Author Topic: Secondaries... consider this  (Read 8405 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2015, 12:26:36 pm »
 Fred, as we discussed the other day, looks like I'm going to contact woolich today and start the learning curve. the tuning part is fine, I've only done a msmall amout of it on a computer so that's going to be the biggest hurdle.

 And you're right, you were the first to crack into the 14's tuning, I would only hope to build from there. Steve
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Online Camper Dave

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2015, 12:59:13 pm »
Fred, as we discussed the other day


Who know what will happen when these two start sharing ideas.....

<--- is there any mechanism in place to deal with a non- productive, antagonistic, former non- member such as this?

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2015, 02:23:45 pm »
Ok, getting back to the discussion; I'm trying to learn and understand.. (and maybe add a thought)

Steve, if I understand correctly?
 Your saying;
    * When the intake valve closes, the rapidly moving air suddenly stops, is momentarily held by the secondary
       flies,    (resulting in a bit of pressure for the next intake valve opening)?
    * Keeping the flies might be better because removing the flies would not hold that bit of pressure?

I follow your reasoning, and it does make sense.
But I have a concern (as the secondary flies don't move each time the valve closes),,,

I'll throw out another thought.[/u]
   I suspect the primary reason for a 2nd set of flies is the extra venturi effect (because of that 2nd fly).
   This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected..
       Better atomized fuel, ignites better... (Particularly at low rpm's for better low end)

Ride safe, Ted
14 Connie (Traveler II) / 03 Connie (Buddy)
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Offline Rembrant

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2015, 02:40:25 pm »
Fred, as we discussed the other day, looks like I'm going to contact woolich today and start the learning curve. the tuning part is fine, I've only done a msmall amout of it on a computer so that's going to be the biggest hurdle.

I worked with Justin Woolich to get the C14 FI ECU BIN file set-up originally (with the North American model at least).
The software is great, and Justin is very helpful with his product.

I see there's all kinds of C14 (and GTR14) files in the software now, so it's coming along nicely, and the support will only get stronger.

If you're the mad scientist type, you'll find the adjustability within the FI ECU very interesting. The Woolich bench harness kit is a great start. If you get into the on-board tuning, the Log Box Pro is very cool stuff, and you can do some pretty unique tuning.

As you mentioned, you're fine with tuning...that's the important part. Having the ability to make the changes is one thing....knowing what those changes do is entirely another.

Good luck. I'll be watching from the sidelines.

Rem ;D
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Offline Fred_Harmon_TX

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2015, 02:43:25 pm »
Ok, getting back to the discussion; I'm trying to learn and understand.. (and maybe add a thought)

Steve, if I understand correctly?
 Your saying;
    * When the intake valve closes, the rapidly moving air suddenly stops, is momentarily held by the secondary
       flies,    (resulting in a bit of pressure for the next intake valve opening)?
    * Keeping the flies might be better because removing the flies would not hold that bit of pressure?

I follow your reasoning, and it does make sense.
But I have a concern (as the secondary flies don't move each time the valve closes),,,

I'll throw out another thought.[/u]
   I suspect the primary reason for a 2nd set of flies is the extra venturi effect (because of that 2nd fly).
   This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected..
       Better atomized fuel, ignites better... (Particularly at low rpm's for better low end)

Ride safe, Ted

According to what Kawasaki Engineering folks told me at the Palm Springs press launch of the 2010, the only reason the secondary butterflies were added to the Concours was to reduce noise emissions.

When Don Guhl did turning on the ZX-12 he found that if he opened the butterflies too far at too low of an RPM, that the bike actually lost horsepower. I assume this was because it decreased the velocity in the intake some. However that was with a different size throttle body. He programmed in what he thought would be the optimized settings for the secondaries which was similar to the profile used on the ZX-12. I convinced him to open them up more and try it on the dyno, and when he did, he said he didn't loose power like he did on the ZX-12. He played around with the butterfly maps some more and did several dyno runs before landing on the current profile that he is using in his reflash.  I also totally removed the butterflies in my 2010 to compare it to the reflash and it felt like it might have lost a small amount power in the mid RPM band with the butterflies removed versus running his butterfly map profile, but I didn't use a dyno.  I did do some testing with the GTech G meter and was able to measure differences between stock and with the Guhl map, which I've posted on here before.
Fred H.


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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2015, 03:36:44 pm »
I miss-spoke. I should have said; This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected "at lower speeds and lower throttle openings"..

I must admit; I've never seen someone do a dyno tune.
From what I have seen on Dyno's,,, The throttle is "quickly" opened to WOT to do a pull.
This is great for max power at WOT, but doesn't teach you anything about normal riding.
   (ie; at partial throttle and minimal throttle movements).

So, my interest in this discussion is more than just max power. (gotta admit; Everyone likes more power at WOT)
I'm also interested in how the flies (removed or reflash) effect normal usage...

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:09:24 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2015, 03:49:35 pm »
As I stated in the outset, vvt has something to do with this. With the intake retarded and overlap low, reversion is reduced so effects from the flies "saving" an overambitious throttle application are lessened. But then there are other tradeoffs I'm thinking of right now also. In fact, I'm developing a plan.  >:D  Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2015, 02:06:36 pm »
How goes "the plan"?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline The Pope

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2015, 02:34:51 pm »
 Here Ted, I'll share ......:popcorncouple:
The Pope
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2015, 02:39:12 pm »
It's in motion. I'm not going to divulge much here, but i'm looking to go places  previously unexplored. I have a learning curve with software to deal with, but on the engine tuning side of stuff I feel comfortable.  this will take a couple months, but it's in progress.  ;)  Steve
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Offline kdub

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Re: Secondaries... consider this
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 11:42:40 am »
Don Guhl reflashed my ECU last fall and it made a night and day difference in low speed drive ability.  A good friend of mine liked my 2012 C14 so much that last month he bought a 2014 c14.  Yesterday riding across town we swapped bikes for a few miles and he was amazed at how much better my bike rode.  He said that he will be sending his ECU off next week. 

His bike felt soggy at lower RPM to me and I was glad to get back on my bike.       I wonder if Don could find more power hiding in my RZR 900?
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