot/fixed.  Still gonna try to get Kaw to pay for it though.

MOB - If it turns out to be the ABS pump, I try to get the defective one so I can send it to you for dissection.  I would like to know what is causing this issue.

 :beerchug: 
'08 Kawasaki Concours ABS; Decel Flashed by SiSF ("Gazelleda")
'09 Suzuki Burgman 650 Executive ("Super Scoot") [sold]

Offline hlh1

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2017, 12:48:21 pm »
Hmmm...   Makes hesitate to try and activate my ABS...   :o
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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2017, 01:23:01 pm »
Do it. Better to know now than find out when you need it.

Offline hlh1

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2017, 02:11:55 pm »
Do it. Better to know now than find out when you need it.

good point. 
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Offline Gscott

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2017, 10:45:25 am »
Got bike back, they replaced  master cylinder didn't fix problem, went deeper to ABS pump that seems to have fixed problem.
 As we have temperature of low to mid 70s next week plan on giving rear brake a good workout.
Checked prices at Ron Ayres (since dealer would give out that info) 1700.00 in parts and 3.6 hours labor.     

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2017, 11:04:56 am »
Went deeper? Did they replace the pump?

Offline hlh1

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2017, 12:08:53 pm »
I tried out the rear brake ABS on my gravel drive way and it seemed to work fine. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 05:00:41 pm by hlh1 »
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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2017, 12:55:51 pm »
I think with the problems that have started to occur I would exercise the system regularly. 

Offline hlh1

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2017, 01:11:01 pm »
I think with the problems that have started to occur I would exercise the system regularly.

I need to try the front brake, but just can't make myself try to lock it up.   :-\
92 GW1500A, 06 WeeStrom, 09 C14 ABS, 09 C14,


Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2017, 03:59:27 pm »
I am taking my bike in tomorrow to get my rear brake fixed.  Still going to see if I can get Kaw to pay for it since others have been successful.  Its worth a shot since its an expensive fix.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 08:46:54 pm by Smitty »
'08 Kawasaki Concours ABS; Decel Flashed by SiSF ("Gazelleda")
'09 Suzuki Burgman 650 Executive ("Super Scoot") [sold]