Author Topic: Tin coated Copper wire  (Read 807 times)

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Offline cuda

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Tin coated Copper wire
« on: February 15, 2019, 10:53:16 pm »
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 11:21:25 pm »
I've heard someone call our wiring aluminum wire, No it's not

https://support.industry.siemens.com/tf/WW/en/posts/advantages-of-tin-coated-copper-wire/109263?page=0&pageSize=10

well... go out to the garage, take the plastic tailpiece off behind the seat, dig in there an rooot around and pull out the tail light and turn signal wires; cut them, strip them, and scrape them with a knife... and tell me they are copper... then, 'try' to solder a jumper to one...
 :-[ ::) :-[ ::)

sorry... but..... unnn uhhh

I never said "all" of the wires are aluminum, but SOME are...
by the way, there are no "tinned" copper wires on a C14...
The internet is a great tool... but doing power equipment for 20+ years, I'll never "quote" a "single source" a being widespread commonality.

peace, ride safe
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 11:30:00 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline bajasam

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 12:51:14 am »
Usually due to higher cost tin coated copper is used on high quaility marine equip and boats.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 01:58:28 am »
Usually due to higher cost tin coated copper is used on high quaility marine equip and boats.
has nothing to do with marine equipment... I designed power equipment for subs, and many Navy applications.If it wasn't concerning them, it wasn't a concern...and as it is on our tax dollars for expense, using wire made from "unObTainium" if proven works, no matter the price... they would have bought it... :rotflmao: They never used pretinned copper anywhere. Even "spec'd" pure copper everywhere...

actually, it's used to reduce the cost of pre-tinning component wires, utilized in automated high speed assembly of circuit boards and components, with wires in the range of 24awg thru 16awg, which are fed/stripped/snipped and assembled by solder connections, or crimp pin/inserted to plug connections. Called "component wire"; These industries are where you find the "rolls of pre-tinned stranded copper wire" prevalent..
The "tinning" of stripped ends, reduces the extra steps,(strip, clean,flux,tin,clean) and the contamination, and health risk, during the overall assembly.. pretty much the "conductive" wire, is never compromised past the first 1/4" of the 'stripped/manually tinned' end, by most environmental concern. High amp/medium voltage (=<600v) do not really see any benefits, even when carrying high amp loads like maybe a 750mcm/kcmil (horsedik sized, just kidding) cable is concerned. Pre-tinned stranded wire also come in multiple forms: pre-tinned twisted strands of copper, individually pre-tinned strands combined within the insulating sheath, or even a combo of both methods.  All in all, when processed like this, these wires/cables become very stiff, and preclude bending parameters for insulated bare stranded/twisted cables, making them out of the NEMA/UL specs, for internal "containment/bend radius" within "enclosures" where wire "bend" is critical to reduce enclosure size.. so pretty much big tinned cables are used in long straight runs, environmentally exposed under the "hopes" they will increase longevity.  really the termination points, the actual connectors at the end of the wires, are the weakest links...

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Offline bajasam

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 02:37:15 am »
Apparently we've discovered one thing you don't know <deleted> about..........Lol


I have deleted your attempt to bypass the filter and caution you to discuss the subject rather than personally attack the thread originator/participants.

MODERATOR
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 03:34:00 pm by kv5e »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 05:03:36 am »
Apparently we've discovered one thing you don't know shite about..........Lol

anytime son, anytime..

 you've been getting bolder...are you just egging me on?
and why?


I typed a long response to you, but ditched it.. I did save a copy, let me know if you want to read it.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 05:32:09 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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Online kv5e

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 01:45:23 pm »
Back to the subject of wire and no personal attacks. We can discuss issues with some alacrity, but not personally attacking others as the basis of a position. :beerchug:

Offline RWulf

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 08:09:44 pm »
25 years with the Bell System. I have never seen any pre-tinned wire, connectors yes, but wire no.
Bell system uses low voltage signals, this is where copper shines.

Offline tonyb

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 04:30:42 pm »
I never said "all" of the wires are aluminum, but SOME are...
by the way, there are no "tinned" copper wires on a C14...
MOB, very interesting bit of information - does this apply to the C10 as well?

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 07:38:43 pm »
I never said "all" of the wires are aluminum, but SOME are...
by the way, there are no "tinned" copper wires on a C14...
MOB, very interesting bit of information - does this apply to the C10 as well?

no aluminum on the C10 (that I have seen, and I have looked at many full harness' and have some full harness' in boxes).
On those harness' there are quite a few "tinned" ends, where crimp pins (that fit in the plastic connector housings) and other crimp connections exist, but they are all "just manually tinned ends".

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Offline cuda

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2019, 01:35:20 am »
Went to the local speed shop that I've dealt with before, the owner professionally drag races a ZX 14R, Him and his wife both drive ZX 14R street bikes, If you want Nitrous or Turbo installed  it's the place to go, yes they have a Dyno  and all mechanics are over 50 that have spent their whole lives working on all kind of bikes, I asked them about aluminum wiring on Kawasaki  cycles, they laughed and said did you read that on a bike forum :D , I asked about adjusting my valves, he told me to save my money, Kawasaki 1400 has the least amount of problems of any motor they have seen.
I guess they never worked on the turn signals.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 01:49:38 am »
Went to the local speed shop that I've dealt with before, the owner professionally drag races a ZX 14R, Him and his wife both drive ZX 14R street bikes, If you want Nitrous or Turbo installed  it's the place to go, yes they have a Dyno  and all mechanics are over 50 that have spent their whole lives working on all kind of bikes, I asked them about aluminum wiring on Kawasaki  cycles, they laughed and said did you read that on a bike forum :D , I asked about adjusting my valves, he told me to save my money, Kawasaki 1400 has the least amount of problems of any motor they have seen.
I guess they never worked on the turn signals.

so between those 2 answers to questions you asked him...

a) are you going to pull the plastic panel behind the seat, grab the turn signal wires, snip one and strip it... look at it, scrape the strands with a knife, and try to solder it back together...?
b) stop inspecting valves..?

and
c) gonna believe him, and hand him $$$?

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

come on man, you been here long enough. Do the wire test... go ahead... then tell HIM what YOU found.
You don't have to believe me.. I don't really care.. I DID do wire splices to get turn signal to my trailer.

Local Speed Shop... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

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Offline BigK

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 09:37:36 pm »
MOB I agree with you. My 08 had cooper wire to tail light. Ran hyper led lights and a helmet brake light transmitter off of it. 2017 cheaper wire and could not use helmet brake light transmitter with hyper lights, kept blowing fuse. I guess they need to save some weight?  :)
Kevin
Indy AAD

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2019, 09:56:48 pm »
MOB I agree with you. My 08 had cooper wire to tail light. Ran hyper led lights and a helmet brake light transmitter off of it. 2017 cheaper wire and could not use helmet brake light transmitter with hyper lights, kept blowing fuse. I guess they need to save some weight?  :)

Thanks for that info,
when I found the funky wire, it was on my '08, but I found it when I was trying to tie in my turn signals in the rear, to my trailer harness... upon finding it, which really had me p/o'd, I ended up using scotch lok insulation displacement splices for the other signal, and tail/brake lights... before I actually cut them  >:( :truce:  so I stopped at cutting 2 wires.. and unplugged my soldering iron.

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Offline Salish14

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2019, 01:58:54 am »
I'm an avid sailor as well as rider, and this is an interesting thread aside from the petty personal stuff. There is no doubt whatsoever that the ABYC calls for tinned copper wiring on sailboats. Not sure anyone here suggested otherwise, but just look up boat cable on your favorite search engine. Beyond that, it cannot be solid wire the way you find in houses. It has to be multi strand in order to resist the breaking that comes with vibration on boats. The company Ancor makes high grade marine cable. I don't work for them.

Of course, the issue on boats is long cable runs. And voltage drop in DC systems. Have yet to see a bike that is 32' long, but that's about how far my windlass cables need to go aboard my boat. Talk about thick cabling!

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ancor-14-awg-single-conductor-cable
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Offline bajasam

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2019, 12:12:34 pm »
I'm an avid sailor as well as rider, and this is an interesting thread aside from the petty personal stuff. There is no doubt whatsoever that the ABYC calls for tinned copper wiring on sailboats. Not sure anyone here suggested otherwise, but just look up boat cable on your favorite search engine. Beyond that, it cannot be solid wire the way you find in houses. It has to be multi strand in order to resist the breaking that comes with vibration on boats. The company Ancor makes high grade marine cable. I don't work for them.

Of course, the issue on boats is long cable runs. And voltage drop in DC systems. Have yet to see a bike that is 32' long, but that's about how far my windlass cables need to go aboard my boat. Talk about thick cabling!

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ancor-14-awg-single-conductor-cable
Thats for sure,I just chuckle when I see guys using regular copper automotive battery cables in their boat just to save 20 bucks,that stuff won't last one season below deck,you must have the tin to prevent the rapid corrosion of the highly reactive copper.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Offline Salish14

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2019, 04:26:44 am »
Great find MOB! Count me among those who wrongly thought the ABYC required it. I'm a damn fastidious boat maintenance guy, and none other than Don Casey and Nigel Calder call for tinned cable in their revered boat maintenance manuals. The article you link makes the point that to have non-tinned cable work fine, you need well sealed cable ends in ALL places. Well, of course. This is a standard that is hard to meet, and overwhelmingly difficult to retrofit. Seems no dispute that tinned cable is less corrosion prone, and that with imperfect cable ends, a better choice. But it is evidently not an ABYC requirement, just highly recommended by the authorities in the field.

In Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance  Manual, he says on page 454: " The additional cost of tinned wire is nominal, and the benefits substantial. Under normal circumstances use only tinned wire."

Nigel Calder in Boatowners's Mechanical and Electrical Manual says on page 157 that "If buying a boat...that you intend to keep for any length of time, I recommend you insist on tinned cable."

So it was from these two authorities that I got my information on the importance of tinned cable on boats. According to them, it provides an extra margin of safety against corrosion in those far away and hidden places wires run on boats.

We are on a side tangent here, but an interesting discussion. Our bikes don't live in a salt water environment, and a failure of any wire is only going to leave you on the side of the road, instead of dead in the water many miles from shore.
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Offline Boomer

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2019, 04:39:50 pm »
My 08 has copper wires. I soldered to them when I tapped for my trunk brake light. They did have a coating but it wasn't tin. More of a black colour. With enough heat I eventually managed to solder it.
George "Boomer" Garratt
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Offline RWulf

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2019, 05:11:44 pm »
Boomer. I think that black coating you were working with is corrosion. If you scraped
it you could see copper under it. And yes it is a bitch to solder that way. With enough
heat you can solder Thur it.
Using crimp connectors the actual electrical connection is make with a process called
"Cold Flow" it's where two soft metals flow around each other. The actual mating, flowing
of the two metals is where the transfer of electrons take place. All the wire around this
contact area can corrode and not effect the connection. The place where the two metals
flow around each other is sealed and will not corrode.
The problem is the right amount of force must be used to produce cold flow.
The right crimping tool is recommended.

Offline gilbysan

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2019, 11:39:17 pm »
Interesting topic!  I was consulting for MSFT to our Superior Courts and sat through a civil case where the family of a security guard was suing a Marine wiring supplier for providing dry land cabling to a boat under going a retro-fit, the substandard wiring corroded, then smoldered in a locked and sealed compartment until the guard opened the door, gave the fire some fuel; it flashed over him and he was killed.  All very tragic and very avoidable.

The supplier (owner) stated that they in fact sold the correct wiring type, etc. Then, the Plaintiffs experts got on the stand; a former Secret Service IT Forensic expert who found a bunch of deleted emails from the owner telling the sales guy to just sell the non-marine grade wiring, "they'll never know", etc. etc. etc.  Guess what?  They can tell that kind of thing after the fact.  There was more to it; the owner used his business as a piggy bank for his girlfriend/secretary's gifts and such.  As it turned out the wife, his accountant and the now Ex GF all lined up against him.

Yes there was a big award and the PA was considering criminal charges against the now bankrupt and lonely owner.  It must have really sucked to be him, and I do not have any sympathy for his plight...

Gilbysan


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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Tin coated Copper wire
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 08:30:57 pm »
I would have liked to have been there and listened to that court case, because I bet there were more hidden/untold "facts" about the installation than simply the tinned wire vs non tinned wire... like improper sizing of wire per ampacity rating, insulation rating type, improperly installed terminations, improper routing and retention of cables, and overall shoddy workmanship. Not even to mention improper ventilation of the closed areas..

Granted the defendant slit his own throat in making statements "they will never know".. but there is more than than meets the ear...
sounds like the defendant needed a better attorney, and better documentation.

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