Author Topic: Slip ons - manufacturer claims  (Read 4857 times)

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Offline gpd323

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2018, 12:22:03 am »
was this particular dyno run on a stock C14 ECU map?

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2018, 12:50:43 am »
That brings up another question about the db killers, themselves. 

In the case of the 18" delk, the db killer does not appear to hurt it , THAT badly, but I wonder about other systems?

Somehow, I ended up with four Leo Vince exhaust systems. One was on a Suzuki DR350 dirt bike. System two is on an SV650. System three is on a ninja 1000, and system four is my concours 14.

All four systems share the identical db killer?????  Same diameter, same length.  Obviously, theres been huge amounts of engineering in their db killers for each specific bike, or someone just had to build something....

The exhaust systems really have nothing in common as far as length, diameter, shape, etc. other than that same db killer fitting.

RC, I think your reading the Dyno Plots incorrectly when you say "the db killer does not appear to hurt it , THAT badly".
You have to look at it as how does the power (with db killer) compare with the slip on installed, not vs the original muffler..
   {ie; what did you loose}.

I agree, from stock to slip-on with db killer the numbers are approx. the same...
But the installation of a slip-on should help you, not loose power or break even.

The 3rd plot indicates that the slip on can allow the engine to make approx. 3 more hp, 2 ft/lbs of torque.
So that indicates; adding the db Killer to the slip-on lost you approx. 3 hp 2 ft/lbs of torque.

NOTE: My numbers are not exact, using approx. numbers to show the difference..

PS: Your correct. All db killers, pipes, headers, slip-on's, etc are not the same.

       Do you have a full system Leo Vince exhaust system on your bike now?
         If yes,,, congrats / yahoooo!

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:29:28 am by connie_rider »
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Offline Zarticus

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2018, 02:31:30 am »
I have run the Db killer in my CS1 & there is almost no noticeable sound reduction, I could not really notice any performance difference with it in or out either. I now run without it since it seems to do NOTHING.

Gary - i'm waiting on all my new hardware / software for my dyno upgrades now. when it's on the dyno, bring your bike down with the DB killer and we'll do some WOT runs to compare and see what effect the db killer is having. Steve
Sounds good Steve, Let me know when your ready. I might be forced to have the Mountain Runner flash done when I'm there  :)
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Online khager01

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2018, 12:21:15 pm »
The way I am reading the charts 1st one stock 2nd slip-on/with db killer and 3rd slip-on/without db killer.   So just installing the db killer you lose 4.6 hp.
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2018, 12:44:44 pm »
That brings up another question about the db killers, themselves. 

In the case of the 18" delk, the db killer does not appear to hurt it , THAT badly, but I wonder about other systems?

Somehow, I ended up with four Leo Vince exhaust systems. One was on a Suzuki DR350 dirt bike. System two is on an SV650. System three is on a ninja 1000, and system four is my concours 14.

All four systems share the identical db killer?????  Same diameter, same length.  Obviously, theres been huge amounts of engineering in their db killers for each specific bike, or someone just had to build something....

The exhaust systems really have nothing in common as far as length, diameter, shape, etc. other than that same db killer fitting.

RC, I think your reading the Dyno Plots incorrectly when you say "the db killer does not appear to hurt it , THAT badly".
You have to look at it as how does the power (with db killer) compare with the slip on installed, not vs the original muffler..
   {ie; what did you loose}.

I agree, from stock to slip-on with db killer the numbers are approx. the same...
But the installation of a slip-on should help you, not loose power or break even.

The 3rd plot indicates that the slip on can allow the engine to make approx. 3 more hp, 2 ft/lbs of torque.
So that indicates; adding the db Killer to the slip-on lost you approx. 3 hp 2 ft/lbs of torque.

NOTE: My numbers are not exact, using approx. numbers to show the difference..

PS: Your correct. All db killers, pipes, headers, slip-on's, etc are not the same.

       Do you have a full system Leo Vince exhaust system on your bike now?
         If yes,,, congrats / yahoooo!

Ride safe, Ted

Good point, Ted.   When I said, "THAT" much, I had a figure in mind of -10...Meaning, if I lost 10hp, the wife was going to need to by some ear plugs. She probably should buy them, anyway.   She does not have a fairing or any sort of wind protection on her broom. I'm sure it very noisy, at high speed. 

As far as the Leo Vince goes, the two bikes I have (Ninja 1000, concours 14) Leo  Never made a full system for. I wish they did.  Back when I bought them, Leo Vince had several different exhaust systems in their line up that were priced...well, that was their problem.

They had a budget slip on at 350.00, a midrange one at 650, and this full carbon one, on my 14 was more like 800.00-900. Too confusing, and there really was not much difference between the three systems, except price.

I used an Arrow header on my Ninja, but the concours 14 is just running a stock c14 header, at the moment.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 03:36:06 pm by rcannon409 »
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Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2018, 02:33:27 pm »
was this particular dyno run on a stock C14 ECU map?

Greg D

If your asking about my dyno charts, no it wasn't.

It was modified version of SISF's first flash that he offered me to try for him.

I believe he had received some feedback from us northerners and wanted to see some dyno runs to see if he could improve on the product he was offering us.  I liked the idea and it fit right in with me wanting to see a before and after with the slipon.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2018, 03:24:11 pm »
Good point khager01.

I compared Stock vs Slip-on;  138.1 HP / 91.0 ft/lbs  minus 134.6 HP / 89.3 ft/lbs  =  gained 3.5 HP / 1.7 ft/lbs
This indicates, the engine with the Slip-on; gained 3.5 peak HP / 1.7 ft/lbs of torque over the stock muffler

If I compared the Slip-on vs Slip-on "with db killer" {as khager suggests);
                                              138.1 HP / 91.0 ft/lbs  minus 133.5 HP / 89.5 ft/lbs  = lost 4.6 HP / and 1.5 ft/lbs
This indicates, the engine lost 4.6 peak Hp / 1.5 ft/lbs of torque by installing the db killer in the slip-on.

In other words;
By installing the slip-on with db Killer the engine is making 1.16 less peak HP, and 0.2 ft/lbs more torque than the stock muffler.

Bottom Line; By installing a slip-on the engine gained 3.5 peak Hp over the stock muffler.
                    By adding the db killer to the slip-on the engine makes 1.16 less peak Hp than the stock muffler.

NOTE: Geez, that's hard to put into words. I reworded it 8 times to try to make it clearer...
          I hope it isn't too confusing?

IMPORTANT: Remember that dyno numbers are not absolute numbers.
          ie; Dyno's don't repeat run's exactly.
                 There is always a little variance between repeat runs.
                 Different dyno's do not give the same numbers.
                 Different conditions effect the numbers.
                 
               Ideally; On a Dyno you should do several runs with each muffler/condition, and average the numbers.

Ride safe, Ted

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 02:00:40 am by connie_rider »
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Offline strum

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2018, 04:20:15 pm »
 Good thread guys .
  I have a Muzzys slip on and I just love the sound . The bike came with it so I have nothing to compare it to .
 Anyone have data on these?
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2018, 04:53:23 pm »
Muzzy is out of business, it looks like a foriegn company may have purchaes it, based on some of the text I saw.

 To me, all of the slip ons are being fed by a 2" midpipe and are generally a 2" straight core. As such, all the power gains are going to be so close to each other that the differences are insignificant. Steve
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Offline strum

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2018, 07:22:50 pm »
Thanks Steve. So from what Im seeing the "gains" are looks,weight, and sound. Not really a performance thing?
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2018, 07:26:01 pm »
Thanks Steve. So from what Im seeing the "gains" are looks,weight, and sound. Not really a performance thing?

if anyone is buying a slip on for performance, they could find lots of other places to put their money... like in a jar under the big rock on the east side of the old barn  ;) . Seriously, I've seen a few dyno charts over the period of time I've been doing this, and generally a slip on is worth about 3 hp or so on a Concours. Based on primary pipe / cat / midpipe diameter, they're all going to be right at the same power level, despite the significant difference in costs. Steve
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:37:00 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline gpd323

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2018, 10:26:56 pm »
I installed Akrapovic slipons on my ZX14, did the ECU flash and it added 5 hp at WOT at max revs, that was it. TQ was up a bit, not much though. They still sound better and look better, but 5 hp on a bike putting down 171 hp at the rear wheel I bet no one could tell the diff.

I still like mt VH CS1 though on my C14
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2018, 10:49:42 pm »
I have an area p slip on on my bike. I got it in a trade  :)

My two favorites for sound are the the CS1 and the area p.  to me the  2 brothers and the delk ar a bit raspy for my tastes. I have never heard an Akrapovic in the wild, but they do make nice stuff. Steve
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2018, 05:16:21 am »
The only time I didn't regret installing aftermarket mufflers was on R1100S. It was Remus SS. It had transformed unfiltered stackato of boxer engine into GP inspired symphony! Loved it!
Other slip-ons I've tried over the years were more of disappointment than anything else.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2018, 06:52:19 pm »
The Slip-on Manufacturers are suspected of {err} enhancing their HP gains {which helps their sales }...   >:D
From actual dyno runs we've done, the 5 HP they claim is probably about 3-4 HP in the real world....

I'm gonna throw something out for you to ponder;
  For now, let's use 3.5 HP as the real number...
  Everyone here is scoffing at that possible 3.5 HP gain.
  I'm telling you, the 3.5 HP / etc* you gain,,, is not all that insignificant....
      (The etc* part is your main gain)

ie; That 3.5 HP is approx. 1/3 the power you gain (approx. 10 HP) with a good Flash.
     Now couple your new {lighter/Good Lookin'} slip-on with a Flash and the gain becomes more like a 12-15 HP gain..

All of a sudden, the small gains to got by installing that slip-on aren't so insignificant, are they?     ;)

PS*: While I'm stirring the {slip-on} pot; "look at the Torque and AFR plots on turbojoe's Slip-on run"...
      You'll see that the entire torque curve on that plot is smoother/higher,,, "and" the AFR has gone from slightly Rich to almost ideal.. 
                                                                 
          Both of those are "more" important than how much peak HP you gained at 9000 RPM..
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Ride safe, Ted

PS: I'm doing my approx. numbers from memory.
          Steve can correct me if I erred...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 02:22:49 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2018, 09:34:51 pm »
3.5 HP, eh?
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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 11:31:34 pm »
I think the weight you lose should be worth another 1 hp.  Of course I could go on a diet and gain several  hp. 
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Offline ron203

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 11:37:35 pm »
Weight loss: Now's there's a frugal farkle! FREE!!! I'm down 15# since September. Maybe that's worth something! But wait...everything's relative. I bought a heavier helmet and jacket. Crud. :-[
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Offline COGnosticator

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2018, 10:16:48 am »
Good thread guys .
  I have a Muzzys slip on and I just love the sound . The bike came with it so I have nothing to compare it to .
 Anyone have data on these?


Here is a dyno chart from my 2009 with a Muzzy slipon, with a custom map and PCv and flies removed.  Map came from Keith at Fuelmoto where I got the Muzzy and PCv.  Dyno run done by KWS motorsports Charleston SC

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:21:31 am by COGnosticator »
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2018, 12:09:12 pm »
Connie Rider, you make a good point with the 3.5 added hp.....Also, its not as if we have 47 choices on how we could add this 3.5hp.  Our choices at adding power pretty much amount to a reflash and  a pipe. 

Once we get past those two items, cost goes up as well as the need for  a skilled mechanic.
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Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2018, 09:06:23 pm »
Which looks better?
#1


#2


Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2018, 11:39:54 pm »
The fact that you zoomed in and it’s still smaller, aside from looks, makes this an easy answer. #2. Good comparo.
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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2018, 11:51:31 pm »
For those with the Delkevic mufflers, you can modify the baffles by drilling a large hole (3/4") in the front cap and get the best of both worlds, power and a little quieter muffler.
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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 12:02:52 am »
Hi,
      Thanks, for the pic's Pilgrim! :great:

Getting rid of that "potato launcher" was my first mod! :truce:

Jim, I might try that "Hole Trick" on my 18" CF Delk! ;D
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Re: Slip ons - manufacturer claims
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2018, 12:25:50 am »
For those with the Delkevic mufflers, you can modify the baffles by drilling a large hole (3/4") in the front cap and get the best of both worlds, power and a little quieter muffler.

Definitely a good mod. I had to use an air grinder /carbide burr to get +3/4.

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