Author Topic: Smoking C14  (Read 904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Smoking C14
« on: March 21, 2019, 11:53:19 am »
Hi All,
I have a 2008 C14 that I've replaced the valve cover gasket due to leakage.  Everything seem to go well, new gaskets all around and textbook procedure except! for the great idea I had of applying a thin layer of gasket sealant all around the cover gasket instead of just at the cam shaft cutouts.  OK, all done.  The first couple of startups, no problem, ran it for 5-10 minutes all was good.  On the third startup a couple of days later the bike started smoking out the exhaust, a lot.  What went wrong?
My best guess is, because I added the liquid sealant to the entire cover gasket it was enough to lift the cover ever so slightly, this in turn created less compression on the gaskets around the air induction ports at the exhaust valves therefore allowing oil to seep in and burn out the exhaust pipe.
Can anyone confirm this theory?  I'd like a second opinion before I tear this thing apart again.  Any help would be appreciated.
Gordie

Offline IBAJIM

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12891
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 12:07:30 pm »
What type of "liquid" gasket sealer did you use ?

I only use silicone sealer on rubber gaskets, BTW.  And just a thin amount.

Sounds like you just have oil leaking out of the cam cover and onto the exhaust pipe(s).
IBA # 35372  BBG (5-2014)
Great Lakes 100  (2011) 
All Other GRT LKS Rides x2  (2012-2018)
BB1500's x3
Other SS1K's x8  (2009-2017)

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 12:39:48 pm »
I used the black RTV sealant that came with the gasket. Permatex Ultra Black Gasket Maker
Gordie

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 01:39:56 pm »
I still have all the plastic off the bike so I can see the front of the engine, all clean.  The smoke is coming out the tailpipe not around the header.  The oil is being burnt inside the engine.  Is it possible that oil can leak into the exhaust ports from the cam area?  Logically, if the perimeter of the cover is held off by a thicker gasket I'm thinking it would create weaker seal on the internal mating surfaces right? or am I thinking this too hard on this.
Gordie

Offline ghostrider990

  • Crotch Rocket
  • ****
  • Posts: 1033
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 12649
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 02:40:55 pm »
I doubt it's the sealant you used.  Unless you slathered it on to the point of dripping, which is nearly impossible.

I'm going from "fuzzy" memory, but aren't there replacement rubber seats either around the spark plugs or the stick coils in the valve cover that get replaced during a valve check??

is it possible you lost one or misaligned one to allow some oil to pass through to a combustion chamber??

gr
My Horns have Horns.

Offline Jim

  • Scooter
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 03:49:17 pm »
You may have gotten some debris around the valve guide seals and now you have oil smoke at startup. Personally, I wouldn't tear into it just yet. Ride it some and see if it clears up.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 04:39:17 pm »
I still have all the plastic off the bike so I can see the front of the engine, all clean.  The smoke is coming out the tailpipe not around the header.  The oil is being burnt inside the engine.  Is it possible that oil can leak into the exhaust ports from the cam area?  Logically, if the perimeter of the cover is held off by a thicker gasket I'm thinking it would create weaker seal on the internal mating surfaces right? or am I thinking this too hard on this.

hang tight for a couple hours, and let me constructively mull this over, and try to offer a point to look for, but contrary to running it, I suggest NOT running it until we can come up with a solution for you... again, please hang tight for a bit..


I don't think the gasket/sealant is the real issue, but sealant bits/drips, internally may have contributed...

ok, back again...

when you removed the valve cover, did you remove/disasemble the reed valve housings on the top of the valve cover? If so, did you add sealant when re installing them?(they do not require sealant) Were the reeds installed clean, and properly? ( if you didn't remove them, that's fine, we can take any of that out of the equation).

When you removed the valve cover, did you account for all of the hollow dowel pins, that sit adjacent to the spark plugs, and the 4 gaskets that seal the spark plugs and those dowels?
If you cannot say for sure, but that is the area I find would be most likely culprit.
If one or more dowels, went missing, or any of those rubber gaskets there were compromised, oil can be sucked into the air switching valve circuit, and directed to be burned.
.. just as you questioned...you were on the right track there for sure....also insure all those external associated hoses, (airbox and reed covers) are correctly attached.
The only other thing I can think of, is some migration of that sealant, drip internally etc., that could block oil return passages, or a damaged or missing o-ring on one of the 4 internal oil supply crossover tubes, which would allow oil at pressure (that should be being delivered to the cam journals) to "fill" the open cam area, and possibly force its flow past a valve seal...or again a compromised dowel pin seal... can't guarantee that would really occur, just tossing that in for inspection again.

The valve cover area really should never become "pressurized", as it is directly vented down into the crankcase, and the crankcase has a "vent hose" (on the rear side, hidden) that prevents a pressure buildup...(but we have seen a couple that have had blockages of that hose... resulting in some smoking issues... ), but it would be odd to have this "pop up" at the same time you serviced some other area.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 05:30:38 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline IBAJIM

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12891
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 05:39:15 pm »
Good that you don't have a leaky cover gasket.  And a leaky gasket for the spark plugs wouldn't cause oil to get into the cylinders either.  Eventually the plugs would be flooded, tho.

I think MOB is on the right track, as far as the reed valves are concerned ( for what that's worth ).

Did you reconnect the electrical connector that controls the reed valves ?   Did it snap together properly ?
IBA # 35372  BBG (5-2014)
Great Lakes 100  (2011) 
All Other GRT LKS Rides x2  (2012-2018)
BB1500's x3
Other SS1K's x8  (2009-2017)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 06:03:32 pm »
Good that you don't have a leaky cover gasket.  And a leaky gasket for the spark plugs wouldn't cause oil to get into the cylinders either. Eventually the plugs would be flooded, tho.

I think MOB is on the right track, as far as the reed valves are concerned ( for what that's worth ).

Did you reconnect the electrical connector that controls the reed valves ?   Did it snap together properly ?

The spark plug gasket has a dual purpose... It also seals those hollow dowel pins to the air suction circuit....  so, no, it won't "leak into the cylinders", or may not even be compromised at the plug well, but may be split or deformed from sealing the dowel....

gasket in picture is A
dowel is B
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:12:02 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 08:17:07 pm »
Thanks for all your suggestions, I will try and comment on all the questions you all had.
I did replace the cover gasket, spark plug/dowel pin gaskets and the bolt gaskets with new ones.
The only place I put sealant was on the cover gasket and I thought I did a good job of keeping it thin as to not have drips or chunks.
I did clean and refit the reed valves (no sealant used) proper direction and all seated well.  The previous owner had blocked the vent tube to the reed valves and the reed valve motor is not working.  I assume this was done to resolve backfiring issues he had after modifying the muffler.
All dowel pins should be in place and I say "should" because they stayed seated when I removed the cover also, I accounted for them in my button-up review.
Everything looked good inside the top end prior to the cover being reinstalled (this bike has 11K on it).
What's new to me is this air induction system that is intended to burn off exhaust gasses.  I'm kind of leaning towards this as the culprit. With this system inoperative would the reed valves be a consideration?  Aside from excess wear or damage where else can oil enter the cylinder/exhaust from the cam shaft area? Remember, the bike ran great (smoke-free) before I started this leak fix.
Gordie

Offline IBAJIM

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12891
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 08:29:01 pm »
Is it possible for the reed valve assy. to be installed "backwards ?
IBA # 35372  BBG (5-2014)
Great Lakes 100  (2011) 
All Other GRT LKS Rides x2  (2012-2018)
BB1500's x3
Other SS1K's x8  (2009-2017)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 09:33:01 pm »
Is it possible for the reed valve assy. to be installed "backwards ?

not sure... the C10 could allow them to be installed upside down, with difficulty, but I never pulled the ones on my C14 apart... the reeds should face downwards tho.
Maybe after time with the air hose blocked a noted, they could become gacked up, and/or oil could have made it's way into the "path" where fresh air normally flows when the "function was not messed with", I can't say for sure... the electrical part is a "valve", not a pump...
it either opens or remains shut, based on profiles sensed during deceleration. When it opens, it allows clean fresh air to be drawn into the exhaust tract, to "complete" combustion upon rich exhaust air/fuel mixture, unburnt, in the exhaust prior to it "popping".. downstream. When aftermarket Muffler is used, the transition occurs too fast for the reaction time of the air injection, as there is less restriction in the path of the exhaust, which causes it to "pop" on decell even tho the air injection is working...
I'd suggest removing the plug, making sure that the valve is electrically re-connected also, and running it to "clear" anything in that short path... by airflow.

Only other thing I can say would be engine oil overfilled, something messing with a valve oil seal/incorrect valve adjustment... or a very plugged crank case vent tube.

 :??: :??: :??: :truce:
I went down the list, pretty much all I can come up with... attend to those, and fire it up and wring it out to see what happens.... :great: ;)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:52:18 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 09:38:56 pm »
I really do appreciate all your suggestions.  I think riding it is the first thing I'm going to do, if that doesn't work I'm going back in.
Thanks
 :great:
Gordie

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 09:52:55 pm »
 :great: :great: :great:

go for it man...

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline gPink

  • Iron Butt
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
  • MMVIII C XIV
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: Forum
  • Membership Level: Forum Subscriber
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 10:00:40 pm »
What color is the smoke ?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7760
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 10:48:38 pm »
It's sucking the oil past the seal / dowel pin. BTDT. Check to see if maybe one of the pins fell out too. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2019, 10:54:44 pm »
 :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :rotflmao:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7760
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 12:01:52 am »
:great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :rotflmao:

  The exception being that the oil is never getting into the cylinder, so it's not being burned in compression. It flows down the pair port to the backside of the exhaust valve in the exhaust port, and of course smokes it up from there.  ;) Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 12:10:36 am »
10-4
I neglected to clarify the path, after it goes into the dowel... my bad... did I do ok on the other 'splainin' tho?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

time for some soup, and TV, for me.... :57: :08: :bedtime2:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline IBAJIM

  • Bicycle
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12891
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 01:39:40 am »
It's sucking the oil past the seal / dowel pin. BTDT. Check to see if maybe one of the pins fell out too. Steve

Thank you, Steve.  I'll keep that in mind when I check / adjust my valves in a few months.
IBA # 35372  BBG (5-2014)
Great Lakes 100  (2011) 
All Other GRT LKS Rides x2  (2012-2018)
BB1500's x3
Other SS1K's x8  (2009-2017)

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

  • Industry Member
  • I Need a Life
  • *
  • Posts: 7760
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 6977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 01:51:55 am »
10-4
I neglected to clarify the path, after it goes into the dowel... my bad... did I do ok on the other 'splainin' tho?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

time for some soup, and TV, for me.... :57: :08: :bedtime2:

  Rich, of course you nailed it.. I just added color commentary. Steve
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
C-10 Carb work , cams, & performance enhancements
 " Modifications for sport-tourers, BY a sport-tourer"
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/home

Offline strum

  • Street Cruiser
  • ****
  • Posts: 654
  • AREA: Southeast Area
  • COG#: 12307
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 12:46:55 pm »
It's sucking the oil past the seal / dowel pin. BTDT. Check to see if maybe one of the pins fell out too. Steve


 Because Steve said check to see if one of the pins fell out I would be very hesitant to ride it yet . I know it sucks to have to open it back up but having a pin floating around in there does not sound good to me. I say for peace of mind open it back up . All you'll be out is some time.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Gordie

  • Big Wheels
  • Posts: 9
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 12885
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 07:45:58 pm »
The smoke is white/blue I think, it's been a couple of weeks.  To your point Strum, I think I will just tear into it again and make sure everything looks OK, it's only time in the shop and who doesn't like that eh.
Thanks again guys for all your help.  I'll report back after this weekend to let you know what I find.
Gordie

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 07:51:53 pm »
Thanks for all your suggestions, I will try and comment on all the questions you all had.
I did replace the cover gasket, spark plug/dowel pin gaskets and the bolt gaskets with new ones.
.........
All dowel pins should be in place and I say "should" because they stayed seated when I removed the cover also, I accounted for them in my button-up review.
Everything looked good inside the top end prior to the cover being reinstalled (this bike has 11K on it).
........

Strum,
he seemed sure, but it's always good to caution and re-think, even tho he said he had everything in order...   I guess I would also re-check, it wouldn't be the first time I "pulled it apart" and looked, after sleeping on a niggling thought... we all can make a mistake when someone isn't double eyeballing our work...
Now when I think about it.... I don't think I should have said ride it.. I'd run it on my lift, see if the smoke clears up rapidly... but if it continues, jump right back in and pull that cover, and fix the issue... tough call to make.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • I Need a Life
  • ******
  • Posts: 8969
  • AREA: North Central Area
  • COG#: 5977
  • Membership Level: Active
Re: Smoking C14
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 07:54:16 pm »
The smoke is white/blue I think, it's been a couple of weeks.  To your point Strum, I think I will just tear into it again and make sure everything looks OK, it's only time in the shop and who doesn't like that eh.
Thanks again guys for all your help.  I'll report back after this weekend to let you know what I find.


 :great:
I feel better now, and I know you will also... thank you. ;) :beerchug:

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW
and if you are gonna call me names... it's MR. Analdweeb if you please...