Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Gscott on January 07, 2017, 02:29:41 pm

Title: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on January 07, 2017, 02:29:41 pm
About 2 weeks ago rear brake pedal stuck in down position not enough to look rear tire but very tough to move bike out of traffic, kept on kicking on pedal after 6 or so tries it came loose. For the rest of ride front brake use only, got home took pedal assembly off and apart saw pedal and bushing almost dry with no grease wiped clean regreased all worked well till 2 days ago, now pedal has no freeplay is as if it is stuck in applied position but rear tire still turns with some resistance by hand on centerstand. Yes fluid was replaced and system bleed, was thinking of pulling caliper off and looking there next.
 Any other suggestions out there?
 thanks
                                                                                          NEW INFORMATION
 Tried to use Mghity-vac to bleed rear caliper 20 inches vacuum no fluid pulled just holding steady vacuum both bleeding locations, also still turning wheel by hand putting pressure on brake pedal no effect on spinning wheel so brake pedal not moving any fluid at all.
 Would bad ABS pump throw a code? No code showing up.


                                                                                 UPDATED POST 44
                                                                             



         
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on January 07, 2017, 02:38:16 pm
abs?
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on January 07, 2017, 03:15:00 pm
Yes ABS 09
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: DiverRay on January 07, 2017, 04:08:54 pm
I know there was a recall on my '11 for the rear brake pedal. Check with the dealer near you and see if it also applied to your bike.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Just Cliff on January 07, 2017, 04:56:01 pm
Bad ABS pump would be my thought.

Cliff   :beerchug:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on January 07, 2017, 06:01:11 pm
all recalls done
 ABS pump hope not hopefully ext. warranty covers if this the problem.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on January 07, 2017, 06:04:28 pm
Your warranty might have just paid for itself.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 07, 2017, 08:16:51 pm
There were actually 2 rear brake retrofit recalls, contact dealer again, and make sure they were both completed....
I had the dreaded "pebble" wedged lockup prior to first recall, raosted the disc and caliper, all was replaced under recall warranty, which covers bike beyound the normal warranties...
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: kawcon14rider on January 08, 2017, 01:46:36 pm
ABS pump! You are the 4th one I have heard about. Take the bike to the dealer ASAP not safe to ride, rear wheel could lockup. Do a search you should findd more imfo on this. Cost me $1500 to fix my bike. >:(
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: TimB_PA on January 08, 2017, 07:46:26 pm
I wouldn't have thought that any manufacturer would design an abs system that would do anything to braking except default to the non-absorbent operation. Should be perfectly safe to ride a bike even if the abs pump fails.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on January 08, 2017, 07:55:09 pm
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 08, 2017, 10:01:52 pm
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

Matt, have you had a chance to disassemble a unit yet to examine the guts?
I asked SISF to send me the one he had sitting, but so far he has not sent it, and I have no issue with it, but would like to have a defective unit to do a post mortem on, having worked for a hydraulic valve manufacturer and I have a decent education on the circuits, flow and diverting sections, and solenoids involved. I've done some pretty exotic HIC control valves in the past, this unit is basically a diverting valve controlled by sensing a differential wheel speed. Something as simple as a small piece of grit, or a single bad o-ring could cause the failure in a completely sealed system like this.

anybody that has a failed unit in hand, please note, I would like to have it for examination, but I'm sure the dealerships brush them back to Kaw immediately when they replace one.. if you have to pay to get one replaced, then the old defective unit is yours, so don't give it to them if you pay out of pocket for a complete replacement..... share it with us here, that can technically dissect it, and examine to find the root cause. If you do have one, please don't take it apart either, I would like one in "as removed" state.. un adultered, for exam.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: kawcon14rider on January 08, 2017, 10:30:01 pm
Man of Blues send me imfo on where to send in a private email and I will get mine to you ASAP. :great: Would like to buy a couple of your Orings if you have any left.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 08, 2017, 11:23:42 pm
Here's another report of a handful.  The more serious issue for me is that the warning system is defective.  Kaw is ignoring this.

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=64468.0 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=64468.0)


MOB  :PDT_Armataz_01_37:   It would be great to pin point the cause. 

Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 10, 2017, 02:24:08 pm
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

I feel like this is what my 08' ABS w/33K miles is doing.  I can still operate the rear brake, but it is very hard to push down.  And sometimes it seems like it frees up and is easy to press again.  I am not sure how frequently the PO changed out fluids, but I have tried bleeding the rear and found the bleeder closest to the wheel would not bleed any fluid (used MITYVAC @ 20psi vacuum).  I have taken my bike to the shop and they told me that the master cylinder was working correctly and that they would dig further to get the pump; unfortunately my budget is tight right now, so I couldn't afford to go further.  I do not get any warning lights from the system either. Front brakes still work like a champ.  Does this sound like a possible stuck valve or could it be a frozen piston in the caliper or am I way off?   
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Conrad on January 10, 2017, 03:49:14 pm
The problem is not the pump failure. The problem is a valve sticking and not allowing the pressure to release. Most likely this is caused by not changing the fluid regularly. This allows excess moisture build-up and leads to corrosion of internals.
Matt

I feel like this is what my 08' ABS w/33K miles is doing.  I can still operate the rear brake, but it is very hard to push down.  And sometimes it seems like it frees up and is easy to press again.  I am not sure how frequently the PO changed out fluids, but I have tried bleeding the rear and found the bleeder closest to the wheel would not bleed any fluid (used MITYVAC @ 20psi vacuum).  I have taken my bike to the shop and they told me that the master cylinder was working correctly and that they would dig further to get the pump; unfortunately my budget is tight right now, so I couldn't afford to go further.  I do not get any warning lights from the system either. Front brakes still work like a champ.  Does this sound like a possible stuck valve or could it be a frozen piston in the caliper or am I way off?   

Just tossing this out there. I've bled the my hydraulics on my bike three times thus far and each time I was able to get both the rear brake bleeders to bleed. Any chance the bleeder itself is the culprit in your case? 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 10, 2017, 04:56:18 pm
It could be.  I may try to take a look at it this weekend if I get some time.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 10, 2017, 09:32:17 pm
If the outer rear bleeder is ok the inner one is probably plugged.  The rear brake issue sounds like the ABS unit.  Get a Kaw dealer to report it to Kaw, who have replaced (supplied) a handful free of charge.  Also please report it to NHTSA as some have done.  The more reports the more likely something will get done to rectify this major safety issue.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on January 11, 2017, 01:12:28 am
Freddy,
The warning system is not defective. It is merely not designed to pick up a MECHANICAL failure point. Most electronics do not detect mechanical failures unless it causes a symptom that is detectable by the monitoring system. Early ABS systems did not illuminate a light when the master cylinder failed. Is that a sign of a "defective" ABS system?  No.  It is simply a failure of a non- monitored system related to the ABS.
Matt
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 11, 2017, 03:30:13 am
I can't agree Matt.  That's not what the chart from the FSM states, as shown in a link of mine above and now displayed below.  The master cyl has nothing to do with this issue. 

Kaw in Australia has acknowledge the failure of the warning system but have been able to get around it because of confusion in the European standards (upon which the Australian standards/regulations are based) relating to ABS systems.  There are 3 versions or amendments of those standards, one of which has a loophole which suits Kaw and this very failure of the warning system and they are entitled (according to the Australian regulators) to select which of the 3 amendments the ZG1400 series 1 system complies with.  I started on this crusade 3 years ago and after almost 2 years that's how it ended.  I got it in black and white from the regulator.

(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab313/Freddy1333/ABSfaults_zpsvl5nqqtt.jpg)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 11, 2017, 02:40:27 pm
If the outer rear bleeder is ok the inner one is probably plugged.  The rear brake issue sounds like the ABS unit.  Get a Kaw dealer to report it to Kaw, who have replaced (supplied) a handful free of charge.  Also please report it to NHTSA as some have done.  The more reports the more likely something will get done to rectify this major safety issue.

Freddy,
I have reported it Kaw and the NHTSA.  Kaw won't do anything until the mechanic reports that there is an issue with the ABS pump.  I was hesitant to have the mechanic keep digging to get to the pump and racking up labor hours and then find out that Kaw would not pay for any of it outside of warranty.  I feel like its a roll of the dice because only a handful of people are getting it paid for.  I decided to tell the mechanic to stop so I could save up enough $ in case the above scenario happens.  That way if I have to pay, I am ready and don't have to leave my bike stranded with the dealer.  Next time I will buy a bike with warranty left on it :-[ 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 11, 2017, 10:02:09 pm
Good that it's reported.  Getting to eyeball the pump is futile as the problem is within, hence MOB's desire to dissect one.  It's the operational behaviour of the system which indicates failure.  If Kaw won't cover the cost of a new one there are used ones around, especially in Europe where their ZZR14 (ZX14) came with ABS as standard - sure, the part number is different but they are interchangeable with the ZG14.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on January 11, 2017, 11:17:45 pm
Freddy,
So you are saying that every single possible failure point within the ENTIRE braking system MUST be identified by one of those 17 codes and corresponding light conditions? NOT IN THIS LIFETIME. Not even in the most current ABS systems. EVERY single failure point in that list is ELECTRICAL in nature. That in itself specifically EXCLUDES ALL mechanical failures from being detected. As per the FSM! Thank you for so perfectly demonstrating my earlier statement. My statement about the MC was only in recognizing that is a major part of the braking system but is NOT detected in ANY way electronically when it fails.
Matt

Where in writing has Kawasaki acknowledged failure of the system? I want to see the specific writing and not just "my dealer said" stuff. No way they would open the door to massive international lawsuits by being so incredibly stupid like that.

Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 11, 2017, 11:40:11 pm
I'm here to help those that are seeking help, not argue with folks.   :beerchug:

I have such correspondence with Kaw Australia in relation to the rear brake failure on my 2007 built bike, but because I'm in Australia it's irrelevant here/there.  Because the failure is so rare nothing more than their 'monitoring the situation' has taken place to date, while they dissect the odd failed unit which they said is also happening on other Kaw models with non-linked brakes and report to Japan - well that's what they told me on the phone. 

Ride safe and be happy - well, I am as it's summer here.   :)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: TimB_PA on January 12, 2017, 12:05:40 am
Don't know if this matters as I am new to the C14 and my bike is a 2016 but here goes. At speed my rear brake feel s kind of stuff and like the arm is too high. However at lower speeds it feels really soft and drops much further.
Now my understanding is that this is the new map on the brakes which drops the front/rear link.
Could this be what I said causing the soft feel? I should add that there is NO change to the front brake feel when it de-links.
My RT's link would disengage automatically if you braked hard with the rear pedal, but I don't think the Connie does. You'd get push back from the pedal when this happened. Just wondering if the aforementioned concern is really being caused by link disengagement and not the ABS?
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on January 12, 2017, 12:12:29 am
Tim,
Your brakes linking effect is disabled below 12 MPH. I do not know of any changes in the programming after the lessening of the linking effects done for the '15 model year which I own. I would think that the changes in braking feel you describe would be attributed to the programming and operation of the linking of the brakes at speed and not from some other cause as they change as speed changes. Air in the system or another fault would not have a corresponding change in feel due only to a variance in vehicle speed.
Matt
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on January 12, 2017, 12:38:20 am
Freddy,
I know Kawi is " looking into" the ABS module failures. So far there are only a few that we know of. I don't see any major manufacturer of anything admitting any liability to the public, ever. Especially on as limited a problem as this is seeming to be at this point.  I have been working in the automotive industry for many many years and I was a Master Certified Technician at one point. I have more than a little knowledge of braking systems and components as well as Anti-lock and traction controlling systems as well. There are always going to be failure points beyond the scope of detection by a computer that is "overseeing" the system. It is inevitable and unavoidable due in no small part to cost and complexity concerns. Not to mention that designing and building/integrating the type of monitoring system you are speaking of would cause a massive weight gain to the vehicle in question as well as a huge increase in cost to purchase said vehicle. In the mean time I will continue to REGULARLY, (yearly), change my brake fluid in the preventative effort of preserving my ABS systems' integrity and proper function.
    Up until the 1980's cars did not have an indicator of low brake fluid level.
    Our bikes still do not have this indicator on them. Since running out of fluid will cause the ABS to not function properly what code will this set as per the FSM? Is it an ABS fault or possibly only a cause of inoperable ABS system? See where I am going with this?  All the systems on these machines are integrated in some way. However, not all of them are interconnected as far as diagnostics and therefore are not able to be ruled out as "defective" simply because there is no "error message" displayed upon failure or loss of usability. The fact is that the ABS system is only used under "extreme" braking instances and since it is not normally "active" there would be no way to determine a specific failure point while in an inoperative state. Since your bike is one that does not have linking that rules out the cause being something related to the linked brakes and relegates it to a part that is mechanical in nature but may be actuated by an electronic part. Since there hasn't been a request for activation the computer does not see a "failure". This is how it was designed and manufactured as so many thousands of other units have been as well. 
Question for you;
How do you monitor ( for a failure, like sticking in its bore), a mechanical device that has no sensors or switches that is operated by an electrical device?
Matt
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 12, 2017, 12:59:01 am
Tim, you are correct that the latest models have a new 'map' for the ABS linked brake system and is a 'selling feature.'  The ZG14 has no delink-ability other than as Matt stated, unless done by physically changing hoses and stuff.  The soft feel you ask about is probably off-topic here as we are discussing the non-linked system of the early ZG14 rear brake failure.  May I suggest that you start a new thread and ask there. 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 12, 2017, 01:07:35 am
Freddy,

<snip

Question for you;
How do you monitor ( for a failure, like sticking in its bore), a mechanical device that has no sensors or switches that is operated by an electrical device?
Matt

Matt, I respectfully refer you to the chart I posted and Service Codes 13, 14, 17, & 18 in particular.  As I stated earlier, the more serious issue is the failure of the warning system.  If you don't accept that, that's ok by me, but Kaw knows of it and that's what matters.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: LakeTrax on January 12, 2017, 06:00:15 pm
I don't know if this matters, but doing the following makes me feel better anyways... :??:

I have a gravel parking lot at my shop and just about every time I return from a ride, I goose the throttle until the TC kicks in then I apply the rear brake hard enough to lock the rear wheel and feel the ABS system activate. Then I park it-

From what we have heard, stuck valves inside the ABS pump are supposedly the root cause of the problem being discussed here. I can't help but wonder if the few failures we know about were caused because the valves inside the pumps were never even activated. Meaning the ABS system was never activated and the pump's valves never even opened/closed. This would mean that no brake fluid, or "fresh" fluid, ever got cycled/transferred thru the pump wouldn't it? Dunno...
Would be cool if MOB dissects one so we definitively know exactly how the valves & passages affect brake fluid flow thru these pumps-

This is all just a thought..... And me fooling around with TC/ABS in gravel is just something I would do anyways.
However, I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of C14s out there that have never even had their ABS systems activated, at any speed.
I just wonder if the few ABS pump failures we know about fall into this category.?
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 12, 2017, 06:31:04 pm
I don't know if this matters, but doing the following makes me feel better anyways... :??:

I have a gravel parking lot at my shop and just about every time I return from a ride, I goose the throttle until the TC kicks in then I apply the rear brake hard enough to lock the rear wheel and feel the ABS system activate. Then I park it-

From what we have heard, stuck valves inside the ABS pump are supposedly the root cause of the problem being discussed here. I can't help but wonder if the few failures we know about were caused because the valves inside the pumps were never even activated. Meaning the ABS system was never activated and the pump's valves never even opened/closed. This would mean that no brake fluid, or "fresh" fluid, ever got cycled/transferred thru the pump wouldn't it? Dunno...
Would be cool if MOB dissects one so we definitively know exactly how the valves & passages affect brake fluid flow thru these pumps-

This is all just a thought..... And me fooling around with TC/ABS in gravel is just something I would do anyways.
However, I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of C14s out there that have never even had their ABS systems activated, at any speed.
I just wonder if the few ABS pump failures we know about fall into this category.?

You bring up good point. When I read your post I got to thinking...something I do sparingly:). I do recall that while on one of my first rides on my bike I did actuate the ABS due to a having to stop rather quickly. If my memory serves me correctly shortly after this, was when I started having issues with my rear brake. My bike is used and I wonder if the PO ever needed to actuate the ABS.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 12, 2017, 10:56:32 pm
Most owners I've asked about their trying ABS activation to get the feel of it say they have never done so.  I agree that it is wise to do so.

In my dealings with Kaw on the rear brake failure issue I was told by their Senior Technical Service Representative that the ABS valves and solenoids are activated/cycled/tested every time the bike is started and ridden the first few yards.  If the system is fault free the ABS light is extinguished.  WRONG!

Our problem and Kaw's (to a much lesser extent) is that the ABS light is extinguished even when there is a fault with the valves.  The warning system does NOT  (edit)  function as detailed in the FSM.  Kaw knows this as I stated above. 

What happens if the failure occurs in the front circuit?  I've not seen any reports of this.  Perhaps no-one has lived to do so.

Always perform test applications of the brakes at every start after the ABS light is extinguished for you own safety. 

Note: All the above information applies to the early, non-linked brake system only.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gsled on January 12, 2017, 11:49:01 pm
  Here is another piece of info I have been hesitant to share. In my 30 years working in parts and service of a high end European car dealerships we came across a spate of " similar " failures. Rear brakes would lock. Some cars came in with rears so hot wheel paint was coming off, rear calipers and rotors toast! In our instances it was a master cylinder problem, a check valve for the rear circuit would freeze close after brake application and not bleed pressure off.
  Now I know this is kinda apples and oranges but bear with me because the chemistry and internal structures are the same. Cars have this valve at the m/c to reduce pedal thump during ABS actuation. Of course the manufacturer wanted all instances returned regardless of warranty situation to investigate causation.
  After about a year-year and a half of sporadic problems the factory comes back with a contamination explanation. It seems tech's and the few owners that did their own maintenance were using brake cleaner to clean the fluid reservoir out and this was working down strea and damaging the afore mentioned check valve. This problem was market wide for this brand and not regional( or just our area of influence ). No explanation of why just rears were affected.
  I know I'm taking a single dual circuit m/c compared to two single circuit m/c but again the chemistry and internal component are similar.
  So MOB if you get a unit to dissect maybe something to look into.
  Not saying this is the issue just sharing some info.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 14, 2017, 02:05:23 am
Does anyone happen to know what model year ZZR 1400 or ZX-14 ABS pump will fit on an 08 C-14 ABS?  Trying to open up my options on Ebay.  TIA! :great:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 14, 2017, 02:50:48 am
Any of the earlier ABS models to about 2009 fit, possibly even the later ones.  They will all physically fit (4 pipe unit) but the tone rings may be a different count on the later ones - I haven't down the comparison yet to confirm.  The series 1 ZG14 has 60 hole front & 50 hole rear tone rings (the series 2 with linked brakes has 48 & 45 just so you know)   The ZZR14 does not have linked brakes but, as I say, the tone rings may have changed, which of course changes the calibration of the ABS ECU.  I have found that tho there are different part numbers for the same item on the ZG14 & ZZR14/ZX14 they are often interchangeable.  If you can identify an ABS unit with that came off a bike with 60&50 tone rings it will work for you.  Sometimes an ebay seller shows the items of interest together or in related adverts. 

Hope this helps.

All the above is to the best of my knowledge and actual hands-on experience but as we know, you can't believe everything you read on the net.

 :beerchug:

EDIT after more research:  The European ZZR1400 2006-2011 has an interchangeable ABS unit with the ZG1400.  The 2012-2015 European ZZR1400 has a 4-pipe ABS unit which looks identical to the earlier model HOWEVER it uses the same sensor rings (48/45) as the series 2 (linked brakes) ZG1400, which means that the ABS unit is calibrated to NOT recognise the 60/50 sensor rings and therefore is not interchangeable with the series 1 ZG1400 (non-linked brakes), though it will physically fit the bike and the harness plug. The 2012-2015 unit MAY function on on a series 1 zg1400 IF the stock 60/50 sensor rings are replaced with 48/45 sensor rings which are matched to the 2012-2015 ZZR1400 ABS unit.

The above is to the best of my knowledge.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 14, 2017, 03:39:22 am
..In my dealings with Kaw on the rear brake failure issue I was told by their Senior Technical Service Representative that the ABS valves and solenoids are activated/cycled/tested every time the bike is started and ridden the first few yards.  If the system is fault free the ABS light is extinguished.  WRONG!

Our problem and Kaw's (to a much lesser extent) is that the ABS light is extinguished even when there is a fault with the valves.  The warning system does function as detailed in the FSM.  Kaw knows this as I stated above. 


Nope.

I have to reel in my arrogance, and knowledge on this posting, and stick to facts, but I have to say this:

yes, you are on a different continent than I am, but the features of the bike as far as safety, are worldwide. Period.
Emissions and associated programs are the ONLY differences between all bike introduced during the cycle the o/p's bike was manufactured in, and in  reality, it holds true thru today, no differences in operational safeguards have been changed.

You seem to be the harbinger of faulty brake issue, and I have followed you from your first posting on it's surfacing for yo, Unfortunately, there are so few issues I personally have seen, or been asked about, that I can say these ones that pop up, ON OLDER GEN I BIKES, are extremely rare, yes... they do surface, but in such a low incidence I truthfully cannot see a "pattern"

I admire your tenacity on pushing this into some safety issue, but in reality, you are not on the continent, therefore. doesn't meant much to our TSA.

So.. Where does this all lead ?

Every machine delivered to a customer can fail, I do not see a "pattern" of failure on gen I C14's, I see a "few", I can spout off about a bizillion other "issues" people have had, in great numbers, abut other material and mechanical parts, but this is not one I can truthfully point my finger at, and stand up in court, and say "it was always a problem, and should have been fixed.."
Just have not seen enough instances of it to red flag it, or carry the banner as you seem to be doing.

now, when you harvest all the reports of various failures, and document ALL of them, and keep a database of them ALL, send it to me, I'll compare my notes.

relax, let the o/p pursue this a bit, and allow him to see what transpires,   non of this angst you bear assist in his solution.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 14, 2017, 03:53:05 am
Points taken MOP.   :beerchug:

OP must to be lurking somewhere around no doubt but Smitty asked an interesting  question.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 14, 2017, 04:21:20 am
Points taken MOP.   :beerchug:

OP must to be lurking somewhere around no doubt but Smitty asked an interesting  question.

no prob Freddy,  :beerchug: :beerchug:
wasn't meant ans a chide, just as a "we have not seen enough here to raise the red flag" thing..

If you would, please send me the contact info, phone number, etc,.) for the rep(s) inside Kaw you specifically spoke with, via a P/m.

I keep a database of this for private use, not to be shared, and have since I was the Tech Editor and began the campaign for keeping the group informed and the company in touch of our needs

thanks in advance
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 14, 2017, 04:51:45 am
PM sent.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on January 14, 2017, 05:52:55 pm
OP here bike is in shop, they got rear brake to lock took master cylinder apart checked return found nothing wrong cleaned put it back together locked up again they are calling KAW to see about putting on new master cylinder. Hopefully hear something next week.
 Smitty have not felt ABS kick in, definitely not when this started happening.     
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 16, 2017, 02:05:00 am
I went out for a short ride today and really mashed on the rear brake to try and get it to activate the ABS.  I was able to get it turn on, but after that, the brake pedal would not go down again....Good news though, my financial advisor (wife) ok'd the funds to get the brake fixed.  So when I get back from a work trip this week I will take it in to be troubleshot/fixed.  Still gonna try to get Kaw to pay for it though.

MOB - If it turns out to be the ABS pump, I try to get the defective one so I can send it to you for dissection.  I would like to know what is causing this issue.

 :beerchug: 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: hlh1 on January 16, 2017, 12:48:21 pm
Hmmm...   Makes hesitate to try and activate my ABS...   :o
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on January 16, 2017, 01:23:01 pm
Do it. Better to know now than find out when you need it.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: hlh1 on January 16, 2017, 02:11:55 pm
Do it. Better to know now than find out when you need it.

good point. 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on January 27, 2017, 10:45:25 am
Got bike back, they replaced  master cylinder didn't fix problem, went deeper to ABS pump that seems to have fixed problem.
 As we have temperature of low to mid 70s next week plan on giving rear brake a good workout.
Checked prices at Ron Ayres (since dealer would give out that info) 1700.00 in parts and 3.6 hours labor.     
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on January 27, 2017, 11:04:56 am
Went deeper? Did they replace the pump?
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: hlh1 on January 27, 2017, 12:08:53 pm
I tried out the rear brake ABS on my gravel drive way and it seemed to work fine. 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on January 27, 2017, 12:55:51 pm
I think with the problems that have started to occur I would exercise the system regularly. 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: hlh1 on January 27, 2017, 01:11:01 pm
I think with the problems that have started to occur I would exercise the system regularly.

I need to try the front brake, but just can't make myself try to lock it up.   :-\
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 27, 2017, 03:59:27 pm
I am taking my bike in tomorrow to get my rear brake fixed.  Still going to see if I can get Kaw to pay for it since others have been successful.  Its worth a shot since its an expensive fix.

Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on January 31, 2017, 08:47:21 pm
Bike is in the shop quoted $1700-1800 parts and labor to replace the ABS pump :'(.  I will be getting the unserviceable pump back.  If someone on here wants to dissect, I will send.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 31, 2017, 09:53:44 pm
Didn't you ask the dealer to tell Kaw of the failure and ask them to fund it?

New is always better than used - if you can afford it.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 01, 2017, 01:17:32 am
Freddy,
Yes I did.  It seems as though I am going to have a fight with them about it.  It also seems like I am getting some run around.  The dealer told me the mechanic called Kawasaki, however I called Kawasaki myself and they said they had not talked to anyone from my dealership today.  So I called back the dealership and they kinda were a little weird about it and said they would call again.  I guess I have to physically be there to make sure they talk to someone at Kaw??  I feel like I am about to eat a big turd sandwich on this one. >:(
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 01, 2017, 01:28:09 am
Thanks for the feedback Smitty.  Good luck with that.

Dealers!!!    >:(
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 02, 2017, 10:06:45 pm
Got word yesterday that my local dealer won't work on my bike because it is outside of their skill set >:(  This is becoming a pain in the a$$.  Now I gotta go 1.5hrs to another dealership to have a qualified mechanic work on it. :beer:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: gPink on February 02, 2017, 10:18:03 pm
The bright side is that local dealer isn't going to screw up your bike.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: mattchewn on February 06, 2017, 01:12:56 pm
The bright side is that local dealer isn't going to screw up your bike.
Yup,
He has to trailer it 1 1/2 hours away to get it screwed up now. What a relief!    >:(

Maybe this dealer will actually call Kawasaki about warranty replacement?
Let's hope so.
Matt
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 07, 2017, 03:23:11 pm
I just don't think they even wanted to try and deal with it.  I brought it to another local shop that has good reviews.  Dropped it off last night and talked to the owner of the shop.  I got a warmer fuzzy from him that they could fix it.  We shall see.  Hoping this bike doesn't become a hanger queen. :??:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 16, 2017, 06:03:04 pm
Finally, got my bike back.  I ended up having the mechanic delete the rear brake line going to the ABS pump; now the line just goes from the master cylinder to the caliper.  No, rear abs for now, but I have brakes again.  $150 fix.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: hlh1 on February 16, 2017, 07:35:35 pm
Finally, got my bike back.  I ended up having the mechanic delete the rear brake line going to the ABS pump; now the line just goes from the master cylinder to the caliper.  No, rear abs for now, but I have brakes again.  $150 fix.

Easy fix.  Do you know if ABS is working for the fronts? 
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 16, 2017, 11:06:20 pm
So Kaw didn't get involved with it right? 

You could fit a used one as per previous posts.

No-one's lived to report same failure to the front brake.

As I said on page 1 of this thread, the failure of the warning system is the greater concern.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 16, 2017, 11:12:51 pm
Finally, got my bike back.  I ended up having the mechanic delete the rear brake line going to the ABS pump; now the line just goes from the master cylinder to the caliper.  No, rear abs for now, but I have brakes again.  $150 kluge

fixed that for you, and did it for free... :great:

nothing was "fixed".

now, make sure you save your service receipt.. because if you have a catastrophic crash, as a result of a failure, you might be able to sue Bubba for his 1986 Blazer, and his collection of Skynyrd albums...

most of my post is just made in a joking manner, so PLEASE don't flame me for my sick humor attempts.. but some makes sense...

kluge
noun, Computer Slang.
1. a software or hardware configuration that, while inelegant, inefficient, clumsy, or patched together, succeeds in solving a specific problem or performing a particular task.

kludge
noun

A term of endearment for a favorite computer, esp a somewhat defective one
A computer program that has been revised and tinkered with so much that it will never work
A ludicrous assortment of incompatible and unworkable components : You see this mechanical kluge (contraption), stop, think, and decide to do something

kludge in Technology Expand
jargon
/klooj/, /kluhj/ (From German "klug" /kloog/ - clever and Scottish " kludge ") 1. A Rube Goldberg (or Heath Robinson) device, whether in hardware or software.
The spelling "kluge" (as opposed to "kludge") was used in connection with computers as far back as the mid-1950s and, at that time, was used exclusively of *hardware* kluges.
2. A clever programming trick intended to solve a particular nasty case in an expedient, if not clear, manner. Often used to repair bugs. Often involves ad-hockery and verges on being a crock. In fact, the TMRC Dictionary defined "kludge" as "a crock that works".
3. Something that works for the wrong reason.
4. ( WPI ) A feature that is implemented in a rude manner.
In 1947, the "New York Folklore Quarterly" reported a classic shaggy-dog story "Murgatroyd the Kluge Maker" then current in the Armed Forces, in which a "kluge" was a complex and puzzling artifact with a trivial function. Other sources report that "kluge" was common Navy slang in the WWII era for any piece of electronics that worked well on shore but consistently failed at sea.
However, there is reason to believe this slang use may be a decade older. Several respondents have connected it to the brand name of a device called a "Kluge paper feeder" dating back at least to 1935, an adjunct to mechanical printing presses. The Kluge feeder was designed before small, cheap electric motors and control electronics; it relied on a fiendishly complex assortment of cams, belts, and linkages to both power and synchronise all its operations from one motive driveshaft. It was accordingly tempermental, subject to frequent breakdowns, and devilishly difficult to repair - but oh, so clever! One traditional folk etymology of "klugen" makes it the name of a design engineer; in fact, "Kluge" is a surname in German, and the designer of the Kluge feeder may well have been the man behind this myth.
TMRC and the MIT hacker culture of the early 1960s seems to have developed in a milieu that remembered and still used some WWII military slang (see also foobar ). It seems likely that "kluge" came to MIT via alumni of the many military electronics projects run in Cambridge during the war (many in MIT's venerable Building 20, which housed TMRC until the building was demolished in 1999).
[Jargon File ]
(2002-10-02)


and for the person asking if the ABS works on the "front brakes"...
better do some ABS research... read section 12 in the FSM....

I'd expect some service code errors 13 thru 18, and even up to 35... better check to see if they pulled the fuse for the solenoid circuit.. I'd bet they did...
now you have no idea what is going on with the system...


 :??: ;)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 16, 2017, 11:48:29 pm
What MOB said.   :beerchug:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 17, 2017, 01:05:19 am
Next time just call me an idiot and save the sugar coating. The ABS light goes out like normal. I have intentions on getting it fixed properly.  I am going to get the pump off eBay. I am not the first to use this work around. As it has been mentioned on here a few times.  Thanks for the concerns.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 17, 2017, 01:11:24 am
The ABS light goes out like normal. 

That's the problem.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 17, 2017, 10:54:30 am
I got a used pump from an 09' off eBay last night. Are they coded to the bike they came on or can they be swapped around?...plug and play so to speak.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 17, 2017, 11:36:33 am
Well done!  Just a straight swap, nothing other than bleeding the system.  Ensure you mark/photograph which pipes go where.


EDIT: further to reply #34, the 2012 & later ABS unit will NOT work on a series 1 zg1400 (non-linked) bike.  Apart from the different sensor rings on the 2012 & later bikes, they have Traction Control so there is another issue which rules out a swap.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 17, 2017, 01:46:41 pm
Wilco, thanks for the info. 

Hey MOB,
Since I am nice guy I won't flame you, although I am biting my tongue right now.  Do you want the old pump to take apart?
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 17, 2017, 07:17:44 pm
Wilco, thanks for the info. 

Hey MOB,
Do you want the old one to take apart?

 :beerchug:
Again, I was just being a joker with my attempt at humor, sounds like you jumped in and all will be good.
Yes, I would like to have a defective unit to do diagnostics on, shoot me a p/m with your contact info and email, and we can discuss of line.
Thanks,
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 17, 2017, 10:45:26 pm
What a truly caring family we are.   :)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: TimR on February 18, 2017, 08:34:23 am
I have a theory why the rear ABS is failing. It is just a theory and nothing more. I believe the problem is the brake fluid is not getting changed often enough.

I've noticed when changing the rear brake fluid on my 09 the fluid appears to be somewhat contaminated looking with tiny black flecks suspended in the fluid and slightly off color. The first time I changed it I was probably over due and it was defiantly the worse looking. The front brake and clutch has not have this contamination.

So my question is are the brake lines deteriorating and thus the replacement cycle listed in the FSM? Or could it be the rear brake hoses take on more stress because the rear ABS is more likely to be activated than the front?   

My thought or at least until my rear brake goes away is annual brake fluid changes. Tim
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 18, 2017, 10:00:37 am
Kaw agrees with your theory - rather, they say it's a fact.

It's an interesting observation you make on the discoloration of the fluid.  I wonder who else has noticed this? 

Yes, hose deterioration is certainly a concern but what puzzles me is that the brake failure has only been reported on the rear brake.  I've said a few times, somewhat seriously, that it's not been reported on the front as no-one has lived to do so.  GoldWing and HD have recalls for hose deterioration causing similar problems, so it makes one wonder about the K hoses being the cause. 

Furthermore, I've read no reports of it happening to the later linked brake system and the 2010 model is as old (or a little older) now as the 2008/09 model was when it started to show up.  Nissin make the ABS units and the hoses probably all come from the same factory. 

I believe that rear ABS activation requires much less pressure that normal front braking due to the weight transfer.

So it's all still a bit of a mystery.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 18, 2017, 05:19:44 pm
I have a theory why the rear ABS is failing. It is just a theory and nothing more. I believe the problem is the brake fluid is not getting changed often enough.

I've noticed when changing the rear brake fluid on my 09 the fluid appears to be somewhat contaminated looking with tiny black flecks suspended in the fluid and slightly off color. The first time I changed it I was probably over due and it was defiantly the worse looking. The front brake and clutch has not have this contamination.

So my question is are the brake lines deteriorating and thus the replacement cycle listed in the FSM? Or could it be the rear brake hoses take on more stress because the rear ABS is more likely to be activated than the front?   

My thought or at least until my rear brake goes away is annual brake fluid changes. Tim

I tend to agree with your theory as well.  When the mechanic took apart the brake system the other day he said there was a bunch of junk in the rear master cylinder, which I know the fluid was flushed and replaced within the last year.  They replaced my rear line with a steel braided line.  When I go back in to have the ABS pump replaced I will have them replace the lines as well and flush the whole system again.  I think Kaw should do something about this issue.  It seems to be popping up more and more and not just on the C14.  My mechanic said that when he researched failed abs pumps he found quite a few ZX14's of the same model year having the same problem.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: TimR on February 18, 2017, 09:24:36 pm
I wonder if there have no reports on the front ABS is because it activates less frequently. I have only felt my front wheel ABS activate once or twice that wasn't on purpose. The rear on the other hand does so when not on completely dry pavement. It not the rear activates all the time but it is more often than the front for sure.

In the past I've purposely gone to gravel parking lots to activate both the front and rear ABS a couple of times a year thinking this would keep the pumps from getting stuck.  I'm beginning to think this might not be a great idea. But the jury is still out.

I would really like MOB's and SISF's input if they would.  Thanks Tim
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on February 18, 2017, 10:25:42 pm
XZ14 in those years didn't have ABS except for the European model (ZZR1400) so I'd be keen to learn where he's getting his info.  From my interest in the issue, it's seems a rare fault there too.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on February 19, 2017, 06:09:03 pm
Freddy, I may have misheard him, I have been known to only half listen to people...my male genetics :)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on March 10, 2017, 10:20:13 pm
Got my bike back from the shop this afternoon w/the new to me ABS pump I got off eBay for $150.  As of now everything seems to be working normal.  Finally, my brakes are working as they are supposed to :great: :beerchug:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on March 17, 2017, 02:35:35 pm
I sent my old defective ABS pump to MOB for dissection.  We shall see what he comes up with >:D
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on March 21, 2017, 11:39:14 pm
Smitty, you said a coupla pages back that you reported the brake failure to NHTSA (as per page 232 of the Owner's Manual).  Please report back when you get a reply from them.

Thanks.

(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab313/Freddy1333/NHTSA_zpsk6qtfocf.jpg) (http://s875.photobucket.com/user/Freddy1333/media/NHTSA_zpsk6qtfocf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on March 22, 2017, 03:50:42 pm
Smitty, you said a coupla pages back that you reported the brake failure to NHTSA (as per page 232 of the Owner's Manual).  Please report back when you get a reply from them.

Thanks.

([url]http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab313/Freddy1333/NHTSA_zpsk6qtfocf.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s875.photobucket.com/user/Freddy1333/media/NHTSA_zpsk6qtfocf.jpg.html[/url])


Freddy,
I just looked an I reported the issue almost a year ago.  I have not received any response.  If they are like the rest of our government organizations, I will be dead before they respond :??:
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on March 22, 2017, 10:01:13 pm
Blame Donny's friend Vlad.   :D
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Old Sparky on December 05, 2017, 02:41:40 am
My 08 been down for a while and have been watching the banter.  Rear brake locked.  Any new news.
Learned to listen to the skilled ones for a time.  Don't have 1300$ just laying around.
Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Gscott on December 05, 2017, 01:52:09 pm
My 08 been down for a while and have been watching the banter.  Rear brake locked.  Any new news.
Learned to listen to the skilled ones for a time.  Don't have 1300$ just laying around.
Thanks for any info.

Try opening the bleeder valve see if that will let you spin the rear wheel or I kept on stomping on the brake pedal and it finally released.
Then ride using front brake only, that's how I got mine to the dealer.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Smitty on December 05, 2017, 03:32:26 pm
I had to find a new ABS unit on ebay.  Found one for $150 bucks and had it installed by a local non-dealer shop (Kawasaki shop in my area wouldn't touch it, said it was outside their skillset).  Cost me $150 to install.  You can also delete the ABS function to the rear and make it a regular brake.  I had the shop do that for me until I got the new ABS unit.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on December 05, 2017, 10:29:44 pm
No doubt you've read this thread from the start, OS.  Here's some more reading for you.  There are others about it in the links too.

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/abs-failure-due-to-fluid/150/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/abs-failure-due-to-fluid/150/)

Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Old Sparky on January 28, 2018, 07:02:32 pm
After reading for a while I opened up everything cleaned replaced all of the fluids.  no luck.  Even rebuilt the rear master.  Cannot get any fluid past the ABS unit.  Been looking for a loose ABS unit on eBay or anywhere any leads?  If I am reading right a new set of stainless lines should be part of the plan?  MOB how hard is it to get the ABS apart??  Thank everyone for the interesting reading. Will keep an eye on the banter.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 28, 2018, 10:55:44 pm
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0)
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: 1warlock on January 30, 2018, 04:28:42 pm
my rear brakes malfunctioned with the pedal stuck thus leaving me with no rear brakes :'(, plugged the lines from the master cyclinder to the abs pump and ran a hose from the m/c to the calipher, brakes are better than ever :), don't feel any need to replace pump. Had no problem with front brakes, other than shaking, replaced disc and solved that problem. Had the $1250.00 estimate for the pump+ labor and decided to look for alternative. Thought about the Ebay alternative with a used pump, but decided it could have the same problem.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: Freddy on January 30, 2018, 11:16:15 pm
my rear brakes malfunctioned with the pedal stuck thus leaving me with no rear brakes :'(, plugged the lines from the master cyclinder to the abs pump and ran a hose from the m/c to the calipher, brakes are better than ever :), don't feel any need to replace pump. Had no problem with front brakes, other than shaking, replaced disc and solved that problem. Had the $1250.00 estimate for the pump+ labor and decided to look for alternative. Thought about the Ebay alternative with a used pump, but decided it could have the same problem.


Some folks have done that on the over-active series 2 linked system to de-link the rear from the front, which removes ABS function to the rear as you have.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: smokin on January 30, 2018, 11:57:43 pm
I wonder if changing the brake fluid as per service schedule would solve the problem of sticking valves in the ABS system.?Ideas anyone?
Due to the cost of the ABS/PUMP unit I am flushing/changing brake fluid every 12 months to avoid what I suspect is a  moisture caused problem in the ABS system.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: flashback50 on January 31, 2018, 10:23:47 pm
I wonder if changing the brake fluid as per service schedule would solve the problem of sticking valves in the ABS system.?Ideas anyone?
Due to the cost of the ABS/PUMP unit I am flushing/changing brake fluid every 12 months to avoid what I suspect is a  moisture caused problem in the ABS system.

I would think that if you change the brake fluid every 12 months you will never have the problem some are experiencing.
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: JDSCO on January 31, 2018, 11:44:39 pm
I would think that if you change the brake fluid every 12 months you will never have the problem some are experiencing.
+1 and it's inexpensive and easy to do
Title: Re: Rear brake
Post by: smokin on February 02, 2018, 01:16:12 pm
I use :
Motul DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid

Suitable For: DOT3, DOT4, & DOT5.1





Description
Brake fluid will gradually absorb moisture over time, and without you noticing -- up until the point when you first experience brake fade. Flushing your brake fluid is one of the most important preventative maintenance jobs you can do to your motor bike. Being non-silicone and 100% synthetic, Motul's DOT 5.1 is considered to be one of the highest quality brake fluids available on the market today. With a high dry boiling point of 272°c (wet boiling point 185°c), Motul DOT 5.1 is manufactured with a lower viscosity to work more effectively with modern ABS systems. Recommended for drivers who use their motor bike daily, but still need that peace-of-mind for spirited road driving and light track work. The perfect upgrade for vehicles with DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluid recommendations.