Author Topic: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized  (Read 302 times)

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Offline Baggerjohn

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Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« on: August 12, 2017, 07:16:10 pm »
In the middle of servicing the driveline of my '12 and am getting ready to remove the driveshaft to moly the front splines before putting everything back together and installing the rear wheel.

The bolt which goes into the rear sub-frame and which acts to hold the footpeg bracket in place is apparently seized. It's taking enough torque at this point that the hex head is beginning to deform a bit.

I've tried PB Blaster + heat on the bolt + more PB, etc. Still won't budge.

Anyone else run into this and how did you fix it?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 07:30:02 pm »
Grind the tip end of your hex key down to remove the chamfered surface on tyghe tip completely... a griding wheel, of belt sander works, just make sure the end is perfectly straight, and has no chamfered edges... then, pound it into the bolt head, and use a strong breaker bar while keeping it pressed into the socket head...
The allows a much better engagement fully to the bolt/hex interface.. and those clean, sharp corners add an additonal 20% more contact surface, broaching the hex to the bottom when pounded on...
If you have an impact, use it, but be careful, and don't strip out that hex.....
Also, needless to say, make sure you are using a metric key.....
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 07:37:09 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 08:03:57 pm »
Tried all of the above.

Head strippage, even with a slightly oversized 6mm hex key socket (which was used after a regular 6mm began to round things out).

Next steps? Drill the head off the thing, remove the sub-frame bracket and get Vice-Grips on the remaining threads? A better approach?

Offline BDF

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 08:30:31 pm »
If you can find a Torx bit that is slightly oversize, get one that is hardened (NOT chromed or black oxide finished) and hammer it into the fastener. That will provide all the torque you are going to get to that fastener. Then use an impact tool rather than direct force (torque); impacts work much, much better than simple force (try driving a nail in by pushing on the hammer rather than swinging it as an example). An air impact tool, an electric impact tool or a hammer- driven impact tool will all be far better than straight torque.

IF all of that fails, then yes, drill out the head and remove the bracket. Whether or not the remaining stud comes out depends entirely on why it was 'stuck' in the first place; if it was excessive stretch (too tight), then the stud should be removable via pliers, vice grips or similar. If it is siezed in the hole, and the head of the screw was not enough to turn it, then the body (stud) is almost certainly not going to be enough either. At this point, I use a left- handed drill, just a smidgen under the tap- drill size for the fastener and drill out the stud, being extremely careful to keep the drill centered in the stud. At some point, enough material will be relieved that the stud will almost certainly turn out through drill force and heat and if not, then there is little enough material in the way to 'worry tap' a cutting tap (a gun tap) through the hole and clean it up for the next fastener..... which should be installed with anti- seize IMO and at my house, always.

Best of luck with this, these things can be a cast- iron B!t$h and the key is always to leave the non- replaceable parts (such as the frame) intact and with a full threaded hole for the next fastener.

Brian

Tried all of the above.

Head strippage, even with a slightly oversized 6mm hex key socket (which was used after a regular 6mm began to round things out).

Next steps? Drill the head off the thing, remove the sub-frame bracket and get Vice-Grips on the remaining threads? A better approach?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 08:33:35 pm »
Oh, man... that sux bigtime... which bolt? Upper rear, or one of the deeply recessed ones?
Did you gat all the others out?
If you had a welder and it was the upper rear one.. I might say weld a nut on it, and try that approach, but other than that... looks like a torture job from hades.
I'm not a big fan, or believer in drilling bolt heads off, as frequently when that is accomplished, there ain't nothing to grip with vicegrips... and those bolts are made out of cheese... making it even worse...

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Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 08:43:14 pm »
It's the upper rear one.

The others came out easy-peasy.

Will try the Torx bit next...

Offline old n slow

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 09:22:05 pm »
The best "liquid wrench" is a 50 50 combo of acetone and plain ol automatic trans fluid, but BE CAREFUL....it will damage paint. I read this in a reputable magazine, Popular Mechanics(?), they did independant testing.

I have used it with success.
Mike D.   

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Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 03:56:30 pm »
...If you had a welder and it was the upper rear one.. I might say weld a nut on it, and try that approach...
Update:

Bolt is out.

I now have a nice 1/2" drive electric impact wrench (Chicago Electric 68009) and a set of Torx T-series impact bits, courtesy of my local Harbor Freight. Of course, this didn't do anything but completely round out the Allen head.

Thus, it was time for Plan B. Plan C involves tactical nukes, but since I actually want to RIDE the bike afterwards... :))

Welded a nut on the fastener with my MIG welder. Three 1/4" fillets didn't hold so I repositioned everything and turned the amperage up a tad. Got about 3/4 of the circumference of the head/nut intersection with a decently penetrating melt. Once cool I dressed the flats up a bit with a file and applied socket plus breaker bar.

Lo and behold, turnage. And with it, the secret of the seize:

Someone, somewhere put red Loc-Tite on that fastener. Wasn't me, as I've had the bike since brand new.

This beggars a couple of questions...

  • Why would permanent threadlocker be used on a component which has to be removed for routine servicing?
  • Has anyone else on the forum run into this on your C14?


Offline BDF

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 04:24:59 pm »
Just a thought but perhaps it was dark orange? If so, that is what Kawasaki uses on their bikes, on all the 'we do not want this to fall out' fasteners. It is not Loctite or even a similar compound, in fact, it is used totally dry on the fastener, not a liquid. And it is only applied as a round dot on one side of the screw, certainly less than 50% of the surface. So this is some seriously potent stuff and you are not the first one  to come up against it.

It also leaves a lot of debris in the hole and makes re- using the same fastener tough. Not a problem in your case though :-)

Glad to hear it worked and you made out OK. Sorry the Torx idea did not work but again, it is the very best way I know of to move fasteners that have an internal hex drive. Unless the head is totally exposed (Boys!) and you can cut a slot in it with a Dremel too cut- off wheel or better, an angle grinder w/ cut- off wheel, and apply a thick, hardened, hex drive straight- slot screwdriver bit. If the head is thick enough, and the slot is deep enough and square, that method will turn the head off the fastener eventually. But it does not work on countersunk hardware.

The nuke thing works but requires Fed. licensure or you could face a felony. Unless home- made, like my hero David Hahn would use, and probably would have gotten the official Kawasaki tight bolt loosening Boy Scout badge to go with his BSA Atomic Energy Merit Badge. Still, always a great Plan C.  :great:

Brian

Update:

Bolt is out.

I now have a nice 1/2" drive electric impact wrench (Chicago Electric 68009) and a set of Torx T-series impact bits, courtesy of my local Harbor Freight. Of course, this didn't do anything but completely round out the Allen head.

Thus, it was time for Plan B. Plan C involves tactical nukes, but since I actually want to RIDE the bike afterwards... :))

Welded a nut on the fastener with my MIG welder. Three 1/4" fillets didn't hold so I repositioned everything and turned the amperage up a tad. Got about 3/4 of the circumference of the head/nut intersection with a decently penetrating melt. Once cool I dressed the flats up a bit with a file and applied socket plus breaker bar.

Lo and behold, turnage. And with it, the secret of the seize:

Someone, somewhere put red Loc-Tite on that fastener. Wasn't me, as I've had the bike since brand new.

This beggars a couple of questions...

  • Why would permanent threadlocker be used on a component which has to be removed for routine servicing?
  • Has anyone else on the forum run into this on your C14?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 06:19:17 pm »
Glad to hear you got it fixed, and something I suggested actually worked for you... I have messed with.issues like this many times, and could see clearly the best option available.... now you know why I suggested it, inlieu of drilling the head off.... which wouldn't have helped due to the threadlocker... and probably would have made it virtually impossible then, to weld on a nut.

As noted, various screws/bolts on this bike have a cured on agent prior to their installation... its more like a cyano acrylate adhesive, which "melts" in the threads from the friction on inerstion using the high speed assembly wrenches at the factory... my opinion is its 10x more robust than it needs to be...
The bolts on the brake rotors, and also the engine frame stiffeners that need to be removed for valve adjusts also have a coating on them... those have an orange glue, the red may be similar, or even stronger, but color doesn't dictate anything relative, as they use propriatry stuff... not LokTite products like we use, ..
Could be purple, and that makes no difference... its just another foible we must endure..  also, on many of these, Kaw notes to "replace them" with new, pre applied goo coated bolts... not ever gonna happen.. don't....
 Now that you will need a new bolt, if you buy a factory one... because that bolt does have an odd head shape, clean that glue of using a stainless wire wheel, chucked in your drillpress,nand remove it all... use a "mild" thread locker at reassembly, and also run a tap into that hole, and remove as much of that welded on glue from the threads... I do this myself when doing the frame stiffeners during a valve adjust... I use a cheap, low strength, non permanent product, sparingly, and it has had no issues as of yet... oh, its purple.... go figure, but it ain't LokTite ...

The heat when applied during that welding is what actually assisted,  when doing socket head bolts like his one, when I weld on a nut I fill the nut and the socket hole in the bolt head fully with my molten weld puddle to effect the weld, which tends to be easier than trying a "perimeter" weld, and also works on heads inside of recesses,.where the perimeter of the bolt is inaccessable...

When I tested the bolts from my valve adjust, after getting them out, trying to find a solvent to remove the crusty remains of that orange sealant... I could find nothing that would disolve it...acetone, MEK, Carbon Tet, 3 types of alcohols, BrakeKleen, nor even Gasoline, would disolve it...  propane torch would scorch it, but it would recrysatilze immediatly.. tough stuff... totally overkill... it was even a pain to remove using the wire wheel method, and re tapping was messy also..
I used a thread "chaser" tap, which did not remove all the adhesive from the roots of the threads, and still couldn't hand tighten a bolt until I used a full sharp tap

Hope this info has been helpful...

Didn't think to mention nuclear approaches, as that wasn't an option giable.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 11:33:45 am »
BDF and MOB,

Spot-on with the observations and suggestions. This ain't my first mechanical rodeo with a C-14. It IS with one which has been chemically welded together.

There wasn't just a 'dab' of threadlocker on this bolt - the entire thing was coated. When I had to take my '08 apart for this procedure, the fastener did just have a dab. Harder to get out than an uncoated bolt but still doable without boogering the head.

The '12 was in a whole 'nother league.

I have four of the required bolts inbound, along with four of each of the lobular-style self locking nuts that are used on the two bolts which hold the final drive to the swingarm. What's the board's consensus on re-using the original nuts, or should they be pitched?

ETA:

The impact wrench I bought actually did have a use - spun that bottom nut (20mm) right off. A 2ft, 1/2" dr. breaker bar was doing nothing but picking the bike off the ground.

Success merely indicates that I now need a proper collection of impact sockets, as I don't want to ruin my regular mechanic's sockets with a hammer tool. I see a couple sets of Grey Pneumatics in my future.

Dayum. This project is getting expen$ive. Or am I looking for excuses to buy tools?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:41:36 am by Baggerjohn »

Offline jwh20

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 12:50:15 pm »
The "red" threadlocker that you see on some of the Kawasaki fasteners is not the same as "Red Loctite".  It's some other type of threadlocker with some filler in it but it behaves more like "Blue Loctite". 

But the electric impact driver is a handy tool!  It quickly persuades many of those fasteners that get corrosion-welded into place to come loose.

I recently was working on another local guy's C14 and we were attempting to take the rear wheel off for a tire change.  The bolt that holds the rear brake caliper bracket to the swing-arm wouldn't budge with a wrench, so I broke out my electric impact.  It wouldn't budge.  So I got my 1/2" drive 400 ft-lb air impact.  Still nothing.  Finally I got out the 3/4" impact that says it's good for 1500 ft-lb.  About 1/2 second of that and the bolt was loose.  The threads had a lot of corrosion on them so it's no wonder that it was frozen solid.
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Offline BDF

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 01:40:42 pm »
The orange stuff staggered me twice, on those very two parts you mention, the front brake rotors and the frame / engine forward mounts. The frame had one bolt I did not think I was going to get out although it did finally move, and of course that was on someone elses' bike,  and the rotors had about half that really resisted, and those are shallow drive heads but at least that was on my bike so I was not responsible to anyone else for mangling his bike.

The orange thread locking agent is probably a plus for Kawasaki as it results in fewer fastener failures but can and has been a nightmare for many of us. It is far beyond any Loctite product in effectiveness and hardiness and strikes me as a negative 'feature' of the bike.

Brian

Glad to hear you got it fixed, and something I suggested actually worked for you... I have messed with.issues like this many times, and could see clearly the best option available.... now you know why I suggested it, inlieu of drilling the head off.... which wouldn't have helped due to the threadlocker... and probably would have made it virtually impossible then, to weld on a nut.

As noted, various screws/bolts on this bike have a cured on agent prior to their installation... its more like a cyano acrylate adhesive, which "melts" in the threads from the friction on inerstion using the high speed assembly wrenches at the factory... my opinion is its 10x more robust than it needs to be...
The bolts on the brake rotors, and also the engine frame stiffeners that need to be removed for valve adjusts also have a coating on them... those have an orange glue, the red may be similar, or even stronger, but color doesn't dictate anything relative, as they use propriatry stuff... not LokTite products like we use,

<snip>

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Offline BDF

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 01:47:26 pm »
If the whole fastener was coated, maybe Kawasaki upped the game. That would really be unfortunate 'cause the original method was a bit too much IMO.

I do not know about a consensus but personally, I re- use any and all fasteners that have not been damaged, either the drive (internal hex, outside hex flats, whatever) or the threads themselves. If coated with that junk, I still re- use them. And I do not subscribe to Kawasaki's instruction that having used a fastener causes a condition change and necessitates changing that fastener because no one uses fasteners tightened so much that they drive the stud into a state of deformation. Frankly, that would be ridiculous. Of course there is nothing wrong with replacing fasteners each time they are removed, it is just expensive and with some of the screws we are talking about, they some of them are going to come coated with that dreaded thread locker so the adventure can begin all over again the next time they need to be removed.

Brian

BDF and MOB,

Spot-on with the observations and suggestions. This ain't my first mechanical rodeo with a C-14. It IS with one which has been chemically welded together.

There wasn't just a 'dab' of threadlocker on this bolt - the entire thing was coated. When I had to take my '08 apart for this procedure, the fastener did just have a dab. Harder to get out than an uncoated bolt but still doable without boogering the head.

The '12 was in a whole 'nother league.

I have four of the required bolts inbound, along with four of each of the lobular-style self locking nuts that are used on the two bolts which hold the final drive to the swingarm. What's the board's consensus on re-using the original nuts, or should they be pitched?

ETA:

The impact wrench I bought actually did have a use - spun that bottom nut (20mm) right off. A 2ft, 1/2" dr. breaker bar was doing nothing but picking the bike off the ground.

Success merely indicates that I now need a proper collection of impact sockets, as I don't want to ruin my regular mechanic's sockets with a hammer tool. I see a couple sets of Grey Pneumatics in my future.

Dayum. This project is getting expen$ive. Or am I looking for excuses to buy tools?
KiPass keeping you up at night? Has the low fuel warning burned your retinas? Find peace, harmony and the answer to these problems. www.incontrolne.com

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 01:54:56 pm »
There's a couple "gotcha" components to this, one being that stuff that should be loctited isn't (fairing stay bolts) and other stuff is welded with locktite. And the second gotcha is the use of TTY bolts everywhere - and they are soft. Real soft, and the head deform before enough torque to remove them is applied. Not just on this model, Kaw is using tty on all models. Sucks, because they want to strip heads and threads "just because" . I have a pretty well regulated wrench hand, and these bolts have been a pita, even with my general ability to never overdo torque or get sloppy on removal. Steve
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 02:23:53 pm »
I'm sure Kawasaki uses these soft bolts, and I agree, many are WAY too soft, because soft steel bolts are less expensive than graded hardened bolts.  This sucks but who doesn't buy a new motorcycle after looking over the bolts and saying to the salesperson, "Hey, you guys used Grade 5 bolts here and they really should be Grade 8!"
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Offline Baggerjohn

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Re: Sub-frame bracket removal - bolt seized
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2017, 02:46:31 pm »
I have a pretty well regulated wrench hand...
Ditto. Been turning them on street bikes since the early 80s and I couldn't count the number of bikes I've worked on over that time, let alone the number of fasteners I've loosened or tightened.

Quote
and these bolts have been a pita, even with my general ability to never overdo torque or get sloppy on removal.
Another ditto, and on this particular Concours. My '08 hasn't been as...persnickety...in the bolt department. Not by a long shot.