Author Topic: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?  (Read 1417 times)

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Offline Killface

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Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« on: April 21, 2018, 09:39:57 pm »
So I'm struggling trying to get the timing set on my C14. I get everything lined up how it's supposed to be and slightly tighten down the cap with the chain guide. Then, when I install the CCT, it throws everything off. Crank is off by two marks and the cams get thrown out like they're a link forward. I've tried installing the chain back one link on both cams to make up for this and it's worse. Any help would be appreciated.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 09:52:03 pm »
the way this is worded, I'm not sure of what's going on. let me back it up some.

  Bring the crank to 1-4 TDC. then install the EX cam properly, to the marks. Make sure there is NO slack between the EX cam and the crank. Now install the intake cam properly to it's marks, making sure there is no slack between the ex cam and the intake cam. Now all the slack is between the intake cam and the crank. you can use a 3/8" extension through the chain tensioner hole to push the guide and take all the slack out. Not crazy pressure, but push the slack out. Nothing should have moved. Now retract the tensioner and lock it. Bolt it in, and give it a whack with a screwdriver handle to get it to release the lock. You should here it. Now the chain and all timing marks should be correct. HTH, Steve

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Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 10:32:12 pm »
Thanks, Steve! Sorry no back story. Short version; I did a valve adjustment. When riding after it wouldn't idle. All signs pointed to cam chain off by a tooth. Tore it back apart. Want to make damn sure I do it right this time. Here we are. Thank you so much for your reply!

Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 07:48:49 pm »
So, I've messaged Steve about my problem and he told me that setting the final timing should be done with the cam caps in place and everything bolted down. I did this today and the sprocket marks still do not line up with the the cylinder deck as they should. The chain itself does not line up with the cylinder deck correctly. It is mid link with the deck, not in between links 0-1 EX. side and 30-31 IN. side with the crank at TDC 1-4. With everything bolted down and set up as it should be, the IN. sprocket mark is below the deck and the EX. sprocket is above the deck. Adjusting the cams one way or the other throws it out even worse. How likely is it that I have a stretched chain at 24,000 miles?

Offline Deepsea

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 08:15:51 pm »
You're off one tooth on the CRANK sprocket. If you rotate the crank to bring the cam marks into position you'll be off on the crank position approximately 3 degrees. However you're lining everything up when installing the cams if this keeps happening try starting with the crank one chain link before 1 & 4 TDC. Go easy, you'll get this.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 10:48:56 pm »
I gotta go inside, crank up my laptop,nand show photos.. but if timing stator is set to line, exhaust and intake cams are set to line, and pin count on chain from exhaust, to intake are counted and followed, there is no error.. and no, your cam chain hasn't stretched @  24k...
Work backwards, counting pins when cam sprockets are alligned with deck, you count them backwards from the exhaust cam sprocket, and end up with the last one being just above the parting line, as shown, in the FSM.... not vice versa as you seem to be explaining.

#1 pin, sits just above the deck, on exhaust cam, and #30 pin ends up just above the deck, on intake cam...
All cam marks should be "on the line" of the deck, and timing stator perfectly allined with case split line indicating 1-4 TDC.

Without copy /pasting the FSM picture, it makes it difficult..... it was posted recently, I have to dig it up...

Ok, here, this is the allignment, when the timing stator wheel is exactly on botom case parting line for 1-4 TDC
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/idling-woes-after-valve-adjustment/msg633822/#msg633822

« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:02:25 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline jwh20

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 11:07:38 pm »
The image from the Svc Manual is attached.  The procedure detailed there works, and I'm sure that's what MOB has been telling you.

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Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 11:56:41 pm »
Thanks for your help but, I have the service manual and I have that page printed out. I've got the bike torn back down because of an idling issue after a valve adjustment that all signs pointed to my exhaust cam being off a tooth. Just having a hard time getting everything lined up correctly.

Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 11:58:18 pm »
I think you're right. I'm going to attempt this tomorrow. Thanks!

Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2018, 12:01:38 am »
I have been counting from the exhaust cam back. I've tried this a number of times and the cam sprockets do not line up with the cylinder deck when the crank is at TDC.

Offline jwh20

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2018, 12:30:46 am »
I have been counting from the exhaust cam back. I've tried this a number of times and the cam sprockets do not line up with the cylinder deck when the crank is at TDC.

Perhaps if you posted some photos of what you're seeing someone here might be able to help.
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Offline antibus

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 12:58:21 am »
Killface. Can you take pics of the marks after tightening the journal holders?
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Offline Deepsea

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 04:14:39 am »
After you install both cams and the pin count is correct between them but still off the deck line when the crank is at 1 & 4 TDC, turn the crank 4 complete revolutions with a ratchet ending back at 1 & 4 TDC. Now where are the cam timing marks and how many pins are between them? If the intake and exhaust cams are correctly timed to each other but off when at TDC then the chain has moved a tooth on the crank during installation.
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 08:57:24 am »
Note that there is no perfect alignment of sprockets. There are variances, although negligible, that could throw valvetrain alignment off.
Good point people make here is to make sure you aligned crank mark(s) as indicated.
I've had one instance with M30 Beemer engine, where crank point was a smidgen off to one side making cam alignment nightmare similar to what you experience. 

Cheers...


Offline Deepsea

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 10:38:47 am »
Something I've done in the past is to rotate the crank backwards 1/4 turn then taking the slack out of the cam chain while rotating the crank back to TDC. You must then insure the chain remains on the crank sprocket while installing the cams. It's important to maintain tension on the front (Exhaust pipe) side of the chain.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 10:51:03 am »
 Here's something that may help... often when installing cams, you will mount the cam onto the chain where you think it needs to be, but when you tighten the cam down in it's saddles the cam will rotate  or not  be where you think it should be. Sometimes you may have to change the link you've lined up with to get the cam index line where it's supposed to be when it's fully seated in the head. No matter what, you cannot have slack between the Ex cam and the crank. If, when you tighten the  EX cam down it pushes some chain slack down between the cam and crank, you've chosen the wrong link. Re-index 1 link closer to the crank, then tighten the cam down.  HTH, Steve
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Offline Roger B

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 11:48:25 am »
Making sure the timing was correct when I put mine back together after a valve adjustment was a concern for me also.   I know this doesn't help you now, may help others, before I removed the camshafts I used a white marking pencil / paint that I put on the sprocket portion of the camshafts and across the chain links when it aligned with the top portion of the cylinder and I knew exactly everything was aligned.   Good luck.

Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 04:33:09 pm »
I agree with you 100%. I really wish I would have re-marked the chain when I had the valve cover off for the valve adjustment. At some point during re-assembly the stock cam chain marks got wiped off when I put it back together. I added some performance cams to a drag racing atv a couple of years ago and you couldn't have wiped the stock chain marks off that one with an A-bomb. So, I wasn't as concerned with that on my c14. My mistake. Thanks everyone! I realize how frustrating it can be to try and help someone with their machine when you can't be there, in their garage, saying,"This is what you do and how you do it!" I still really appreciate all the input and info I've received! This is a great community! And all of your help tells me I bought a great bike!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 10:42:34 pm »
Making sure the timing was correct when I put mine back together after a valve adjustment was a concern for me also.   I know this doesn't help you now, may help others, before I removed the camshafts I used a white marking pencil / paint that I put on the sprocket portion of the camshafts and across the chain links when it aligned with the top portion of the cylinder and I knew exactly everything was aligned.   Good luck.

In reality, doing that doesn't do diddly squat, because during the procedure, if you disengage the chain, and it drops, you may reposition it incorrectly during the final phases.. the chain itself, is no sure indicator, marking it, and the sprockets aren't either, as all can be moved indepentantly, without issue, only when both sprockets are in position, and stator alligned with marks, does the link pin count into the equation..
If you didn't remove the cam cover gasket, and are trying to allign the cam marks with the top deck, you will probably miss the correct location.. BT/DT...

Stick with it,  and rotate the crank 2 full turns, and recheck.. it should all reallign upon returning to the stator mark..

I will add, this engine is "not" vague with regards to the allignment marks... they are spot on... so, if there is an issue, its an assembly issue on the person doing this service.

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Offline jwh20

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 12:41:25 am »
I will add, this engine is "not" vague with regards to the allignment marks... they are spot on... so, if there is an issue, its an assembly issue on the person doing this service.

2nd that!  This is not a "fine" adjustment.  The scale of this is 1 full link on the cam chain.  The alignment marks are either going to line up or they will be way off and be obvious.
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Offline Roger B

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 11:47:29 am »
Making sure the timing was correct when I put mine back together after a valve adjustment was a concern for me also.   I know this doesn't help you now, may help others, before I removed the camshafts I used a white marking pencil / paint that I put on the sprocket portion of the camshafts and across the chain links when it aligned with the top portion of the cylinder and I knew exactly everything was aligned.   Good luck.

In reality, doing that doesn't do diddly squat, because during the procedure, if you disengage the chain, and it drops, you may reposition it incorrectly during the final phases.. the chain itself, is no sure indicator, marking it, and the sprockets aren't either, as all can be moved indepentantly, without issue, only when both sprockets are in position, and stator alligned with marks, does the link pin count into the equation..
If you didn't remove the cam cover gasket, and are trying to allign the cam marks with the top deck, you will probably miss the correct location.. BT/DT...


Stick with it,  and rotate the crank 2 full turns, and recheck.. it should all reallign upon returning to the stator mark..



When I did my adjustment I kept the chain taught and the marks were still relevant.

I will add, this engine is "not" vague with regards to the allignment marks... they are spot on... so, if there is an issue, its an assembly issue on the person doing this service.

Offline strum

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 02:30:40 pm »
 I wonder how this turned out.  l any one hear from Killface?
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Offline Killface

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2018, 03:31:21 pm »
Hi, Sorry for the late update. So, I ended up pulling the timing rotor and moved the cam chain one pin towards the exhaust cam on the crank sprocket. Thankfully, this fixed the marks not lining up issue. I rotated it about 50 times to make sure!  I learned a valuable lesson in using the right (or wrong) tool for the job because I didn't have a pin style rotor/flywheel holding tool to get the nut off the rotor so I attempted to use my clutch holding tool instead and broke two teeth on the the timing rotor. Whatever the rotor is made of is pretty brittle so be careful with it! I now own a pin type rotor holder! The new timing rotor will take about a week to get here so in the mean time I'm cleaning, degreasing and putting the left side of the bike back together. Thanks everyone for your encouragment and input!

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2018, 07:20:11 pm »
Hi, Sorry for the late update. So, I ended up pulling the timing rotor and moved the cam chain one pin towards the exhaust cam on the crank sprocket. Thankfully, this fixed the marks not lining up issue. I rotated it about 50 times to make sure!  I learned a valuable lesson in using the right (or wrong) tool for the job because I didn't have a pin style rotor/flywheel holding tool to get the nut off the rotor so I attempted to use my clutch holding tool instead and broke two teeth on the the timing rotor. Whatever the rotor is made of is pretty brittle so be careful with it! I now own a pin type rotor holder! The new timing rotor will take about a week to get here so in the mean time I'm cleaning, degreasing and putting the left side of the bike back together. Thanks everyone for your encouragment and input!

WHAT????????!!!!!!?????

 :??: :TPIWWP: :popcorncouple: :hum: :confuse:

I'm sorry, didn't mean to shout, or cause pain, but there is no reason to ever remove that rotor, unless you are replacing the chain...
For timing purposes, it doesn't matter what position the "links" themselves have, relating to the pictures in the manual, only the "pin count".... the links themselves are are "spaced" equally, as are the "link pins", and the chain doesn't "care" whatsoever, if a "link" has been placed one pin off, as they are all equally spaced.... its all about the "pin count", ..
So if after you did this all, I will say the chain itself, was not fully in contact with the bottom sprocket, or it was displaced sidewards somehow when loose, and when pulled, never went back into contact with the plastic sliders, or some such scenario.

Hopefully it all goes well from here on, bummer about the timing rotor expen$e...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 08:49:22 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Dirtwiz

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Re: Should timing be set with the CCT in or out?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2018, 11:25:51 pm »
Reading this makes me happy that I rode my bike 1250 miles one way to Texas to have Fred Harmon do a valve adjust for me. I don't have the patience for this.... but I can afford the $$ to have it done.  ;)
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