Author Topic: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash  (Read 2716 times)

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Offline strum

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Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« on: December 03, 2017, 04:17:47 pm »
   Steve has been working diligently on this flash version for a while and he just unveiled it on his site.
    I had the pleasure of being one of the beta testers for him and I can tell you guys this is the most refined flash so far.
   By refined I mean this was not a flash and forget type of test .  I started with the EVO and to me I thought that was it. I couldn't imagine anything better.
   Then I tested the MR (not sure what version)
   I live up here in the North Ga mountains and we have no shortage of elevation changes and twistys so you get to shift quiet a bit.
  That said I put this thing through some rigorous riding with the goal of giving usable feedback that Steve could rely on and tweak .
    I even gave myself a car sick feeling one time when hammering wolfpen gap in different gears and different speeds. I didnt know that was possible lol.
   Steve told me to stop that and ride it normal  :-[
     I was totally satisfied with it but after speaking to him he reflashed my ecu again with some extra tweaks .
     Again I was satisfied but he wasn't and he was right because it came back better still.
     Ok whats better you ask?
     We have all been aware of the drive line snatch or whatever you wanna call it on the C14 from day one.
     Each flash it got smoother and for me up here in the mountains the shifting is now snatch free in every gear.
     Entering curves the decell properties allow me to roll off the throttle using much less brake and get back on with confidence having
      a smooth roll on that powers out with authority.
     I notice power down low in any gear is much stronger. This gives the ability to pull corners up hill in higher gears than previously needed.
     If your the type to tractor the hills and curves then this will put a smile on your face.
     As far as riding two up and just looking to ride smooth and clean. You have to work for it now . Its there.
    No helmet clanking.
     Fuel economy is much improved from stock too.
     I could go on and on but Ill let some of the other guys chime in.
     I do want to say thank you Steve for allowing me to test and continuing to make the C14 better than it ever was.
             
   
     
   
   
   
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 04:21:15 pm by strum »
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 05:53:05 pm »
I get to try out the most recent MR also this week. Will chime in with impressions, I liked the original MR BTW but Steve said he improved the up shifting sensations.
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Offline Skiee

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 07:47:06 pm »
Well, I guess it's time to upgrade from the decel to MR flash!!!

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Offline ZXtasy

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 08:42:06 pm »
It is sunny and 50 here today and my ECU is in transit....sucks!!! OH WELL,
2013 ZG-1400, 2005 ZX-10R (Nekkid), 2012 TW-200, 1999 TW-200....and more to come.

Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 09:40:23 pm »
I haven't had a chance to take it up into any elevations yet, nor do anything more than maybe 30 miles of interstate riding. But after a full week of riding to work, and a few times of just out joyriding and exploring the MR flash, I am very impressed. The performance is outstanding, for sure. And the around town MPG has gone from about 35.5 to almost 40.5, and that was with quite a bit of throttle twisting as I continue to explore the new power. I do look for and enjoy every opportunity to dive into an exit ramp or an on ramp and power my way around a curve, and have done a little backroad riding. I went out for an 80 mile ride today and only wound it up a few times, otherwise I was just cruising. As you can see in the picture in the link below, I went over 80 miles and have not yet lost a bar on the fuel gauge. That was with a fresh tank of Sunnoco 93 octane. That's very nice.

We also have a couple of places around here that offer ethanol free gas and I think I may be having a chance to fill up with that on a group ride planned for next Saturday.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D3oeSHT0yM8fkwjXLV_7LWUpxWnOizEG/view?usp=drivesdk

Offline Nodesurfer

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 09:42:25 pm »
The red light is due to my TPMS batteries being low.

Offline Just Cliff

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2017, 09:55:59 pm »
Looks like I may need to send mine back sometime over this winter for a re-flash. Hard to believe the EVO can be improved, but I'm willing to try!  :motonoises:

Cliff   :beerchug:

Offline strum

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 10:34:27 pm »
Cliff I was scepitcal at first because I was so happy with the evo.  But it is an improvement and worth doing.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 02:24:35 pm »
Steve, I'm starting to toy with the idea of doing the flash, but i'm trying to understand; is this an improvement over the EVO, or is this a totally different function?

Do your flashes avoid the engine "on-off" sensation by removing the valve closure when off the throttle?

would love to hear more about how this works, as to know exactly which Flash is best for me.

thank you! ;)
Best,

JD

--Harley Davidson is king when it comes to turning gas into smoke, without the outcome of power--

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 03:52:49 pm »
Steve, I'm starting to toy with the idea of doing the flash, but i'm trying to understand; is this an improvement over the EVO, or is this a totally different function?
thank you! ;)


   I'm not sure I understand the question.  I posted previously on other threads about tunes having different personalities. The amount of deceleration / engine braking being different, as an example. This is the first flash that I didn't build based on what I like (in Florida, IE Flatistan) but that I built based on beta tester feedback. Beta testers in different parts of the country with different riding styles. To me, for my style EVO didn't need an improvement, but I'm not riding the same terrain and style as others. Mountain Runner is my response to customer requests and input. I hope this answers your question.

  As far as how it feels on / off throttle, ask the guys who are riding on it... like these 2 guys.

 http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/just-received-my-freshly-flashed-2009-c-14-ecu/

  http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/shoodaben-engineering-(steves-top-secret-flash)/

  Steve
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:29:54 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline ron203

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 03:55:22 pm »
Steve, I'm starting to toy with the idea of doing the flash, but i'm trying to understand; is this an improvement over the EVO, or is this a totally different function?

Do your flashes avoid the engine "on-off" sensation by removing the valve closure when off the throttle?

would love to hear more about how this works, as to know exactly which Flash is best for me.

thank you! ;)

Great questions. If you look on SISF's website, you'll find most if not all of the answers. HTH.
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 08:14:31 pm »
EDIT:   I do not have the latest version of this flash.  This is what I wanted it to do for ME....

As a beta tester I was looking for the bike to not lurch as hard when going from throttle off to throttle barely on as I try to settle the bike after braking and before starting the hard part of the lean.  I found the bike lurching and upsetting the smooth entry into the corner.

PS:  The OEM flash and the EVO flash I felt was to abrupt on and off.  The new lash helps this some.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 08:59:30 pm by smithr1 »
---
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 09:04:04 pm »
As a beta tester I was looking for the bike to not lurch as hard when going from throttle off to throttle barely on as I try to settle the bike after braking and before starting the hard part of the lean.  I found the bike lurching and upsetting the smooth entry into the corner.

PS:  The OEM flash and the EVO flash I felt was to abrupt on and off.  The new lash helps this some.

  I guess building something with beta testers is like making sausage... the sausage is good, but making it, not so much. Yes, Bob did start off in the beta program, but due to getting married, etc he really wasn't able to take advantage of the updates or give feedback. I actually made 32 more versions after the one Bob had. I have been working on this Flash, since July, and actually loaded the first one, the same as Bob had, on Aug 10. Steve
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Offline Throttle 8

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 12:54:08 am »
So what are the differences between the original Decel flash and this one?
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 01:29:19 am »
So what are the differences between the original Decel flash and this one?

Mountain Runner started with the Evolution flash and built from there. Evolution was entirely different than the previous flashes in how the secondaries were being used as a tuning tool. Mountain runner takes the theory applied in Evolution to a hyper level. This in turn let me make fuel and timing changes for more economy. It wasn't my original goal, but hey, I'll take it   ;)

ETA  -This flash really is diametrically opposed to the theory that the secondaries are just in the way and should be eliminated from the airstream as soon as possible. A couple years ago that was the dogma. it was wrong then, and this flash really proves it. Steve
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:34:51 am by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 01:38:56 am »
Steve, I'm starting to toy with the idea of doing the flash, but i'm trying to understand; is this an improvement over the EVO, or is this a totally different function?
thank you! ;)


   I'm not sure I understand the question.  I posted previously on other threads about tunes having different personalities. The amount of deceleration / engine braking being different, as an example. This is the first flash that I didn't build based on what I like (in Florida, IE Flatistan) but that I built based on beta tester feedback. Beta testers in different parts of the country with different riding styles. To me, for my style EVO didn't need an improvement, but I'm not riding the same terrain and style as others. Mountain Runner is my response to customer requests and input. I hope this answers your question.

  As far as how it feels on / off throttle, ask the guys who are riding on it... like these 2 guys.

 http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/just-received-my-freshly-flashed-2009-c-14-ecu/

  http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/shoodaben-engineering-(steves-top-secret-flash)/

  Steve

Steve, thanks for your response; Let me clarify. I hate the way the stock ECU makes the bike lurch when going on the throttle, due to the "closed loop" or whatever is called, when the engine is basically shut off (injectors closed i believe? not an expert, please correct me) when off the throttle to improve emissions. Sometimes if you go at a certain low speed in a low gear it acts as a friggin bronco! not cool.

My question is, (and yes, I did read your site but didn't find the response to my ? there), is this annoying trait of the stock flash removed? or better yet, does your Evo flash (i think i'm into the Evo, from what i have read in the forum) fix this extremely annoying behaviour, by removing this gas saving gremlin? I really hate it as you can see.

Thanks Steve!
Best,

JD

--Harley Davidson is king when it comes to turning gas into smoke, without the outcome of power--

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 02:41:03 am »

Steve, thanks for your response; Let me clarify. I hate the way the stock ECU makes the bike lurch when going on the throttle, due to the "closed loop" or whatever is called, when the engine is basically shut off (injectors closed i believe? not an expert, please correct me) when off the throttle to improve emissions. Sometimes if you go at a certain low speed in a low gear it acts as a friggin bronco! not cool.

My question is, (and yes, I did read your site but didn't find the response to my ? there), is this annoying trait of the stock flash removed? or better yet, does your Evo flash (i think i'm into the Evo, from what i have read in the forum) fix this extremely annoying behaviour, by removing this gas saving gremlin? I really hate it as you can see.

Thanks Steve!
 

Well as I previously posted, I was really happy with the evo flash for the type of riding I do. But I built my flashes with throttle cables that were properly set up, and as I worked through the flashes I wasn't having the issues some folks apparently had. I take pride in my work as I feel it represents me so if there's things folks don't like I don't just say "take it or leave it" I go back to work to satisfy any criticisms. As it turns out, during the course of building Mountain Runner I actually caught the lurchy throttle issue some folks report as being slow TPS (throttle position sensor) response. I posted that on the forum, and some folks tried the throttle cable adjustment and reported great results (see the thread "you need to read this"). Regardless, one individual kept tossing out what you're referring to, that being deceleration fuel cut. What was summarily dismissed in that discussion  is something another member brought up, which is that fuel cut had an important impact on deceleration / engine braking qualities. I personally don't feel that fuel cut in and of itself is a huge tuning issue, In fact I think with some forethought it can be made to work FOR the tuner, if he's willing to put in the work.

  Let's keep in mind that the same individual pushing the fuel cut theory is the same person who started off by pushing how fast and powerful another tuners flash is... until we see that on the dyno mine made actually a bit more power, and my tune drove a stock Concours to 182.013 mph on a timed run. No other tuner can claim that, so they have to try to throw out straw man arguments to try to "win over" customers. I have been working on a tuning the c-14 for 2.5 years now, and always strive to improve. Ride one of my flashes on a properly set up bike before you fall for the sales gimmicks, you may (will) be surprised. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
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Offline Throttle 8

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 03:15:20 am »
Thanks for the info Steve. I have been extremely happy with the Decel flash, and couldn't see myself with the Evolution flash because I absolutely love the engine braking when diving into a curve and am unwilling to give it up. (Side note: I didn't realize how strong the Decel was until I rode in a group ride last month. The guy on a Goldwing behind me asked over the intercom if he could ride in front of me because every time I closed the throttle my bike slowed down so fast  that he had to grab a handful of brake!)
If this Mountain flash is a Decel flash with a steroid infusion I may have to get an update (at a Ralley next year---because I cannot deal with stoopid customs people any more--lol!) :beerchug:
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Offline Devasya

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 03:53:55 am »

Offline gsun

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 04:04:54 am »
Interesting comment on the pull in 6th at 6K RPM.

https://youtu.be/nes3kRwMhVA

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 11:14:06 am »
Interesting comment on the pull in 6th at 6K RPM.

Yes, it is, particularly because at that point the flash is all "Evolution" and it's crazy strong in that area. I'd like to know more about the test conditions, weather wise.

  David - thanks for the video. I reviewed my gearing / speed chart, you were going 140 mph when you shifter from 5th to 6th. How did the bike do pulling through that RPM area in 5th? Also do you know you elevation, and you said it was 37* and damp... do you know the humidity? Have you ever done this on the bike with the stock ECU and same weather conditions?

  David, I found the info for Port Orchard, Wa.

  Barometer - 30.6"
  Dew point - 34*
  Air Temp - 36*
  Humidity - 96%
  Elevation - 72'

  correction factor - 109.5. so your bike should make 9.5% MORE power than my bike here on the dyno in Fl. that being the case, you would have 165 + HP... your bike should be lofting the front wheel easily through 3rd gear. But I bet it's not. Here's why...

    The ECU has a correction factor built in, and it's supplying much more fuel at that temp / barometer. This, in combination with the windchill effect on the cooling system being 18* at 70 mph and 13* at 140 mph is going to mean the cylinder / piston / head temps are really to cold for efficient combustion. The coolant is being pulled down to the 36* level very rapidly. The Thermastat will try to stall coolant circulation, but it's doubtful the engine can generate enough heat to stay at proper running temps even without much coolant circulation. The end result is going to be a large power loss, and pouring raw, unburned hydrocarbons out the tailpipe.

  This is the same effect as starting a cold engine, and why carbs need chokes and EFI needs cold start fuel enrichment, because of the combustion inefficiency of a cold engine.
 
    Now IF the engine could be kept at 200* or so, and that cold intake charge wasn't quenching the combustion process, you'ld be up there in the 165 hp level. Sadly, it doesn't work that way.

   Welcome to internal combustion engines, where there are very few free lunches  :??: Steve

 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:57:31 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
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Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 02:03:13 pm »

Steve, thanks for your response; Let me clarify. I hate the way the stock ECU makes the bike lurch when going on the throttle, due to the "closed loop" or whatever is called, when the engine is basically shut off (injectors closed i believe? not an expert, please correct me) when off the throttle to improve emissions. Sometimes if you go at a certain low speed in a low gear it acts as a friggin bronco! not cool.

My question is, (and yes, I did read your site but didn't find the response to my ? there), is this annoying trait of the stock flash removed? or better yet, does your Evo flash (i think i'm into the Evo, from what i have read in the forum) fix this extremely annoying behaviour, by removing this gas saving gremlin? I really hate it as you can see.

Thanks Steve!
 

Well as I previously posted, I was really happy with the evo flash for the type of riding I do. But I built my flashes with throttle cables that were properly set up, and as I worked through the flashes I wasn't having the issues some folks apparently had. I take pride in my work as I feel it represents me so if there's things folks don't like I don't just say "take it or leave it" I go back to work to satisfy any criticisms. As it turns out, during the course of building Mountain Runner I actually caught the lurchy throttle issue some folks report as being slow TPS (throttle position sensor) response. I posted that on the forum, and some folks tried the throttle cable adjustment and reported great results (see the thread "you need to read this"). Regardless, one individual kept tossing out what you're referring to, that being deceleration fuel cut. What was summarily dismissed in that discussion  is something another member brought up, which is that fuel cut had an important impact on deceleration / engine braking qualities. I personally don't feel that fuel cut in and of itself is a huge tuning issue, In fact I think with some forethought it can be made to work FOR the tuner, if he's willing to put in the work.

  Let's keep in mind that the same individual pushing the fuel cut theory is the same person who started off by pushing how fast and powerful another tuners flash is... until we see that on the dyno mine made actually a bit more power, and my tune drove a stock Concours to 182.013 mph on a timed run. No other tuner can claim that, so they have to try to throw out straw man arguments to try to "win over" customers. I have been working on a tuning the c-14 for 2.5 years now, and always strive to improve. Ride one of my flashes on a properly set up bike before you fall for the sales gimmicks, you may (will) be surprised. Steve

Steve, let me clarify something, in case i may have given you the wrong impression; I'm just a potential customer, trying to figure out if your flash would work for me. I'm sorry if my questions ticked you the wrong way, but there's no hidden intents or agenda behind what I was asking, hence I'm not interested in the comparisons between your Flash and whichever individual you were talking about. I haven't fallen for any sales gimmicks, otherwise I would already have my ECU flashed, and I wouldn't be here asking you this questions as an interested potential customer of your product.

Right now my bike is stock, no flashes of any kind, nor do I work for any other "individual". I am relaying this issue to you (fuel cut lurch) because it is a true and damn annoying issue on my motorcycle. I did read your post on throttle cables adjustment when it came out (you need to read this), but I'm also aware that the fuel cut can be flash-removed, hence my question to know whether this annoying (in my opinion) function was removed on your EVO flash.

I do enjoy some minor decel with the engine braking due to fuel cut, but the lurches it causes at small speeds are ridiculous. I get from your response that no, you do not remove the fuel cut, but make it work in your favor in both EVO and MR flashes, as long as the throttle cables are adjusted, is this correct?
Best,

JD

--Harley Davidson is king when it comes to turning gas into smoke, without the outcome of power--

Offline Devasya

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 02:19:54 pm »
It was pulling like a mule in 5th and all the other gears. I was impressed particularly by how linear it felt and how my memory of the OEM map was that there had been a  step or that the behavior changed a bit in the mid range in the way many I4 motors like to do, particularly carburetor bikes, and that was now gone.

I cannot imagine what would be different from 5th gear to 6th gear as far as power effects from weather/conditions. Seems like it should slow down on the acceleration rate a little just because of power/gearing. So to me the most likely thing is that I was simply not being careful enough in my controls and data collection.

 Again, I would not want to make a big deal out of this brief test and I plan to get another run at it asap. I will see if I can put a gopro on the dash and provide some more info on the conditions. FYI I was on Banner  Road headed south toward Gig harbor from Port Orchard just south of the Banner Woods. Google maps will show the location and the road.

My concern was not really how fast i was able to go, but that it felt as if the bike was intentionally self- limiting.

One time a few years ago I was riding a CBR1100XX on US 101 near Hoodsport when a deer ran out and t-boned me on the left side. He hit my left hand with his deer skull and his body swung around, missed my leg, and hit the rear of the bike. Pushed me over the fog line into the narrow dirt strip but I saved it. My clutch lever broke off (and my left pinkie was shattered. hurt like hell) and I was far from home. I didn't stop. I realized I had to keep riding because there is no one I can call to save me. The thing was, a piece of plastic from the fairing had come loose and when I went over about 30 mph it flapped and covered one of the air inlet ports on the Blackbird and robbed all the power so that it felt as if something was wrong with the engine when in reality it was starved for air. The subjective feeling of losing power, and the rpm wanting to fall back down was sort of the same.

My Spidey Senses are telling me that when I get a real run at this,  perhaps on US 104 headed out toward Port Angeles between 19 and 101 where it gets wide open and you can see for miles and I  know how my bike behaves (hauls serious, unimpeded a**) I will find there is no issue. I think I can do that tomorrow if I take the afternoon off, because, why not, right?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 02:33:23 pm »

Steve, let me clarify something, in case i may have given you the wrong impression; I'm just a potential customer, trying to figure out if your flash would work for me. I'm sorry if my questions ticked you the wrong way, but there's no hidden intents or agenda behind what I was asking, hence I'm not interested in the comparisons between your Flash and whichever individual you were talking about. I haven't fallen for any sales gimmicks, otherwise I would already have my ECU flashed, and I wouldn't be here asking you this questions as an interested potential customer of your product.

Right now my bike is stock, no flashes of any kind, nor do I work for any other "individual". I am relaying this issue to you (fuel cut lurch) because it is a true and damn annoying issue on my motorcycle. I did read your post on throttle cables adjustment when it came out (you need to read this), but I'm also aware that the fuel cut can be flash-removed, hence my question to know whether this annoying (in my opinion) function was removed on your EVO flash.

I do enjoy some minor decel with the engine braking due to fuel cut, but the lurches it causes at small speeds are ridiculous. I get from your response that no, you do not remove the fuel cut, but make it work in your favor in both EVO and MR flashes, as long as the throttle cables are adjusted, is this correct?

  Man, this stuff is getting complicated. I'm not ticked, and I don't think you're working for / with another person. I understand that you're asking an honest question, and I'm trying to give an honest answer.

  The fact is, as I stated, that I USE fuel cut as part of the deceleration control. Let me help you understand how fuel cut works for you.

   Either do this test, or just think of how your bike acts in this situation... you're on a long deceleration, throttle closed. Maybe going downhill, maybe a long coast to a light in traffic. Have you ever noticed that for no reason the bike stops decelerating and almost feels like you've given it some throttle? Where it has more of a feeling of coasting in neutral with no drag rather than actually decelerating? I have felt that in the stock ECU, and others I've asked about it have felt the same thing.

   Here's what's going on. As the bike is deceling with no fuel, you feel substantial engine braking. When the ECU supplies fuel in this condition (which it does for the catalytic converters) the engine starts making power, and the engine braking is gone or severely limited. Remove the fuel cut, and this will be the effect, a great loss of engine braking.  I know, because that was the primary complaint about my original flash, that it needed more deceleration.  In fact in my Decel flash, I achieved greater deceleration by cutting more fuel from closed throttle operation vs my original flash. If it was that bad, guys like Throttle8 (posted above) would be wanting to ditch their decel flashes as soon as they put them in. That was never the case though.

   Mountain runner takes a completely different approach there, and honestly the guys who are riding it are reporting NO abruptness coming back on throttle, but there is still very usable off throttle engine braking.

  If I were you, I would start out by doing the throttle cable adjustment I outlined and see if that doesn't resolve some of the low throttle issue for you. Then you'll start to see the direction I'm going with all this.

  I hope this fully answers your question.

 Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
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Offline Jerdurr

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Re: Shoodaben Mountain Runner Flash
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 02:44:38 pm »

Steve, let me clarify something, in case i may have given you the wrong impression; I'm just a potential customer, trying to figure out if your flash would work for me. I'm sorry if my questions ticked you the wrong way, but there's no hidden intents or agenda behind what I was asking, hence I'm not interested in the comparisons between your Flash and whichever individual you were talking about. I haven't fallen for any sales gimmicks, otherwise I would already have my ECU flashed, and I wouldn't be here asking you this questions as an interested potential customer of your product.

Right now my bike is stock, no flashes of any kind, nor do I work for any other "individual". I am relaying this issue to you (fuel cut lurch) because it is a true and damn annoying issue on my motorcycle. I did read your post on throttle cables adjustment when it came out (you need to read this), but I'm also aware that the fuel cut can be flash-removed, hence my question to know whether this annoying (in my opinion) function was removed on your EVO flash.

I do enjoy some minor decel with the engine braking due to fuel cut, but the lurches it causes at small speeds are ridiculous. I get from your response that no, you do not remove the fuel cut, but make it work in your favor in both EVO and MR flashes, as long as the throttle cables are adjusted, is this correct?

  Man, this stuff is getting complicated. I'm not ticked, and I don't think you're working for / with another person. I understand that you're asking an honest question, and I'm trying to give an honest answer.

  The fact is, as I stated, that I USE fuel cut as part of the deceleration control. Let me help you understand how fuel cut works for you.

   Either do this test, or just think of how your bike acts in this situation... you're on a long deceleration, throttle closed. Maybe going downhill, maybe a long coast to a light in traffic. Have you ever noticed that for no reason the bike stops decelerating and almost feels like you've given it some throttle? Where it has more of a feeling of coasting in neutral with no drag rather than actually decelerating? I have felt that in the stock ECU, and others I've asked about it have felt the same thing.

   Here's what's going on. As the bike is deceling with no fuel, you feel substantial engine braking. When the ECU supplies fuel in this condition (which it does for the catalytic converters) the engine starts making power, and the engine braking is gone or severely limited. Remove the fuel cut, and this will be the effect, a great loss of engine braking.  I know, because that was the primary complaint about my original flash, that it needed more deceleration.  In fact in my Decel flash, I achieved greater deceleration by cutting more fuel from closed throttle operation vs my original flash. If it was that bad, guys like Throttle8 (posted above) would be wanting to ditch their decel flashes as soon as they put them in. That was never the case though.

   Mountain runner takes a completely different approach there, and honestly the guys who are riding it are reporting NO abruptness coming back on throttle, but there is still very usable off throttle engine braking.

  If I were you, I would start out by doing the throttle cable adjustment I outlined and see if that doesn't resolve some of the low throttle issue for you. Then you'll start to see the direction I'm going with all this.

  I hope this fully answers your question.

 Steve

it does, thanks Steve, and glad you weren't ticked :)
Appreciate your response and enlightenment, since as you can see, I'm an amateur when it comes to mechanics, flashing and fuel mapping. Here in Toronto, my go-to flash would probably be the Evo; there are some hills here, but wouldn't justify the new mountain flash. I will do the throttle cable adjustment this weekend and take it for a spin. I will also take my action camera with me, and see if I can show you that stupid binary engine behaviour that drives me crazy! would it make any difference on that the fact that i have a 2 Brothers slip on installed on my Connie?
Best,

JD

--Harley Davidson is king when it comes to turning gas into smoke, without the outcome of power--