Author Topic: TPMS Batteries (Read 10015 times)

Mad River Marc · « **on:** June 18, 2017, 01:42:45 pm »

So I need to change the batteries in my TPMS sensors and I was digging through my fridge for some 2032 battery to start soldering leads to. (As an electronics tinkerer I usually have a lot of oddball batteries

)

That got me to thinking, while I know a lot of people do it as a matter of course, soldering to a Lithum button cell is not really a good idea since it's easy to damage the battery, (there is plastic and stuff inside the cell that can melt if you use too much heat) If you are experienced at soldering and can keep the heat on for less then a second or 2 you should be fine. for me this is not a big deal as I have a quality soldering station and know what I am doing and have done it many times, but I've seen batteries work fine for a few days after soldering and then just quit. so I started searching online for options.

Came across this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131896165070

20 2032 batteries WITH tabs for $11 shipped $:-\$ (for those who are new, these have the tabs already welded on so you solder to the tabs and NOT the battery, they are also a lot closer to what the original battery was

)

For 11 bucks I figured why not, I ordered, it, once i get the batteries I'll do some tests on them to see if they are fully charged (or dead crap) and then when I do my tires in a few weeks I'll let Y'all know how they work

jwh20 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2017, 04:43:56 pm »

Those should work although I like the configuration with both tabs coming out the same side but I'm sure these can be bent to the right configuration.

I'll just warn once more against soldering to these cells. At best you will just ruin the battery. At worst it will burst in your face and spew nasty stuff all over. It's NOT worth it.

connie_rider · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2017, 04:59:39 pm »

Yes, please do let us know if they are any good.

I have a 2014 Connie with the other TPMS.
Has anyone found a way to install batteries in those yet?
Yes, I know of the difficulties'. {just hoping}.....

Ride safe, Ted

jwh20 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2017, 05:18:28 pm »

Quote from: connie_rider on June 18, 2017, 04:59:39 pm

Yes, please do let us know if they are any good.

I have a 2014 Connie with the other TPMS.
Has anyone found a way to install batteries in those yet?
Yes, I know of the difficulties'. {just hoping}.....

Ride safe, Ted

Yes, it's been done on the new style TPMS modules. There is a thread on that "other" site by a member who cut his open, exposed the battery, and replaced it. Here is the thread, look at #6:

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22384.0

I think he reported that the module didn't work but he may have damaged it while "exploring" it. Now that the insides are visible, I think a careful dissection will be successful.

connie_rider · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2017, 05:56:50 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjrT7WBG6U8

I went to jwh20's discussion and grabbed this.
This is a YouTube video of a replacement on a Corvette.
Similar...

Tree did his replacement, but it didn't work this time. But he did make progress!

Ride safe, Ted

Rev Ryder · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2017, 06:49:12 pm »

If someone has an old dead sensor of this type they could send me, I'd be happy to develop a plan of attack and possibly a new conversion/replacement housing to make it easy in the future. I'm willing to give it a go anyway, but would need a dead player to experiment with.

Harry Martin · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2017, 07:16:29 pm »

Quote from: Rev Ryder on June 18, 2017, 06:49:12 pm

If someone has an old dead sensor of this type they could send me, I'd be happy to develop a plan of attack and possibly a new conversion/replacement housing to make it easy in the future. I'm willing to give it a go anyway, but would need a dead player to experiment with.

Waaaaaaay in the back...looks like Ted raising his hand?!

Nothing I'd like more than fixing Ted's wagon... er... I mean his TPMS.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2017, 08:03:43 pm »

Biggest bummer about buying tabbed batteries, or others in this format, online, is the quantity you have to buy, and the outrageous shipping charges as hazmat... I suggest searching your local people that do computer, phone, and other such micro tech, for someone to do micro spot welds on tabs, many places do this, you just have to look...
This place is a few miles from my home, a 15 minute liesurely ride, and they "build" battery packs, and are experts at tab welds... even garuntee their work...
http://www.bulldogbattery.com

I stopped in with a "dead donor" cell, and asked to see them weld tabs on, which they gladly did...

I'll say I could not even come close to the precision, and mroe importantly the procedure they use, with a soldering station at home... and I'm certified mil spec in solder and micro component replacement... I'm not even close to the perfection they can do in 15 seconds time, withou blowing the batt up.

I couldn't buy batteries online for cheaper than they would charge for 2 cells, tabbed, and even soldered into the circuit...if I so desired...

Mad River Marc · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2017, 08:13:54 pm »

I hear you on finding a place to do the tabs, but there isnt any place near me that I can find, lucky this package of 20 batteries was only 11 bucks shipped and I can test the cells to see how charged they are before I tear the tire down

connie_rider · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2017, 09:52:32 pm »

Harry, I did not raise my hand.

In fact; I don't even need to do my TPMS yet..
I have an extended warranty that should handle the problem if it comes up.

I, (unlike you) was being a "nice guy" and asking about the process, for the benefit of others..

Ride safe, Ted

Harry Martin · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2017, 10:26:16 pm »

Quote from: connie_rider on June 18, 2017, 09:52:32 pm

Harry, I did not raise my hand.

In fact; I don't even need to do my TPMS yet..
I have an extended warranty that should handle the problem if it comes up.

I, (unlike you) was being a "nice guy" and asking about the process, for the benefit of others..

Ride safe, Ted

EXCUUUUUUUZZZZE MEEEEEEEEEE!

You are right. You don't have a hand, you have a ...paw.
I fergets...you are not human. Sorry, don't mean to pick on you...

HA-HAaaa! Fooled you. I do mean to pick on you.

So is it true, an extended warranty will pay for new TPMS when the batteries crap out?
Will they pull the tire off and remount as part of the deal?

Sheesh...when are these corporations going to get on the "save-the-planet" bandwagon and stop filling waste dumps with non-repairable TPMS transponders with their potted in non-replaceable batteries?

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:00:31 am »

Harry.... snap, ...pop...snap....pop...crack....

Yes, they will cover removing the tires, and replacing the dead unit, and replacing and balancing the tires... and if you arensmart, and sly, and very polite....
Snap....crack...pop a pop a pop...... and tell them you have new tires sitting in the barn, they will put them on, and balance them... because they really don't care, they gotta pull the tire, and reinstall and balance again, no matter what...m just sayin'...

But I do love tonwatch you and Ted go at it like a couple Hens.... bawwwwwwkkkkk bwaaawwwwwk...

connie_rider · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2017, 03:53:58 pm »

Aww, we ain't fighting.
We're just funnin'..
After 14 years of working together on "OtP" it comes naturally..
I actually like the guy..
{don't tell anyone I sed that}..

Besides, It's fun to pick on Harry {b'cuz, it's so EZ to do}...

Ride safe, Ted

Mad River Marc · « **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2017, 04:49:06 pm »

Ok I decided to do some experimenting on batteries to see what the ACTUAL effects are on soldering wires to a 2032 battery, I've soldered to various button cells over the years during many of my electronics tinkering projects so I feel qualified to do this.

Equipment used:
Weller WESD51 Soldering station
Amtech flux
Radio Shack .062 diameter ROsin core solder (I'm out of my usual Kester)
Rubbing Alcohol
Basic Wire
Extech DVOM
2x Sony CR2032 Lithium cells
100Ohm Resister (to load the cell while testing)

Voltage checking method
Attach 1 end of the 100Ohm Resistor to an alligator clip and hook that to the test probes of the meter then test battery, this will provide a (roughly) 30 milliamp load to the battery while testing

First Battery - Double soldering technique (tin and then tack)
Starting Voltage 3.09v, Measured once a day for 3 days, 3.08-9 for all 3 days
Method :

Sand battery surfaces lightly to scuff
Apply Flux
Apply light amount of solder to battery keeping iron contact to UNDER 1 second
Immediately apply a paper towel soaked in alcohol to cool the battery
Wait till FULLY cool
Repeat on other Terminal

After this I tested the voltage again, 3.07v

Tin wires to be used
When totally cool, tack wire to positive terminal (Again total iron dwell time under 1 second)
Alcohol to cool
Wait for total cool
Repeat for Neg terminal

After doing this and allowing the battery to cool voltage tested at 3.27 again

10 minutes later, voltage read 3.09
10 Minutes later, 3.02
2 Days later 2.4 $:-\$
3 Days later holding at 2.4

As we can see the voltage was pretty stable PRIOR to soldering the leads, once I attached the leads it was lower and then dropped off sharply over the next 2 days....

Second battery (tin and attach at the same time)
Starting Voltage 3.07v, Measured once a day for 3 days, 3.06-7 for all 3 days

Method:
Sand battery surfaces lightly to scuff
Tin Wires
Apply Flux
Tack wire to battery keeping iron contact to UNDER 1 second
Immediately apply a paper towel soaked in alcohol to cool the battery
Wait till FULLY cool
Repeat on other Terminal

Voltage after cool 3.05
10 minutes later, voltage read 3.05 (Hmm, Promising )
10 Minutes later, 3.05 (Looking good!!!)
1 day later 3.01 (Lower, but still good)
2 days later, 2.7

Still holding at 2.8

So as we can see it held better, but then within 2 days had a sharp dropoff in voltage, however it seems to have stabilized after that... I can only assume that method 1 because it heated the battery twice caused more damage hence the lower voltage out of it

Now I am loading these things with (Approx) 30 millamps which I believe is more then the TPMS would use as I cannot find the data sheet on them, I also don't know the dropout voltage, but I imagine they would work on these batteries for a time...

However, given the voltages observed, I am forced to conclude (by my totally accurate and perfect science methods

) that even when we do the change this way and the TPMS works, it is on borrowed time

Once the batteries that have the tabs on them arrive I'll repeat this test but soldering to the tabs this time and see if it's better...

BDF · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2017, 05:50:12 pm »

We have been using welded- tab batteries like that for years at Tech. Day in Monson, MA Mark. Fold and clip the tabs (sorta' like a Rabbi does it), solder the lead from the bottom of the batter to the PC board lug, then use a piece of thin wire (I use wire- wrap wire, 30 gauge) to solder the other tab to the other PC lug.

I am sure Pat Maloy has plenty of photos on how we do this; it is fast, easy, utterly reliable and everything fits neatly back into the case. If you use the old 'removing the TPS sensors without removing the wheels or tires method, both senors can be R&R'd, with new batteries, in 55 minutes.... including a couple of short jokes thrown as a no- cost extra.

Brian

Quote from: Mad River Marc on June 18, 2017, 01:42:45 pm

So I need to change the batteries in my TPMS sensors and I was digging through my fridge for some 2032 battery to start soldering leads to. (As an electronics tinkerer I usually have a lot of oddball batteries )

That got me to thinking, while I know a lot of people do it as a matter of course, soldering to a Lithum button cell is not really a good idea since it's easy to damage the battery, (there is plastic and stuff inside the cell that can melt if you use too much heat) If you are experienced at soldering and can keep the heat on for less then a second or 2 you should be fine. for me this is not a big deal as I have a quality soldering station and know what I am doing and have done it many times, but I've seen batteries work fine for a few days after soldering and then just quit. so I started searching online for options.

Came across this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131896165070

20 2032 batteries WITH tabs for $11 shipped $:-\$ (for those who are new, these have the tabs already welded on so you solder to the tabs and NOT the battery, they are also a lot closer to what the original battery was )

For 11 bucks I figured why not, I ordered, it, once i get the batteries I'll do some tests on them to see if they are fully charged (or dead crap) and then when I do my tires in a few weeks I'll let Y'all know how they work

BDF · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2017, 05:58:09 pm »

That test will not show the two real problems in soldering directly to battery tabs.

Problem one is that batteries (cheap, consumer batteries) are sealed with nylon and long before the button is hot enough to flow solder, the nylon melted, flowed and ruined the seal on the battery. The battery may well work but it absolutely will leak electrolyte which will hurt the battery's life and is hard on the equipment the battery sleeps in (we have all seen that green and or white oxide powder all over the end of a battery that leaked in some gizmo).

The second problem is that lithium batteries contain lithium, a very unstable and reactive metal. Now it is not pure lithium in the battery but after heating it, you may be successful in separating some lithium (the element lithium from the chemical lithium compound) and getting it to explode. It is what the islanders call 'bad ju-ju'. It can be bad enough to seriously damage your face / head / hands. Not worth it. Just buy and use tabbed batteries if you are going to solder them.

BTW- you will not find any commercial mfg. who solders to battery terminals, and the above is the reason. Believe me, they would if they could . Spot welding the tabs on the battery ends actually puts far less heat (although much higher temperatures at the weld point) into the battery than soldering does so the seals never reach their melting point when tab welded.

Brian

Quote from: Mad River Marc on June 21, 2017, 04:49:06 pm

Ok I decided to do some experimenting on batteries to see what the ACTUAL effects are on soldering wires to a 2032 battery, I've soldered to various button cells over the years during many of my electronics tinkering projects so I feel qualified to do this.

Equipment used:
Weller WESD51 Soldering station
Amtech flux
Radio Shack .062 diameter ROsin core solder (I'm out of my usual Kester)
Rubbing Alcohol
Basic Wire
Extech DVOM
2x Sony CR2032 Lithium cells
100Ohm Resister (to load the cell while testing)

Voltage checking method
Attach 1 end of the 100Ohm Resistor to an alligator clip and hook that to the test probes of the meter then test battery, this will provide a (roughly) 30 milliamp load to the battery while testing

First Battery - Double soldering technique (tin and then tack)
Starting Voltage 3.09v, Measured once a day for 3 days, 3.08-9 for all 3 days
Method :

Sand battery surfaces lightly to scuff
Apply Flux
Apply light amount of solder to battery keeping iron contact to UNDER 1 second
Immediately apply a paper towel soaked in alcohol to cool the battery
Wait till FULLY cool
Repeat on other Terminal

After this I tested the voltage again, 3.07v

Tin wires to be used
When totally cool, tack wire to positive terminal (Again total iron dwell time under 1 second)
Alcohol to cool
Wait for total cool
Repeat for Neg terminal

After doing this and allowing the battery to cool voltage tested at 3.27 again

10 minutes later, voltage read 3.09
10 Minutes later, 3.02
2 Days later 2.4 $:-\$
3 Days later holding at 2.4

As we can see the voltage was pretty stable PRIOR to soldering the leads, once I attached the leads it was lower and then dropped off sharply over the next 2 days....

Second battery (tin and attach at the same time)
Starting Voltage 3.07v, Measured once a day for 3 days, 3.06-7 for all 3 days

Method:
Sand battery surfaces lightly to scuff
Tin Wires
Apply Flux
Tack wire to battery keeping iron contact to UNDER 1 second
Immediately apply a paper towel soaked in alcohol to cool the battery
Wait till FULLY cool
Repeat on other Terminal

Voltage after cool 3.05
10 minutes later, voltage read 3.05 (Hmm, Promising )
10 Minutes later, 3.05 (Looking good!!!)
1 day later 3.01 (Lower, but still good)
2 days later, 2.7
Still holding at 2.8

So as we can see it held better, but then within 2 days had a sharp dropoff in voltage, however it seems to have stabilized after that... I can only assume that method 1 because it heated the battery twice caused more damage hence the lower voltage out of it

Now I am loading these things with (Approx) 30 millamps which I believe is more then the TPMS would use as I cannot find the data sheet on them, I also don't know the dropout voltage, but I imagine they would work on these batteries for a time...

However, given the voltages observed, I am forced to conclude (by my totally accurate and perfect science methods ) that even when we do the change this way and the TPMS works, it is on borrowed time

Once the batteries that have the tabs on them arrive I'll repeat this test but soldering to the tabs this time and see if it's better...

jwh20 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2017, 06:07:28 pm »

This is CLASSIC!!

Quote

It is what the islanders call 'bad ju-ju'

smithr1 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2017, 07:25:16 pm »

I think places like batteries plus use a cold solder to make connections. I just don't know if that is something we can get and use.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2017, 07:45:59 pm »

Quote from: smithr1 on June 21, 2017, 07:25:16 pm

I think places like batteries plus use a cold solder to make connections. I just don't know if that is something we can get and use.

I'm sure they do the same as e place I mentioned, Bulldog Battery, and when its sitting in position, prior to doing the micro spot welds, they blast it with freon and freeze it, and blast it again after the weld.. they used that canned "cold spray" for checking transistors...

Kinda like this, but even more precise, with the cold spray addition..

http://youtu.be/iLQPeunfoa4

Mind you, these "A" series lithium batteries are the "jelly roll" internal format, where cathode and anode layers along with permeable seperator polymer sheets are rolled, and inserted into that "tube" casing, there is still some residual electrolyte and gas in there... the gas is really the explosive, not the lithium itself, which is bound up in a chemical salt, and cannot combust without the adddition of oxygen, and also some semblence of moisture (H2O)

The electrolyte is pretty volatile, because of the solvents in its composition... lithium hexaflourophosphate to be precise, with 2 additional volatile flammable liquids.. interesting stuff.... the equipment I designed for assembly and manufacture of layered "flat pack" bag style cells was a very interesting adventure, and the complete process was done in an inert atmosphere, basically a long "dry box" with gloved portals... containing a helium atmosphere... real sci fi stuff like in the Andromeda Strain movie...

The always present downfall of these batteries, even the button cells originaly discused here, is the hermetic seal, which is really not reliable, nor totally hermetic, and even tho lasts "a while" the polymers simply are not air tight forever.

BDF · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2017, 10:28:42 pm »

Batteries Plus, at least the two I have been to, use battery tab spot welders. 'We' can absolutely get and use a battery termincal spot welder but they are probably a bit too pricey for an individual (cheap ones are ~$100 and act like..... well, cheap ones).

I cannot say for certain but I do not think there is any cold soldering method.

Easiest thing to do is just buy batteries with tabs welded onto them, and that will so come with the insulator strip needed where the lower tab crosses the edge of the battery. They are so common, they are only a few pennies per battery more than batteries w/out tabs so the tabs are almost free.

Brian

Quote from: smithr1 on June 21, 2017, 07:25:16 pm

I think places like batteries plus use a cold solder to make connections. I just don't know if that is something we can get and use.

bobgroger · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2017, 11:55:34 pm »

I have not finished searching all the TPMS threads yet, but is a 315Mhz TPMS a 315Hhz TPMS, or are there differences in the authentication codes or protocol or something? You can buy a 315Mhz TPMS for $22 on eBAy, has anyone with KDS3 experimented with that?

Harry Martin · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2017, 12:27:45 am »

A better idea, we may see in our lifetime, is a TPMS battery that is built into the valve stem cap.
Then we would't have to resort to such foolish work arounds.

Imagine, replacing your battery just by changing the valve stem cap.
It is doable.

Another idea is to bring out wire leads and mount a battery holder to the tire rim.

Go ahead...laugh.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2017, 12:52:51 am »

Quote from: Harry Martin on June 22, 2017, 12:27:45 am

A better idea, we may see in our lifetime, is a TPMS battery that is built into the valve stem cap.
Then we would't have to resort to such foolish work arounds.

Imagine, replacing your battery just by changing the valve stem cap.
It is doable.

Another idea is to bring out wire leads and mount a battery holder to the tire rim.

Go ahead...laugh.

That was the laugh emoticon....

Yes Harry, welcome to the future past... valve stem cap monitors have been around for decades.
The issue with them is that is a valve stem cap... and, as such, in order to read the tire pressure/chznges in same, the cap is all that protects you from catastrphic rapid deflation... if the cap itself fails.... not a good solution.
The current tire monitoring system is as close to ideal as it can be, as it is inside the tire, and the valve stem core valve is intact, sealing the tires air in...

Only stupid part is the forced obsolesence/forced continued $$$ drain of funds, by its as is design, guranteeing you have to buy a sealed unit...
Simply put, kaw will always get your money, based on the design, when they could simply have designed it with a slot, and retaining clip, for easy battery replacement... kinda like the fob.... if they made you buy a fob, when that same battery died.... they wouldn't have sold many bikes...

I've biotched till I was blue in the face to kawasaki corporate about this very aspect... they just smile, and say have a great day... kinda like the response southern folk give when they say "well, god bless you... . " Which really means... GFY....

Harry Martin · « **Reply #23 on:** June 22, 2017, 01:28:44 am »

bowtie39 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2017, 03:18:30 am »

Cyclops