Author Topic: Rear brake  (Read 8409 times)

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Offline Gscott

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Rear brake
« on: January 07, 2017, 02:29:41 pm »
About 2 weeks ago rear brake pedal stuck in down position not enough to look rear tire but very tough to move bike out of traffic, kept on kicking on pedal after 6 or so tries it came loose. For the rest of ride front brake use only, got home took pedal assembly off and apart saw pedal and bushing almost dry with no grease wiped clean regreased all worked well till 2 days ago, now pedal has no freeplay is as if it is stuck in applied position but rear tire still turns with some resistance by hand on centerstand. Yes fluid was replaced and system bleed, was thinking of pulling caliper off and looking there next.
 Any other suggestions out there?
 thanks
                                                                                          NEW INFORMATION
 Tried to use Mghity-vac to bleed rear caliper 20 inches vacuum no fluid pulled just holding steady vacuum both bleeding locations, also still turning wheel by hand putting pressure on brake pedal no effect on spinning wheel so brake pedal not moving any fluid at all.
 Would bad ABS pump throw a code? No code showing up.


                                                                                 UPDATED POST 44
                                                                             



         
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 10:53:31 am by Gscott, Reason: Updated »

Offline gPink

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 02:38:16 pm »
abs?

Offline Gscott

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 03:15:00 pm »
Yes ABS 09

Offline DiverRay

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 04:08:54 pm »
I know there was a recall on my '11 for the rear brake pedal. Check with the dealer near you and see if it also applied to your bike.
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Online Just Cliff

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 04:56:01 pm »
Bad ABS pump would be my thought.

Cliff   :beerchug:

Offline Gscott

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2017, 06:01:11 pm »
all recalls done
 ABS pump hope not hopefully ext. warranty covers if this the problem.

Offline gPink

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 06:04:28 pm »
Your warranty might have just paid for itself.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2017, 08:16:51 pm »
There were actually 2 rear brake retrofit recalls, contact dealer again, and make sure they were both completed....
I had the dreaded "pebble" wedged lockup prior to first recall, raosted the disc and caliper, all was replaced under recall warranty, which covers bike beyound the normal warranties...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline kawcon14rider

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 01:46:36 pm »
ABS pump! You are the 4th one I have heard about. Take the bike to the dealer ASAP not safe to ride, rear wheel could lockup. Do a search you should findd more imfo on this. Cost me $1500 to fix my bike. >:(
Sammie Timmons  COG# 8557  CDA#0291  AMA# 818592 SCAAD 74 GT380 totaled  74 GT750 totaled  80 GS850 totaled  05 Vulcan 750 traded  08 C14 my baby  08 Versys (my wife's) 2012 Ninja 250 [thanks Kawasaki for the gift]

Offline TimB_PA

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 07:46:26 pm »
I wouldn't have thought that any manufacturer would design an abs system that would do anything to braking except default to the non-absorbent operation. Should be perfectly safe to ride a bike even if the abs pump fails.

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 07:55:09 pm »
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 10:01:52 pm »
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

Matt, have you had a chance to disassemble a unit yet to examine the guts?
I asked SISF to send me the one he had sitting, but so far he has not sent it, and I have no issue with it, but would like to have a defective unit to do a post mortem on, having worked for a hydraulic valve manufacturer and I have a decent education on the circuits, flow and diverting sections, and solenoids involved. I've done some pretty exotic HIC control valves in the past, this unit is basically a diverting valve controlled by sensing a differential wheel speed. Something as simple as a small piece of grit, or a single bad o-ring could cause the failure in a completely sealed system like this.

anybody that has a failed unit in hand, please note, I would like to have it for examination, but I'm sure the dealerships brush them back to Kaw immediately when they replace one.. if you have to pay to get one replaced, then the old defective unit is yours, so don't give it to them if you pay out of pocket for a complete replacement..... share it with us here, that can technically dissect it, and examine to find the root cause. If you do have one, please don't take it apart either, I would like one in "as removed" state.. un adultered, for exam.

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Offline kawcon14rider

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 10:30:01 pm »
Man of Blues send me imfo on where to send in a private email and I will get mine to you ASAP. :great: Would like to buy a couple of your Orings if you have any left.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 10:33:32 pm by kawcon14rider »
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 11:23:42 pm »
Here's another report of a handful.  The more serious issue for me is that the warning system is defective.  Kaw is ignoring this.

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=64468.0


MOB  :PDT_Armataz_01_37:   It would be great to pin point the cause. 

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Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 02:24:08 pm »
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

I feel like this is what my 08' ABS w/33K miles is doing.  I can still operate the rear brake, but it is very hard to push down.  And sometimes it seems like it frees up and is easy to press again.  I am not sure how frequently the PO changed out fluids, but I have tried bleeding the rear and found the bleeder closest to the wheel would not bleed any fluid (used MITYVAC @ 20psi vacuum).  I have taken my bike to the shop and they told me that the master cylinder was working correctly and that they would dig further to get the pump; unfortunately my budget is tight right now, so I couldn't afford to go further.  I do not get any warning lights from the system either. Front brakes still work like a champ.  Does this sound like a possible stuck valve or could it be a frozen piston in the caliper or am I way off?   
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Offline Conrad

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 03:49:14 pm »
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

I feel like this is what my 08' ABS w/33K miles is doing.  I can still operate the rear brake, but it is very hard to push down.  And sometimes it seems like it frees up and is easy to press again.  I am not sure how frequently the PO changed out fluids, but I have tried bleeding the rear and found the bleeder closest to the wheel would not bleed any fluid (used MITYVAC @ 20psi vacuum).  I have taken my bike to the shop and they told me that the master cylinder was working correctly and that they would dig further to get the pump; unfortunately my budget is tight right now, so I couldn't afford to go further.  I do not get any warning lights from the system either. Front brakes still work like a champ.  Does this sound like a possible stuck valve or could it be a frozen piston in the caliper or am I way off?   

Just tossing this out there. I've bled the my hydraulics on my bike three times thus far and each time I was able to get both the rear brake bleeders to bleed. Any chance the bleeder itself is the culprit in your case? 
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Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2017, 04:56:18 pm »
It could be.  I may try to take a look at it this weekend if I get some time.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2017, 09:32:17 pm »
If the outer rear bleeder is ok the inner one is probably plugged.  The rear brake issue sounds like the ABS unit.  Get a Kaw dealer to report it to Kaw, who have replaced (supplied) a handful free of charge.  Also please report it to NHTSA as some have done.  The more reports the more likely something will get done to rectify this major safety issue.
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 01:12:28 am »
Freddy,
The warning system is not defective. It is merely not designed to pick up a MECHANICAL failure point. Most electronics do not detect mechanical failures unless it causes a symptom that is detectable by the monitoring system. Early ABS systems did not illuminate a light when the master cylinder failed. Is that a sign of a "defective" ABS system?  No.  It is simply a failure of a non- monitored system related to the ABS.
Matt
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 03:30:13 am »
I can't agree Matt.  That's not what the chart from the FSM states, as shown in a link of mine above and now displayed below.  The master cyl has nothing to do with this issue. 

Kaw in Australia has acknowledge the failure of the warning system but have been able to get around it because of confusion in the European standards (upon which the Australian standards/regulations are based) relating to ABS systems.  There are 3 versions or amendments of those standards, one of which has a loophole which suits Kaw and this very failure of the warning system and they are entitled (according to the Australian regulators) to select which of the 3 amendments the ZG1400 series 1 system complies with.  I started on this crusade 3 years ago and after almost 2 years that's how it ended.  I got it in black and white from the regulator.

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Offline Smitty

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 02:40:27 pm »
If the outer rear bleeder is ok the inner one is probably plugged.  The rear brake issue sounds like the ABS unit.  Get a Kaw dealer to report it to Kaw, who have replaced (supplied) a handful free of charge.  Also please report it to NHTSA as some have done.  The more reports the more likely something will get done to rectify this major safety issue.

Freddy,
I have reported it Kaw and the NHTSA.  Kaw won't do anything until the mechanic reports that there is an issue with the ABS pump.  I was hesitant to have the mechanic keep digging to get to the pump and racking up labor hours and then find out that Kaw would not pay for any of it outside of warranty.  I feel like its a roll of the dice because only a handful of people are getting it paid for.  I decided to tell the mechanic to stop so I could save up enough $ in case the above scenario happens.  That way if I have to pay, I am ready and don't have to leave my bike stranded with the dealer.  Next time I will buy a bike with warranty left on it :-[ 
'08 Kawasaki Concours ABS; Decel Flashed by SiSF ("Gazelleda")
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 10:02:09 pm »
Good that it's reported.  Getting to eyeball the pump is futile as the problem is within, hence MOB's desire to dissect one.  It's the operational behaviour of the system which indicates failure.  If Kaw won't cover the cost of a new one there are used ones around, especially in Europe where their ZZR14 (ZX14) came with ABS as standard - sure, the part number is different but they are interchangeable with the ZG14.
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 11:17:45 pm »
Freddy,
So you are saying that every single possible failure point within the ENTIRE braking system MUST be identified by one of those 17 codes and corresponding light conditions? NOT IN THIS LIFETIME. Not even in the most current ABS systems. EVERY single failure point in that list is ELECTRICAL in nature. That in itself specifically EXCLUDES ALL mechanical failures from being detected. As per the FSM! Thank you for so perfectly demonstrating my earlier statement. My statement about the MC was only in recognizing that is a major part of the braking system but is NOT detected in ANY way electronically when it fails.
Matt

Where in writing has Kawasaki acknowledged failure of the system? I want to see the specific writing and not just "my dealer said" stuff. No way they would open the door to massive international lawsuits by being so incredibly stupid like that.

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Offline Freddy

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 11:40:11 pm »
I'm here to help those that are seeking help, not argue with folks.   :beerchug:

I have such correspondence with Kaw Australia in relation to the rear brake failure on my 2007 built bike, but because I'm in Australia it's irrelevant here/there.  Because the failure is so rare nothing more than their 'monitoring the situation' has taken place to date, while they dissect the odd failed unit which they said is also happening on other Kaw models with non-linked brakes and report to Japan - well that's what they told me on the phone. 

Ride safe and be happy - well, I am as it's summer here.   :)
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Offline TimB_PA

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Re: Rear brake
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2017, 12:05:40 am »
Don't know if this matters as I am new to the C14 and my bike is a 2016 but here goes. At speed my rear brake feel s kind of stuff and like the arm is too high. However at lower speeds it feels really soft and drops much further.
Now my understanding is that this is the new map on the brakes which drops the front/rear link.
Could this be what I said causing the soft feel? I should add that there is NO change to the front brake feel when it de-links.
My RT's link would disengage automatically if you braked hard with the rear pedal, but I don't think the Connie does. You'd get push back from the pedal when this happened. Just wondering if the aforementioned concern is really being caused by link disengagement and not the ABS?