Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Concours 14 / ZG1400 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 24, 2015, 12:37:10 pm

Title: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 24, 2015, 12:37:10 pm
   I have read various threads on fly removal,  and would like to revisit it here

  One thing constantly bantered about is the issue of air speed, comparisons with the zx14, what Kawasaki had in mind, etc etc.

  Nobody has, to my reading, even raised the issue of cam timing, and more to the point, variable valve timing. Maybe because this is even voodoo to engineers not skilled with the effects of cam timing.

   I could make various foolish comparisons like "flow from a garden hose and flow from a fire engine hose" but that's not realistic tuning. Nothing varies that much.

   Instead, lets look at reality... the effects of cam overlap at lower engine rpms, in this case appx 5000 rpm and down.

   The c-14 has shorter duration cams than the zx14, which mandates less overlap given consistent lobe centerlines between the two engines. VVT at low rpm is capable of removing, by my measurement, 20* of cam overlap at low rpm. This has a HUGE effect on intake dynamics. Passive egr / reversion is lessened or non existent. Higher intake air speed encountering an early closing intake valve helps build pressure in the intake track. Trapping that intake charge with computer controlled secondaries could potentially help create a stronger pressure wave upon the next intake stroke.

   The zx14 has no vvt, and longer intake and exhaust cam timing. Much greater overlap, which any tuner knows is detrimental to low rpm power due to passive egr / reversion issues. With larger throttle bodies, it would be easy to see intake velocity could not overcome reversion effects, and volumetric efficiency would drop at lower engine rpms. In this case I think secondaries are the only reasonable response to gaining the most power potential at lower rpms.

   Of course, the c-14 TB's are smaller than the zx's. Given this, and the velocity this alone would help create, the need for secondaries in the c-14 is lessened as compared to the zx14.

  Couple that with the effects of shorter cam timing / vvt / decreased or non existent overlap, I could see a point where the c-14 could actually gain power by a very carefully tuned secondary fly, opening as much as possible to create ultimate volumetric efficiency but no more than that.

   IMO, since there obviously power to be made by removing flies or reflashing the ecm,  I think the obvious correct tuning procedure would be to have the flies controlled by the ECM, but with optimized opening to create the best cylinder filling at lower rpms. With this in mind, I feel this negates the argument that reflashes are only so someone can have "something to sell". Unless those proposing fly removal can support it's superiority over a proper secondary tune from the ECM, they are only guessing.

  Think about it.

 steve
 
  (editted to reflect the more civil nature of COG based discussions) - Steve

   
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on April 24, 2015, 01:43:17 pm
First off, let me say this. I really don't care whether anyone gets reflash, removes their butterflies and adds a PC, or keeps their bike stock. It makes no difference to me, and I don't get any of the money Don Guhl makes, and I have no financial investment in it.  When I originally contacted him, he didn't even want to do it because he figured it would be a money loosing proposition.  After repeatedly hounding him, he finally relented and I sent him my ECM to do testing with and others on this forum took bikes to him to put on his dyno and helped with development.  My only "investment" in this project was time, and the fact that I would like to see Don Guhl rewarded for putting forth the time and effort to make this happen.  He pioneered the C14 reflash and without his efforts, I don't think anyone else would have ever bothered with it.  My original goal was to be able to open the butterflies sooner so the bike could breath at low RPM, but once he got into the ECM, we realized there were a lot of other tunable variables in there that could be tweaked.  Don put several bikes on dynos with wideband 02 sensors up the exhaust and spent many hours on the dyno developing good maps for the fuel and butterflies.

By the way, Don also tunes the ZX-14s for Brocks performance, so he knows what he is doing.

There are multiple arguments for getting a reflash versus pulling the butterflies. Here are just a few.

1. No risk of damaging throttle bodies when attempting to remove screws that hold the secondaries in.
2. Zero impact on traction control
3. Total control is still retained over butterflies, and the map has been optimized for performance
4. Fuel mixture is also adjusted, removing the need for a Power Commander
5. Ease of installation (unplug ECU, mail, reinstall)
6. Costs (Look at the price of a Power Commander versus a reflash and time required to install a PC and remove butterflies)
7. No risk of aftermarket electronics (like the Power Commander) failing and leaving you stranded.  I've personally had two of them break on me, leaving the bike in a non-running state, and seen multiple threads on them failing on folks. The contacts where the wires connect to the circuit seem to be what break, but I've also seen the connectors fail and wires break.

There are now other options out there available and I believe one company now makes a programmer you can use at home to reflash your own ECM. This would be a useful tool for someone willing to spend time on a dyno that wanted to make and flash their own maps. Don has also been working on a cable and software to do this, but so far it hasn't been made available yet. There have also been some rather shady operations that popped up after they tried to copy Don's work, and offered their own reflash programs. One of them was reflashing the European map into the US bikes and didn't even have a dyno to build proper maps with, and were just "guessing". They also fried a couple folks ECM's and didn't offer to pay for them. I think they have since closed up shop, but there are some new ones that have popped up. I'd be leary of who you trust having reflash your ECM, because some of them have never even seen a Concours, much less put one on a dyno and made a proper map for it.

Ultimately any decision to modify your bike is up to you. My advice would be to do your homework beforehand and then decide what is best for you. Some folks may like having a Power Commander and the ability to load their own maps. Others may want to be able to reflash their own ECM at home. And some folks may prefer to rely on a proven reflash and not hassle with all the work involved in other methods. And others may feel the bike has plenty of power as it is, and want to leave it alone.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: 4Bikes on April 24, 2015, 06:46:12 pm
This is awesome information, thanks Steve and Fred!  Given that the reflash allows better breathing and more power at lower RPM’s, does that improvement also mean increased fuel efficiency?
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on April 24, 2015, 07:05:55 pm
This is awesome information, thanks Steve and Fred!  Given that the reflash allows better breathing and more power at lower RPM’s, does that improvement also mean increased fuel efficiency?

Yes it helps a small amount, but I wouldn't do it just for this reason alone. The gains are minimal, maybe 2mpg.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: 4Bikes on April 24, 2015, 07:50:54 pm
Thanks. Don Guhl's shop is only a short ride for me. Maybe he can do the reflash while I wait. 
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: PeteTN_zgtr on April 25, 2015, 12:13:19 am
   I have read various threads on fly removal, and I have to say I'm surprised at the myopic take on this from the various engineer types.

  One thing constantly bantered about is the issue of air speed, comparisons with the zx14, what Kawasaki had in mind, etc etc.

  Nobody has, to my reading, even raised the issue of cam timing, and more to the point, variable valve timing. Maybe because this is even voodoo to engineers not skilled with the effects of cam timing.

 

Steve, there is no need to be insulting to engineers. It's easy to insult people that have accomplished something you haven't. You're right, not all of us are experts in everything just like everybody else. And some might bloviate unnecessarily like everybody else. There are thousands of manhrs. of work from engineers that go into making any modern machine work so well and so reliably and they are working with processes, analysis techniques, and concepts you never heard of to design and manufacture these bikes. So quit insulting us until you design and build you're own bike from the ground up. It's much easier to learn how something works after somebody else created it. Let me know when you've put in the hard work and had the discipline to earn any engineering degree.

Dr. Pete

Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Zarticus on April 25, 2015, 12:31:47 am
   I have read various threads on fly removal, and I have to say I'm surprised at the myopic take on this from the various engineer types.

  One thing constantly bantered about is the issue of air speed, comparisons with the zx14, what Kawasaki had in mind, etc etc.

  Nobody has, to my reading, even raised the issue of cam timing, and more to the point, variable valve timing. Maybe because this is even voodoo to engineers not skilled with the effects of cam timing.

 

Steve, there is no need to be insulting to engineers. It's easy to insult people that have accomplished something you haven't. You're right, not all of us are experts in everything just like everybody else. And some might bloviate unnecessarily like everybody else. There are thousands of manhrs. of work from engineers that go into making any modern machine work so well and so reliably and they are working with processes, analysis techniques, and concepts you never heard of to design and manufacture these bikes. So quit insulting us until you design and build you're own bike from the ground up. It's much easier to learn how something works after somebody else created it. Let me know when you've put in the hard work and had the discipline to earn any engineering degree.

Dr. Pete
Steve HAS put in much hard work & while those degrees look nice hanging on a wall it's the guys with dirt under their nails that usually make those "engineered" things work better  :o
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 25, 2015, 12:42:56 am

Steve, there is no need to be insulting to engineers. It's easy to insult people that have accomplished something you haven't. You're right, not all of us are experts in everything just like everybody else. And some might bloviate unnecessarily like everybody else. There are thousands of manhrs. of work from engineers that go into making any modern machine work so well and so reliably and they are working with processes, analysis techniques, and concepts you never heard of to design and manufacture these bikes. So quit insulting us until you design and build you're own bike from the ground up. It's much easier to learn how something works after somebody else created it. Let me know when you've put in the hard work and had the discipline to earn any engineering degree.

Dr. Pete

  I understand, and offer my apology with an explanation. This post was a word for word cut and paste I posted on another forum first. The engineer type there is who that was addressed to, and it was building on some other foolishness being bantered about as scientific gospel.

  Dr Pete, I don't have an engineering degree, I've not accomplished much in my life as I was born a poor black child.  but I have a pretty good BS meter from dealing with folks in all walks of life, and sometimes I, well, just call it how I see it in my uneducated, non politically correct hick manner.  No offense to you or  uneducated, non politically correct hicks intended  ;)

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAvQp-Uk5I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAvQp-Uk5I)

Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on April 25, 2015, 12:44:36 am
I didn't think anything stated was insulting at all and I certainly didn't take it that way. Engineers can learn a LOT from mechanics and vice versa. 

Sometimes I think engineers can have inflated egos (and I can say this because I am one), and tend to try to use what small amount of knowledge we have as a way to put ourselves above others. I've worked with other engineers on a daily basis for over 30 years, and I can tell you, I've seen some of the most heated debates between engineers on technical subjects that in the end turned out to be trivial, but the debate was less about the actual technical content being discussed and was more about each one trying to prove the other wrong.

When I got my degree, I thought I was the smartest man on the planet. Every year older I get, I feel dumber than the year before. Funny how that works.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 25, 2015, 12:50:09 am
Oh, and I did sleep behind the dumpster at Holiday Inn for awhile, does that make me smarter? :-[  Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Gypsy JR on April 25, 2015, 09:40:34 am
Oh, and I did sleep behind the dumpster at Holiday Inn for awhile, does that make me smarter? :-[  Steve

No but it might make you more stinky.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Camper Dave on April 25, 2015, 10:17:00 am
Ah yes... Engineers...

Years ago, I worked at Texas Instruments. It was always very amusing when a new batch of Process Engineers came around. They would always insist there was a better, more efficient way to operate our monster sized rolling mills. The math always backed up what they claimed. But Manny, the little 60 yr old Portuguese guy (who still couldn't (or wouldn't) speak English after working there for 35 years) would say "It's not going to work".   Manny, his shift supervisor/translator and the Engineers would work together for weeks, ruining roll after roll of metal. When the Engineers went back to their home office, the plant manager would come over and tell Manny to go back to doing what works.

Manny retired when he turned 62, bought what could only be described as a mansion and most of a mountain in Portugal. The Engineers came back to train a brand new batch of machine operators (we were pretty much convinced that they felt Manny was not doing what they told him to do). They produced roll after roll of scrap. The company brought Manny back for 3 months to re-train the old crew he worked with for years, it was suppose to be 6 months but Manny got things back to normal in weeks.

Truth be told... A few years before working at TI, I was going to college.... for Engineering  ??? 
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 25, 2015, 12:12:03 pm
Dr Pete laid a good smackdown on me, but he didn't respond to the actual reason for the post. I hope he offers his thoughts on my premise, and that we can get back to the tuning aspects of the c-14 for the remainder of this thread  :great: Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: 4Bikes on April 25, 2015, 06:17:44 pm
.....and that we can get back to the tuning aspects of the c-14 for the remainder of this thread  :great: Steve

Engineers vs the world and technicians and mechanics would be a great lively new thread.  Please resume the regularly scheduled tuning discussion.  :great:
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: mattchewn on April 25, 2015, 11:43:04 pm
Steve,
Engineers have come up with some truly great stuff over the years. What they haven't come up with is a way to always satisfy the bean counters in the back office putting the kibosh on parts or all of their designs. So what could have been, is so often, NOT. So is that the engineers' fault?  Or the accountants?     :) 

Matt
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 25, 2015, 11:56:11 pm
Steve,
Engineers have come up with some truly great stuff over the years. What they haven't come up with is a way to always satisfy the bean counters in the back office putting the kibosh on parts or all of their designs. So what could have been, is so often, NOT. So is that the engineers' fault?  Or the accountants?     :) 

Matt

 Matt, read reply #7. Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Bruiser on April 26, 2015, 04:20:54 am
 :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple: :popcorncouple:
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: PeteTN_zgtr on April 26, 2015, 05:01:58 pm
Steve, apology accepted.  Maybe I was being a bit sensitive but if one reads very many threads there are those kinds of comments made on a not so rare basis. Some engineers do say dumb things. I work with some. On public forums though some tact and avoiding generalizing about people would be helpful. I don't think your un-accomplished. Running a successful business is an accomplishment. I get on here to learn from you guys that spend a lot of time working on these bikes.

Ride safe
Pete

Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 26, 2015, 06:33:37 pm
Thanks for that Pete.

 Now to all, let's get back to tuning the c-14 for optimum torque and power,  and other exercises in futility, 'cus this really is one darn fine bike as delivered from Kaw  :beerchug: Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: 4Bikes on April 26, 2015, 08:31:08 pm
I think the C-14 is the finest machine ever made  :motonoises: Improving it will be a challenge, but let's do it.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Sailor_chic on April 26, 2015, 09:45:28 pm
I think the C-14 is the finest machine ever made  :motonoises: Improving it will be a challenge, but let's do it.

I agree that this is a fine machine right out of the box. It's highly capable of going anywhere that there is a road and with a high degree of reliability. It also is able to do 150+ mph in stock form. This fine machine, while loaded and doing 80 mph in 6th gear, will advance to a 100+ in a heartbeat with a slight twist O' wrist. All of the above while getting low to mid 40 mpg! I'm not sure about the rest of you folks here, but I already have a difficult time keeping my bike close to the posted limit.
So my point being, why mess with the reliability of this fine machine to get a fraction of a hair better performance. IMO, get a second bike that you can get your rocks off on!
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 26, 2015, 09:56:45 pm
So my point being, why mess with the reliability of this fine machine to get a fraction of a hair better performance.

1) who said anything about effecting reliability? Shoodaben is stupidly modified and has never let me down.

2) because I think I can.

 Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Jorge on April 27, 2015, 01:41:42 am
Come on Steve, it's really just #2... right? :rotflmao:
Go boy... maybe by the time I get a C14 you'll have something, and I'll have more courage to do some if those mods :great:
Jorge
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 27, 2015, 10:05:44 am
Come on Steve, it's really just #2... right? :rotflmao:
Jorge

  Ya know Jorge, I'm not smart, I'm actually kinda dumb. I mess with stuff and mod stuff because I'm to dumb to know what I'm doing won't work. I've been told many times in my life by those more intelligent and educated than me  "that's not going to work"  but like a fool I forge ahead.  I'm just to dumb to know I'm doomed to failure. This is probably another one of those times.  :-[  Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on April 27, 2015, 12:11:16 pm
Steve I'd like to hear your ideas, and I would encourage you to experiment with this bike. Had I not done so, we never would have a reflash available. There were several folks on the old forum that told me I'd never be able to reprogram the ECU. I'm sure glad I didn't listen to them.

My major complaint from the beginning was lack of low end torque and poor throttle response on the low end due to the secondaries. There have been a couple folks who have gotten around 160hp out of this bike, at the rear wheel, after doing mods to it. There have also been a couple folks put turbo kits on their bikes and made up around 200hp. If you're willing to experiment, the sky is the limit.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 27, 2015, 12:26:36 pm
 Fred, as we discussed the other day, looks like I'm going to contact woolich today and start the learning curve. the tuning part is fine, I've only done a msmall amout of it on a computer so that's going to be the biggest hurdle.

 And you're right, you were the first to crack into the 14's tuning, I would only hope to build from there. Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Camper Dave on April 27, 2015, 12:59:13 pm
Fred, as we discussed the other day


Who know what will happen when these two start sharing ideas.....

(http://cdn.hark.com/images/000/440/272/440272/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: connie_rider on April 27, 2015, 02:23:45 pm
Ok, getting back to the discussion; I'm trying to learn and understand.. (and maybe add a thought)

Steve, if I understand correctly?
 Your saying;
    * When the intake valve closes, the rapidly moving air suddenly stops, is momentarily held by the secondary
       flies,    (resulting in a bit of pressure for the next intake valve opening)?
    * Keeping the flies might be better because removing the flies would not hold that bit of pressure?

I follow your reasoning, and it does make sense.
But I have a concern (as the secondary flies don't move each time the valve closes),,,

I'll throw out another thought.[/u]
   I suspect the primary reason for a 2nd set of flies is the extra venturi effect (because of that 2nd fly).
   This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected..
       Better atomized fuel, ignites better... (Particularly at low rpm's for better low end)

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Rembrant on April 27, 2015, 02:40:25 pm
Fred, as we discussed the other day, looks like I'm going to contact woolich today and start the learning curve. the tuning part is fine, I've only done a msmall amout of it on a computer so that's going to be the biggest hurdle.

I worked with Justin Woolich to get the C14 FI ECU BIN file set-up originally (with the North American model at least).
The software is great, and Justin is very helpful with his product.

I see there's all kinds of C14 (and GTR14) files in the software now, so it's coming along nicely, and the support will only get stronger.

If you're the mad scientist type, you'll find the adjustability within the FI ECU very interesting. The Woolich bench harness kit is a great start. If you get into the on-board tuning, the Log Box Pro is very cool stuff, and you can do some pretty unique tuning.

As you mentioned, you're fine with tuning...that's the important part. Having the ability to make the changes is one thing....knowing what those changes do is entirely another.

Good luck. I'll be watching from the sidelines.

Rem ;D
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Fred_Harmon_TX on April 27, 2015, 02:43:25 pm
Ok, getting back to the discussion; I'm trying to learn and understand.. (and maybe add a thought)

Steve, if I understand correctly?
 Your saying;
    * When the intake valve closes, the rapidly moving air suddenly stops, is momentarily held by the secondary
       flies,    (resulting in a bit of pressure for the next intake valve opening)?
    * Keeping the flies might be better because removing the flies would not hold that bit of pressure?

I follow your reasoning, and it does make sense.
But I have a concern (as the secondary flies don't move each time the valve closes),,,

I'll throw out another thought.[/u]
   I suspect the primary reason for a 2nd set of flies is the extra venturi effect (because of that 2nd fly).
   This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected..
       Better atomized fuel, ignites better... (Particularly at low rpm's for better low end)

Ride safe, Ted

According to what Kawasaki Engineering folks told me at the Palm Springs press launch of the 2010, the only reason the secondary butterflies were added to the Concours was to reduce noise emissions.

When Don Guhl did turning on the ZX-12 he found that if he opened the butterflies too far at too low of an RPM, that the bike actually lost horsepower. I assume this was because it decreased the velocity in the intake some. However that was with a different size throttle body. He programmed in what he thought would be the optimized settings for the secondaries which was similar to the profile used on the ZX-12. I convinced him to open them up more and try it on the dyno, and when he did, he said he didn't loose power like he did on the ZX-12. He played around with the butterfly maps some more and did several dyno runs before landing on the current profile that he is using in his reflash.  I also totally removed the butterflies in my 2010 to compare it to the reflash and it felt like it might have lost a small amount power in the mid RPM band with the butterflies removed versus running his butterfly map profile, but I didn't use a dyno.  I did do some testing with the GTech G meter and was able to measure differences between stock and with the Guhl map, which I've posted on here before.
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: connie_rider on April 27, 2015, 03:36:44 pm
I miss-spoke. I should have said; This venturi would better atomize the fuel after it is injected "at lower speeds and lower throttle openings"..

I must admit; I've never seen someone do a dyno tune.
From what I have seen on Dyno's,,, The throttle is "quickly" opened to WOT to do a pull.
This is great for max power at WOT, but doesn't teach you anything about normal riding.
   (ie; at partial throttle and minimal throttle movements).

So, my interest in this discussion is more than just max power. (gotta admit; Everyone likes more power at WOT)
I'm also interested in how the flies (removed or reflash) effect normal usage...

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on April 27, 2015, 03:49:35 pm
As I stated in the outset, vvt has something to do with this. With the intake retarded and overlap low, reversion is reduced so effects from the flies "saving" an overambitious throttle application are lessened. But then there are other tradeoffs I'm thinking of right now also. In fact, I'm developing a plan.  >:D  Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: connie_rider on May 13, 2015, 02:06:36 pm
How goes "the plan"?

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: The Pope on May 13, 2015, 02:34:51 pm
 Here Ted, I'll share ......:popcorncouple:
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on May 13, 2015, 02:39:12 pm
It's in motion. I'm not going to divulge much here, but i'm looking to go places  previously unexplored. I have a learning curve with software to deal with, but on the engine tuning side of stuff I feel comfortable.  this will take a couple months, but it's in progress.  ;)  Steve
Title: Re: Secondaries... consider this
Post by: kdub on May 23, 2015, 11:42:40 am
Don Guhl reflashed my ECU last fall and it made a night and day difference in low speed drive ability.  A good friend of mine liked my 2012 C14 so much that last month he bought a 2014 c14.  Yesterday riding across town we swapped bikes for a few miles and he was amazed at how much better my bike rode.  He said that he will be sending his ECU off next week. 

His bike felt soggy at lower RPM to me and I was glad to get back on my bike.       I wonder if Don could find more power hiding in my RZR 900?