Author Topic: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse? (actually Front Bevel)  (Read 1226 times)

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Offline agosey

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I don't post much as I just keep trying to learn as much as I can and I keep my mouth shut until I think I have something new and useful to say. I’ve tried searching for clutch whine, decel whine, and other whines but hadn’t found anything to really fit. Hopefully the COGdom can help me work through this.

Basic bike info is 2008 C14, with approximately 54k miles on it now. No engine mods at the time. Regular maintenance and adjustments. Valves checked mid summer of 2018 at about 49k miles. Rotella T6 and no leaks or other issues.

My question is regarding a whine that I would say is coming from the left side of the bike (best as I can tell while riding). It actually started at the very end of last year coming back to Colorado from western Utah, but I ran out of riding season to narrow it down. It started in the middle of a riding day and started abruptly. I'd say this has been going on for not quite 1000 miles. This Whine happens only on deceleration. It happens in every gear. It seems to correspond with the RPMs, i.e high RPM when you start to decel means high whine, low RPMs means low whine. It reduces as RPM drops. It only happens when you go to basically 0 to 5% throttle. If you are moving and you roll off to say 10% and match engine to tranny then no whine, but full off and it's there. If I pull in the Clutch then it is greatly diminished, but still there. If I shift into neutral and keep rolling, then no whine. It sounds kinda like a gorilla sized version of primary gear whine. I have also noticed some increased vibration felt in foot pegs and handle bars.

To me it has to be in the clutch/tranny, but I don't know where. I was wondering if it could be something in the slipper set up, but I really don't know much about them as this is the only bike I've had that has one. I do not have any perceptible clutch slippage or chatter, so I was leaning away from a simple plate/carrier issue. I don't have any issues with shifting or gears, either up or down, so I was leaning away from tranny. I'm not ruling it out, i just can't come up with a cause that fits with the all the details. Which is when I thought about the slipper as it kinda fits.

Thanks for the time. Let me know your thoughts on the whine if you have any ideas or experience with that.

Thanks in advance your your thoughts, consideration help and experience.

(I edited the heading to include what the actual problem was on 5/20/2019 so that if anyone else end up with this issue they can hopefully find it more easily)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 07:27:31 pm by agosey, Reason: After Forum help determined to Be Front Bevel output bearing. »
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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2019, 01:34:08 am »
Oil change change to whine?
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 Traveler. It was a Blast Baby. Still in it to Win it.

Offline RS

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2019, 11:19:11 am »
I would think to be looking at the final drive shaft, u joints, possibly, but those tend to be more of a groan.
Just something to investigate.

Offline TimR

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2019, 05:58:43 am »
Does the bike make any noise when moving around in the garage? I don't mean squeaks from tires or brakes but mechanical noise. Clicking.


I have an 09 with similar mileage. Kawasaki cut transmission gears make a whine that can be heard. Not obnoxious but there. probably won't hear transmission whine at high way speeds for the most [art. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:09:41 am by TimR »
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Offline JerBear

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2019, 11:11:46 am »
Here is an excellent video that explains slipper clutch function from one of our industry members SISF..  IDK if that could be your issue but give it a watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVKQVembC7A
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2019, 12:15:16 pm »
 This doesn't sound to me like a slipper clutch issue. They don't whine, more like a chatter or bump that can be felt in the clutch pull lever.

 Since it's on the left side of the bike, and based on my experience with building bevel drives, my suspicion would be directed at gear mesh / bearing preload, etc.

  I have also read of several transmission shaft bearing failures that could result in a whine, but I'm still more leaning towards a gear mesh / bearing issue. Steve
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Offline agosey

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2019, 03:52:09 pm »
Thaks all for reading and replying.

OMOAC: oil change made no difference,  and im a beer guy...

RS: not ruling out final drive, shaft or u joints but it sounds much further forward than that. I will still be looking into it though.

TimR: there is a little of that "clicking" gear mesh noise as I roll it around, but it has never been heard while riding. This new noise is much more prevalent than that.

JerBear: Thanks for the video. Shoulda known that Shoodaben would have a video like that. I think you might be asking if I'm having the bumps transmitted to the clutch lever like Steve describes. I am not. Clutch lever feels fine and normal. It would make perfect sense to get that if a piece of star spring had broke off, but this whine is very audible when you come off to 0% throttle and does impart vibes in the footpegs.

SISF: after I posted asking if it could be slipper related and kept thinking about it I came to the same conclusion. A bit of grasping at straws given the apparent location and disappearance when you pull the clutch in.

So iguess that brings us to the bevel drive gear mesh and bearing preload.
What would cause it to present this symptom so suddenly? It was just there after a short warming stop at a gas station last fall. Nothing in a week of riding prior, then last day and a half it was. Came on like a switch, not creeping up slowly.

What else can be done to diagnose this and finally whats the fix?

Thanks again guys. Keep the comments and ideas coming.
Steve, thanks for the call on the ECU flash and good luck with the move.

Take care.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2019, 06:46:20 pm »
Quote
If I pull in the Clutch then it is greatly diminished, but still there.
Quote
SISF: after I posted asking if it could be slipper related and kept thinking about it I came to the same conclusion. A bit of grasping at straws given the apparent location and disappearance when you pull the clutch in.
  In your original post, you said when the clutch is pulled in it's greatly diminished but still there.  In the response to Steve you said it disappears when you pull in the clutch.  Given the fact that Steve's experience with bevel drives is vastly superior to the rest of us, I would tend to listen to Steve on this.  Do as you wish, but Steve messes with this stuff every day.  Nudge nudge. :)
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2019, 08:09:47 pm »
. If you are moving and you roll off to say 10% and match engine to tranny then no whine, but full off and it's there. If I pull in the Clutch then it is greatly diminished, but still there. If I shift into neutral and keep rolling, then no whine. It sounds kinda like a gorilla sized version of primary gear whine. I have also noticed some increased vibration felt in foot pegs and handle bars.

Thanks in advance your your thoughts, consideration help and experience.

I tend to agree with SISF, bevel gear housing, but I wouldn't know if I can't "hear it myself"; or feel it first hand... That said, I wouldn't be really worried myself....

I will ask, have you ever removed the drive shaft, and lubed the end spline, and inspected them?
Personally, I would go right to that step, seeing as it's 'free', and do a lube and inspect.

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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2019, 08:20:50 pm »
Just for S&G's. Are the brakes applied during decel? I changed my front discs and pads and got a real electric whine when applied. No damage or decrease in perf but a change in tone. Diff oil change change make a difference?
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 Traveler. It was a Blast Baby. Still in it to Win it.

Offline TimR

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2019, 12:28:19 am »
I should have given a better explanation of the noise when pushing the bike around. Not a gear mesh per say but rougher. I think there was a run of bad bearings on the shaft just prior to the bevel gear. (outside) My 09 makes no noise when moving around the garage other than that from tires and brakes if applied.


I swore I could feel the mentioned bearing going bad. A friend brought me to his shop and we pulled the bevel gear cover.  Every thing looked good. He even jacked up the back and started the bike in gear with the bevel gear cover off. After throwing a lung out yelling  TURN IT OFF he did. I witnessed just how good of oil flow these things have for the bearings. I'm am surprised I didn't get to wear some of that oil.

The cover is the black one in the middle of the bevel gear housing. This cover is made of rubber. While mine didn't leak when placed back in, I would have preferred to have a spare cover on hand.


A northern fiend of mine had a 08. He came down and we road together. I could hear what sounded like a rear final drive gear going bad. But it turns out it was that out put shaft bearing to the bevel gear The bike was sold before he figured it out. And it's too bad cause he and his wife were great Coggers. 


Turns out I believe it's the front tire making me think I can hear and feel the bevel gear as I run down the road. I guess my next question can you vary the noise as you add or subtract power?



The out put shaft to the bevel gear has two bearings. The friend who checked my 09 had a bearing failure on the out side bearing. He said that one is not too hard to change. His tool out the inside bearing as well. He said the inside bearing was difficult without special tools.


Steve and MOB would know better than I would on this matter. Good luck. Tim

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Offline agosey

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2019, 10:08:00 pm »
In your original post, you said when the clutch is pulled in it's greatly diminished but still there.  In the response to Steve you said it disappears when you pull in the clutch.  Given the fact that Steve's experience with bevel drives is vastly superior to the rest of us, I would tend to listen to Steve on this.  Do as you wish, but Steve messes with this stuff every day.  Nudge nudge. :)

Bud- sorry for the confusion, in my reply i was just trying to give a brief re-cap since the tablet I was typing on that day is crappy...
Believe me, I am listening to SISF Which is why I ended my first reply with "So iguess that brings us to the bevel drive gear mesh and bearing preload.
What would cause it to present this symptom so suddenly?... What else can be done to diagnose this and finally whats the fix?"

I genuinely want to know the why of something like this just for my own edification as well as the nuts and bolts of how to fix it.

I will ask, have you ever removed the drive shaft, and lubed the end spline, and inspected them?
Personally, I would go right to that step, seeing as it's 'free', and do a lube and inspect.

MOB- I have not ever removed the drive shaft. But I like your tact of going for the free. Since I didn't have an idea of what else I was probably missing (i was thinking clutch maybe? you guys are thinking driveshaft and bevel gear) I hadn't started disassembling since i didn't know where to start looking. Plus I just got out of my 5 month hibernation so didn't want to disable the bike. At least know I have a good direction that isn't me just pulling stuff out of my a**.

Just for S&G's. Are the brakes applied during decel? I changed my front discs and pads and got a real electric whine when applied. No damage or decrease in perf but a change in tone. Diff oil change change make a difference?

OMoaC - To parrot Steve McQueen on the brakes, "I don't know, I never touched 'em"  ;D
This is sans brakes. Straight engine braking. Diff Fluid looks good and was changes 2 springs ago now. The diff is tight and has no leaks or seeps. Could do a dump and fill, but I've been trying to lean my head down to be able to hear the source better. It is farther forward than the rear diff. I have been known to be a belt and suspenders kinda guy from time to time so I'll sacrifice a bit more full syn fluids on the alter or the moto gods to get Daisy back to herself.

I should have given a better explanation of the noise when pushing the bike around. Not a gear mesh per say but rougher. I think there was a run of bad bearings on the shaft just prior to the bevel gear. (outside) My 09 makes no noise when moving around the garage other than that from tires and brakes if applied.

... I guess my next question can you vary the noise as you add or subtract power?

The out put shaft to the bevel gear has two bearings. The friend who checked my 09 had a bearing failure on the out side bearing. He said that one is not too hard to change. His tool out the inside bearing as well. He said the inside bearing was difficult without special tools.

Steve and MOB would know better than I would on this matter. Good luck. Tim

TimR - I think I understand where you are coming from. When just rolling the bike around in neutral, you get no appreciable noise. little from the brakes dragging slightly (not being applied) and then some from the drive train. But if you wern't listening for it, you probably wouldn't notice.
As you add power there is no noise. If you were already decelerating with between 0 and 5% (guesstimate) throttle then you would have the noise but as soon as you apply even a little bit of throttle, the noise goes away. I'm getting pretty good at feathering the throttle to ride that little sweet spot.
I haven't gotten a chance to pull up a parts fiche to look at the assembly to know what I'll need yet. Be my luck it's the inner bearing no matter what, just cuz it's harder.

Thanks again to all of you for the help in getting this narrowed down. Please keep pondering in your favorite method and hopefully I'll have time to check in on thoughts more than once a week.
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Offline TimR

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2019, 05:28:14 am »
From what I understand you would hear it over the brake sounds while you rolled t.  If are hearing just the disks rolling through the calipers you are good.


My guess is your hearing the transmission. If you think a C14 has a loud whine, you should ride a Z1 once.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 05:32:52 am by TimR »
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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2019, 07:31:50 pm »



My guess is your hearing the transmission. If you think a C14 has a loud whine, you should ride a Z1 once.


 :)) :)) :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :nananana: :rotflmao:

that's the chain Tim... :rotflmao: and why we all put 4 into one loud headers on our Z bikes...... ;) :motonoises: :motonoises: :motonoises: :great:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 07:38:53 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline BigK

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2019, 12:14:32 pm »
Just an out of the box thought. And cost nothing and a little time to check. Wheel bearings going bad?
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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2019, 02:23:58 am »
No MOB it is not the chain. The chain makes a different sound. It is the straight cut gears in the tranny and nothing more.  A chain would be constant, not increase or decrease as gears were changed. The Z1's gear whine is loudest in 4th with conservative RPM. Won't hear the whine at WOT.  All you hear then is air going through the carbs and exhaust note with the 4 into 4 system.   


The Z1 and the C14 has the same gear noise.  It could not be the chain then.
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2019, 06:58:22 am »
You have a 2008 same as mine. At 18k I lubed my drive shaft splines which were completely dry from the factory. I am not the only 2008 like that
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2019, 05:31:16 pm »
No MOB it is not the chain. The chain makes a different sound. It is the straight cut gears in the tranny and nothing more.  A chain would be constant, not increase or decrease as gears were changed. The Z1's gear whine is loudest in 4th with conservative RPM. Won't hear the whine at WOT.  All you hear then is air going through the carbs and exhaust note with the 4 into 4 system.   


The Z1 and the C14 has the same gear noise.  It could not be the chain then.

 :)) :)) :nananana: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :great: :great:

you missed my joke... but rest assured, I'm quite familiar with Z1 trannies.. I may have owned my 3 years less than yours, but then it's newer... but I bet I've pulled that tranny aaprt more times than you have...and not by choice or for the "fun of it". >:( >:( :'( >:D ;) ;) :-X :truce:.... Only because mine got it's miles put on, when I was in my 20's, and they added up 1/4 mile at a time..   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: (I have a big box of KZ parts, sacraficed to the "god's of The 1/4 Mile", Kinda like Burt Munroe had...but mine were mostly tranny parts.. and clutches...)
Even as it sits today, I don't think the ODO rolled over 20k yet...(haven't looked lately, It's kinda buried in my garage).. :truce: :rotflmao: :beerchug:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 05:38:02 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline agosey

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2019, 10:47:08 pm »
And my hopes to check in more than once a week have failed miserably...

From what I understand you would hear it over the brake sounds while you rolled t.  If are hearing just the disks rolling through the calipers you are good.

My guess is your hearing the transmission. If you think a C14 has a loud whine, you should ride a Z1 once.

TimR - it's tough to tell if we're on the same page or not as to what were both hearing when the bike isn't running and just rolling. If my noise on decel is tranny, then I'm worried as I can't do much with that.

Just an out of the box thought. And cost nothing and a little time to check. Wheel bearings going bad?

BigK -  I checked the wheel bearings and it's not them. Though I will probably do them in the not to distant future just as preventative maintenance. Maybe a winter thing.


If I can get a little guidance on on getting into the bevel drive and where my target parts are. Please look at the attached exploded parts view of the bevel assembly.
1) does the black plastic cap #11065 spin off or pry off? Any Special or recommended tools for this where I'm less likely to get frustrated and impatient and butcher the thing?
2) Which of the bearings are people referring to as the inner and the outer? I'm just trying to get a picture in my head of where parts are so I know how far in I need to go and what I should expect to find.


If the image goes away it's the parts fiche from bike bandit.

Also, whats your thoughts on picking up a complete unit from the Bay of E? I saw a full unit for between 67 & 99 that doesn't appear to have much wear on the gear teeth faces. Pricing for two bearings get's you to 55 so was just thinking that might be a viable fix if I get in there and see wear on the bevel.

Thanks.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2019, 11:19:00 pm »
I can't say buying an ebay output housing, is wise yet, (you will also need a new gasket, that runs $25) when you have not done prior disassembly and inspection.. tossing $$$ without knowing what is really wrong, is just painful, especially if it's something simple, that can be "found"...
again, I suggest doing the "free" thing, pull the drive shaft, inspect and lubricate the splined end couplings..both ends;  just grease, and time... and see if this helps... sounds travel thru hard metal parts, especially when there is an absence of grease..

do the free thing first. don't spend money, till you know the issue.

see the picture.

Oh, and don't sweat that black plastic cap, it does nothing to help, if you pull the complete unit off, it's a single assembly, you can spin the shaft to see if there is a bunch of backlash.. you don't remove that nut behind the plastic cover... unless you intend to completely disassemble the "guts". And that's done with the unit, removed from the engine. So, don't pop the cap, and mess with that nut...I send cautionary notation, as you cannot "service" the bike, based on parts diagrams, and microfiche picture.. you need a FSM.  pay close regard to section 11; it fully explains all steps in driveshaft, inspection/correction, and also the output housing..
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 12:12:59 am by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline strum

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2019, 12:10:38 am »
  Here's a video that may help you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIL_9iEvvIE
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2019, 12:20:30 am »
  Here's a video that may help you out.


 :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:

you got it..
now, he still should get a hold of the FSM, so he can tighten every fastener, to the correct associated torque...

nice find tho, very appropriate.

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Offline agosey

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2019, 01:08:27 am »
Strum & M.O.B. thanks for the video and reminding me that I needed the FSM. Both were very helpful.
Given that the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry... I finally got a chance to get her taken apart and inspect all the various parts.

I'll try and get the photos up, plus a video showing the play/noise in the out put bevel. Despite reading the attachment/sharing thread it's not working well for me  ::)

Video
https://youtu.be/80OnzAzrSCQ

Output bevel removed, note wear on concave and convex faces


Bevel drive inside showing wear


When I rotate the spline on the output bevel after removing it, there is a definite notchy feel. The bearing is not smooth. I don't know which bearing yet. I will be ordering both plus whatever other non reusable parts as called out in the FSM.

I guess my only question now is, do you guys see too much wear on the bevels that would dictate the replacement of the pair? She's down until I can figure out how to proceed.

Thanks again for the help.
2008 ZG1400B, 2005 Ural Patrol, 1976 GL1000
Gone but not forgotten, 2006 DL1000k6, 2007 VN900b

Offline Freddy

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2019, 01:55:51 am »
  Here's a video that may help you out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIL_9iEvvIE


A pity that young fella didn't read the FSM.  Only the top left link bolt needs to be removed to drop the final drive down to allow shaft removal after the front locking pin is depressed.   





I'd simply replace the unit with one from ebay now - bevel drive that is.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:06:28 am by Freddy »
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline agosey

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Re: Unknown Whine on decel, maybe clutch/tranny? Maybe worse?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2019, 03:36:45 pm »
I'd simply replace the unit with one from ebay now - bevel drive that is.

Is that the consensus of those whom know more than I? Given than if these bevels are too far gone I'll need the matched set, new bearings all around, shims, replacement output spline nut (to dimple) and the set up to disassemble then re assemble plus setting up the preload and backlash... :-\  I'm comfortable replacing the drive as an assembly, not so much in the drive tear down and propper rebuild department. I began thinking about  total replacement about a week ago and have been searching the Great Garage Sale in the Ether. Are all the yaers of bevel drives interchangeable? I found one from a 2013 that I am awaiting answers to a few questions on, for less than 100. There are some 2008's out there, but I feel that would just be rolling the dice on whether that unit also had been affected by the "bad batch of bearings".

Kinda a shame of the waste, but if that is the way to go and what I get works then the up side is I'll have a mostly good drive assembly to donate to someone else to appease the moto gods for the help ya'll have given.

Let me know what the compatibility of the years are or any other feasible options. Really all I'm waiting for before I pull the trigger on the replacement assembly.

Thanks again.
2008 ZG1400B, 2005 Ural Patrol, 1976 GL1000
Gone but not forgotten, 2006 DL1000k6, 2007 VN900b