Author Topic: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth  (Read 1912 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2017, 12:11:25 pm »
 And the reality of all this is that if 87 is sufficient, it would probably make the bike even quicker, and have better throttle response than it has even with 89.  I have run a couple tanks of 93, and can absolutely say that the engine response is softer with premium.  I'm also sure that 87 is going to burn more completely and won't leave the soot that comes with premium. As long as it doesn't allow gas knock, it would be a great choice... but I cannot say it can control detonation, so I err on the side of caution. Steve
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2017, 12:33:22 pm »

 why would I try to say it was the fault of the flash?  It's done nothing but improve the ride. After al this just looks like I'm still using 87
Thanks


   Ken, my response of "do not..."   wasn't directed to you personally as much as a general warning to all folks running the flash.

   You'll have to look at it through my eyes for a moment. there is already a large segment of owners who see any hotrodding as questionable, and messing with the 'black box" as a fools folly.  I have to counter this by making the changes safe - safe - safe - even to the point of giving up some gains if it means getting up against potential engine damage.

   I want folks to enjoy their bikes and be confident that my flashes aren't harmful in any way. That said, you can bet that if somebody does damage an engine for whatever reason  There will be naysayers coming out of the woodwork, pointing at the flash as the cause.

   Remember that not everyone rides like you... there'a a lot of folks who will leave the bike in 6th and give WOT at 1500 rpm just because they can... they have no idea how bad that is for an engine. I have to consider all these worst case scenarios and advise accordingly.   If that means advising premium octane fuel... so be it, it beats engine damage every day.

     Steve
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 12:48:45 pm by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline Sport Rider

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2017, 02:04:38 pm »
I use Mobile 1 synthetic.  should I run premium too?  Maybe I should use the V-twin synthetic instead of the I-4 version?

</sarcasm>

y'all need to get out and ride more.

BTW...if you use corn-free gas around here, you get premium by default.  I can't find any in 87 octane.
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Offline Sailor_chic

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2017, 02:07:49 pm »
I use Mobile 1 synthetic.  should I run premium too?  Maybe I should use the V-twin synthetic instead of the I-4 version?

</sarcasm>

y'all need to get out and ride more.

BTW...if you use corn-free gas around here, you get premium by default.  I can't find any in 87 octane.

Only when you run Bridgestone tires
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Offline Fais

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2017, 02:54:32 pm »
I use Mobile 1 synthetic.  should I run premium too?  Maybe I should use the V-twin synthetic instead of the I-4 version?

</sarcasm>

y'all need to get out and ride more.

BTW...if you use corn-free gas around here, you get premium by default.  I can't find any in 87 octane.

In TN I buy 89 when it's all corny. Some carry 87 for the boaters and lawn folks. Some carry 91 it for the exotic cars and etc. Concour owners manual is clear that our motor can run fine on it - but what about the tank and lines and  :-[ I remember when corn was for eating but when Thailand sent back that first barge of (FREE) GMO corn the deal was sealed. Less than five nations allow GMO food - the rest have organic only because that's normal! Here it's a fancy word for 'no poison'! Soon we will be fueling with wheat and potatoes because those are hardly edible anymore either. Sickest country on earth? You guessed it. If only our insides were as pretty as OMC's plugs . . . .


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Offline BerndV

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2017, 03:22:30 pm »
And the reality of all this is that if 87 is sufficient, it would probably make the bike even quicker, and have better throttle response than it has even with 89.  I have run a couple tanks of 93, and can absolutely say that the engine response is softer with premium.  I'm also sure that 87 is going to burn more completely and won't leave the soot that comes with premium. As long as it doesn't allow gas knock, it would be a great choice... but I cannot say it can control detonation, so I err on the side of caution. Steve

Steve makes an excellent point here that many people do not understand.  A piston IC engine will run most efficiently and will produce the most power on the lowest octane gasoline that ensures that preignition or detonation will not occur.  For those individuals that do not consistently run their bikes WOT to redline as I do on all my vehicles, 89 octane is probably sufficient.  If you are operating at higher elevations then it is also safe and perhaps even optimal to use a lower octane fuel.  Regarding my opinion that it is "stupidity" to run 87 octane in these bikes, the implication was not that individuals that do so are stupid.  Intelligent people frequently do stupid things and engage in foolish or risky behavior, myself included.  However, it is my opinion that second guessing the highly educated engineers that design these machines without any supporting data is inviting easily avoidable problems.  Also, it is simply untrue that the lubrication and fuel requirement recommendations originate with corporate attorneys in an attempt to prevent litigation.  These recommendations are based upon extensive testing under a variety of environmental and use conditions that the average user may or may not ever experience.  If testing data indicates that at an ambient temperature of 120 degrees fahrenheit at sea level under repeated WOT runs to redline that detonation can and does occur with 89 octane pump fuel, then the engineers will recommend a minimum octane of 90 be used.  This defaults to 91 here in the western states and 93 in the much of the rest of the country.  If you live in an area or travel through an area where premium is 93 octane and ambient temperatures are not unusually high or you are well above sea level, then 89 octane is probably optimum.  However, I cannot ever see risking 87 octane for anything other than low to mid throttle cruising along a highway or interstate.  Having been to more than a few rallies by now, I also now have empirical evidence that most C14 owners really don't ride very aggressively.  If that describes your riding style, then 87 will probably never cause any problems.  Personally, having spent the last 35 years as an amateur road racer, to paraphrase a famous song, "I can't drive 85".   
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2017, 05:57:24 pm »
I think the point that is being missed is the misnomer that low speed cruising is ok with low octain fuel, which is exactly the opposite of longevity of a bike doing this..
I have seen over the years, a large number of people that think because this bike has 6 gears, they need to be using the upper ones... and when I see people lugging a bike like this at 40 mph in sixth gear, I just shake my head... there is nothing worse for the bike than to force it to struggle in a too tall gear, while using low level fuels... those are the people Steve and i both think NEED the higher octain, because the engine needs it at those combinations of speed and (improper) gear selection...I run 89 minimum all the time, and switch back and forth with higher grades depending on what and where I'm going... if you are going to run 87/89 you really better rorget about 6th gear below 70 mph... I don't have a "flash", but then when I'm running 87/89 octain, on secondary roads, my engine seldom sees less than 4000 rpm, and that means I'm running without ever getting into fifth gear, let alone sixth... :-X :rotflmao:

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Offline BerndV

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2017, 06:11:07 pm »
Another good point.  Combining low rpm's with higher gears, large throttle inputs, and low octane fuel is a recipe for problems.  Furthermore, individuals that think they are doing their engines a favor by keeping the rpm's low and generally being gentle with the throttle are simply misinformed. 
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Offline Bob H

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2017, 06:12:51 pm »
Boy did this thread ever take a hard 90 deg. turn from OMC's original post!

Oil, fuel, tires, politics............what have I missed?

As someone said earlier:
y'all need to get out and ride more.
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Offline seagiant1

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2017, 06:20:50 pm »
Hi,
       Interesting thread!

I run the highest octane I can, because Kawi said to!

I run in the lower gears in and around town for self preservation!

I like having the bike react to the throttle quicker, without having to "drop" a gear!

Didn't know I was doing everything right.....

Just seemed the thing to do??? ;D
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Offline Vic

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2017, 02:38:28 am »
Two words: false economy.

Why chance it when engineered testing demonstrates the possibility of damage based on empirical evidence? And this advice is being offered by individuals whose careers and experience dwell within these specific areas. This is less about litigation and more about hard science.

Nevertheless, to each his own.

Offline Fais

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2017, 05:52:02 am »
I'm not taking any chances. There's not enough time or room to type what I know ya arrogant buncha ....


TN Region SCCA Competitin Director at age 22 after beating the pants off arrogant pricks like - ahem. Can't count the trophies. Fastest import drag cars from Houston to Chicago and one of the first front wheel drive cars to run a sanctioned drag war at under 10 seconds. Been wrenching since my first job at age 12 and never even had so much as one damn socket given to me. Built cars under tutelage from Saleen and a drag race shop in Houston until I got my license. Have built and sold over 100 project cars - most of them beyond what you would believe is possible. 1000+ hp Supras and Mercedes. 450hp N/A M3 track cars raced in Le Mans. Had a methanol Supra tour the country in the 90s before Fast n Furious. Test driver and precision driving coach for AMG for 5.5 years until I couldn't take another minute in LA. Even making $900/day in the 90s driving in commercais and coaching for movies like Italian Job weren't worth it. AMG, Volvo and Mazda fought over me for a few years and padded my pockets until I couldn't stand the pricks always around me.

Worry more about your wives satisfaction in bed than my gas tank.  I never wanted to mention all that but i still have shops capable of building any darn thing you want. Have since I was 19 when i was first published in My Business Magazine. Some entrepreneur spotlight thing. Have built and maintained cars for Sony, Capital Records and about every celebrity in Nashville, TN. Stop by my place sometime and we can go through pics or magazine articles or trophies until you hate me even more.

Since becoming addicted to motorcycles I have opened bars, cafes, restaurants and another fortune was made. Moved to S.America, lived directly on the Pacific in Peru and opened a motorcycle tour shop and cafe. When the fun wore off I gave tbe shop to a church. Gave after I paid them to build it.

I had better stop I feel dirty right now waxing on like this. Ya still ain't heard s*** about me  :nananana:

Don't friggin worry about my gas tank anymore gentleman. Sorry OMC I loved your report.





 



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Offline seagiant1

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2017, 09:40:35 am »
I'm not taking any chances. There's not enough time or room to type what I know ya arrogant buncha ....


TN Region SCCA Competitin Director at age 22 after beating the pants off arrogant pricks like - ahem. Can't count the trophies. Fastest import drag cars from Houston to Chicago and one of the first front wheel drive cars to run a sanctioned drag war at under 10 seconds. Been wrenching since my first job at age 12 and never even had so much as one damn socket given to me. Built cars under tutelage from Saleen and a drag race shop in Houston until I got my license. Have built and sold over 100 project cars - most of them beyond what you would believe is possible. 1000+ hp Supras and Mercedes. 450hp N/A M3 track cars raced in Le Mans. Had a methanol Supra tour the country in the 90s before Fast n Furious. Test driver and precision driving coach for AMG for 5.5 years until I couldn't take another minute in LA. Even making $900/day in the 90s driving in commercais and coaching for movies like Italian Job weren't worth it. AMG, Volvo and Mazda fought over me for a few years and padded my pockets until I couldn't stand the pricks always around me.

Worry more about your wives satisfaction in bed than my gas tank.  I never wanted to mention all that but i still have shops capable of building any darn thing you want. Have since I was 19 when i was first published in My Business Magazine. Some entrepreneur spotlight thing. Have built and maintained cars for Sony, Capital Records and about every celebrity in Nashville, TN. Stop by my place sometime and we can go through pics or magazine articles or trophies until you hate me even more.

Since becoming addicted to motorcycles I have opened bars, cafes, restaurants and another fortune was made. Moved to S.America, lived directly on the Pacific in Peru and opened a motorcycle tour shop and cafe. When the fun wore off I gave tbe shop to a church. Gave after I paid them to build it.

I had better stop I feel dirty right now waxing on like this. Ya still ain't heard s*** about me  :nananana:

Don't friggin worry about my gas tank anymore gentleman. Sorry OMC I loved your report.

Hi,
          LOL!!!! :nananana:

I don't worry about that Fais! ;D

I thought ahead and married a Puert Rican! :-X

Those girls, "light off" fast, and "burn" for a long time!!! :great: >:D >:D >:D
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Offline EZ

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2017, 10:15:55 am »
I'm not taking any chances. There's not enough time or room to type what I know ya arrogant buncha ....


TN Region SCCA Competitin Director at age 22 after beating the pants off arrogant pricks like - ahem. Can't count the trophies. Fastest import drag cars from Houston to Chicago and one of the first front wheel drive cars to run a sanctioned drag war at under 10 seconds. Been wrenching since my first job at age 12 and never even had so much as one damn socket given to me. Built cars under tutelage from Saleen and a drag race shop in Houston until I got my license. Have built and sold over 100 project cars - most of them beyond what you would believe is possible. 1000+ hp Supras and Mercedes. 450hp N/A M3 track cars raced in Le Mans. Had a methanol Supra tour the country in the 90s before Fast n Furious. Test driver and precision driving coach for AMG for 5.5 years until I couldn't take another minute in LA. Even making $900/day in the 90s driving in commercais and coaching for movies like Italian Job weren't worth it. AMG, Volvo and Mazda fought over me for a few years and padded my pockets until I couldn't stand the pricks always around me.


Worry more about your wives satisfaction in bed than my gas tank.  I never wanted to mention all that but i still have shops capable of building any darn thing you want. Have since I was 19 when i was first published in My Business Magazine. Some entrepreneur spotlight thing. Have built and maintained cars for Sony, Capital Records and about every celebrity in Nashville, TN. Stop by my place sometime and we can go through pics or magazine articles or trophies until you hate me even more.

Since becoming addicted to motorcycles I have opened bars, cafes, restaurants and another fortune was made. Moved to S.America, lived directly on the Pacific in Peru and opened a motorcycle tour shop and cafe. When the fun wore off I gave tbe shop to a church. Gave after I paid them to build it.

I had better stop I feel dirty right now waxing on like this. Ya still ain't heard s*** about me  :nananana:

Don't friggin worry about my gas tank anymore gentleman. Sorry OMC I loved your report.


^^ :beerchug: :beerchug:^^

Thanks for the report OMC. Had no doubts about Steves flash but good to know / share...
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Offline Gitbox

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2017, 02:17:51 pm »
This thread prompts two questions:

Is the detonation audible on the C14?

Is that bio real Fais? If so, wow!
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2017, 02:29:00 pm »


Is the detonation audible on the C14?



  Yes - I pushed into it early on in the tuning process to know where it was. It's not a knock like in a car, not the "rocks in a can" sound... it's a very light rattle, almost imperceptible - I had to push high throttle / higher gears / low rpm to get into it. then I would back out of the throttle to get it to stop and be sure it was gas knock I was hearing. I then went and pulled the tuning parameters back so it wouldn't do it.  since then I've come to rely heavily on datalogging and reading the a/f ratios looking for spikes that would indicate detonation.  Steve
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Offline Fais

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2017, 02:59:37 pm »
This thread prompts two questions:

Is the detonation audible on the C14?

Is that bio real Fais? If so, wow!

Yes sir, thank you. I've had a Forrest Gump existence. No education unless you count the school of hard knox. Even took night classes.

Steve - that's literally awesome of you to risk your motor for all of ours. Will you ever tell us what this motor can do at the edge?! It's a pretty amazing N/A powerplant  :motonoises:
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2017, 08:09:13 pm »
In the end, I do want to thank OMC for his observations,

And also give kudos to Fais, for not holding back, and telling us how he really feels.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Ya had us all at the point of the "arrogant prikz" comment... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I'm not taking any chances. There's not enough time or room to type what I know ya arrogant buncha ....


TN Region SCCA Competitin Director at age 22 after beating the pants off arrogant pricks like - ahem....
until I couldn't stand the pricks always around me.

Worry more about your wives satisfaction in bed than my gas tank.  I never wanted to mention all that but..........

I had better stop I feel dirty right now waxing on like this. Ya still ain't heard s*** about me  :nananana:

Don't friggin worry about my gas tank anymore gentleman. Sorry OMC I loved your report.



Winner winnwer, chicken dinner.... you win... :great: :great: :beerchug:





Now let's all get along, and sing a nice song, and we will all feel better.....
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:51:12 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Fais

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2017, 08:49:45 pm »
Ahhhh - a proud moment ....... it isn't LOL

Someone should block my iPhone from the forum when I'm in NYC - need sleep :truce:

I liked it better when y'all thought Ewa was my sugar momma.

Feel like....



.... a shadow of myself:



At least Compton Timberwolf let me play for a while today


-



-





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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2017, 12:11:32 am »
Now were getting some humor :great: :beerchug: BerndV, Thanks for the clarification, I was questioning my ability to earn money to feed my family for awhile there  ;). We can all learn from even the simplest of folks yeah? As many have pointed out on this extensive trip down the rabbit hole there are many factors involved in detonation yes? I've only experienced it once and was as described previously. Before any flash.  2 up, uphill hairpin, gear to high, to much right hand, at altitude. High load, High resistance, WOT. Didn't work, Dropped 2 and away we went. Also I don't hammer the bike. She will rarely see red line. When I tested Steves Evo flash I stuck the bike in 6th at about 30 mph just to see. Never hammered the throttle. Gentle little adjustments to keep me rolling on flat ground. Good reaction. And part of Steves flash bennie is the ability to carry a gear higher through corners. This save's calories burned on an extra left hand left toe movement. Win Win  :great: I'm not here to argue science (though Science sez bees can't fly) or OEM engineering doctrine (I also won't be changing plugs every 7.5k miles What? Plugs again? Around 40k miles and they still gapped correct too.) It's all good. Run yer oil, tires, seat, octane, windscreen, color, fingerless gloves. Bless America and freedom of choice. Take it for what it's worth. Carry on my friends! I'm prepping for OTP  :) Anybody wanna donate to buy me a beer? :motonoises:
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 We gonna dance! Danke Schoen

Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2017, 02:38:38 pm »
Bless America and freedom of choice. Take it for what it's worth. Carry on my friends! I'm prepping for OTP  :) Anybody wanna donate to buy me a beer? :motonoises:

Yes, gotta love freedom of choice.  Yesterday I jumped on my Connie in sneakers, jeans, tee-shirt, fingerless gloves and my half helmet, to run to the store and buy some beer.

OMC ... if we ever meet up, I'll buy you a beer!   :)
1968 Honda 160 Scrambler,  Sold / 1979 Kawasaki SR 650, Traded in for next one,  1978 Kawasaki KZ 1000 Z1R Turbo Sold / 1986 Kawasaki ZX 1000R Ninja / 1999 Kawasaki Concours / 2014 Kawasaki Concours 1400  COG memb# 8645


Offline mattchewn

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2017, 03:49:05 pm »
OMC,
Did you get your shims yet?
Matt
2015 C14  Poison Ivy. I feel the itch!
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R  Wheelie sweet!!

Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: Valve Check 2011 after Steves flash. For what it's worth
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2017, 11:12:57 pm »
Your on Turbo  :beerchug:. Matt, Yessir and thank you! Installed last night. Tonight cams go in and torqued. Tomorrow night final check and valve cover install. Damned paying job just sux up all my fun time. Got your's packed up for return. Should hit the post by Friday. Thanx for the swap brother. Keep me posted on your west states adventure. May have a chance to hook up.  :great: :beerchug:
"I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do, It's a Concours. A C14 '11 silver to be precise." OTP 2017 We gonna dance! Danke Schoen