Author Topic: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??  (Read 1943 times)

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Offline ghostrider990

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Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« on: February 08, 2018, 03:12:18 pm »
As I get closer to giving up a wad of ca$h to have a dealership inspect my valves (no comments, PLEASE), I am "interviewing" service departments, to decide who I think will do a better job.

Today, for the first time - I had a svc advisor tell me that the mechanic will "Drop the engine" from the frame, to get at the top end of the motor.

While I understand that this WOULD indeed make the job a WHOLE lot easier (and one reason I don't wish to do it myself) I am really curious if they will actually DO THIS??
Is it common practice at the dealerships???

Also, really wondering how much MORE is involved in "unbolting" the engine from the cradle??

I'm sure MOST everyone will come back and say, "a competent mechanic CAN do a valve job WITHOUT dropping the engine".

But if I'm paying a flat 8 hours of labor for the inspection, wouldn't it stand to reason that dropping the engine would provide a generous amount of SPACE and clearance to do a BETTER, more thorough job of checking the valve lash and replacing all the components???

Relevant input please.....not, "you can do it yourself".  I'm past that point, and I've stated why in other posts.

thanks!

gr
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Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 03:35:16 pm »
have set valves on several c14's, never  had to drop[ the engine...i would find another service dept or dealer...
happy trails  2016 concours14,2010 bmw k1300ggt, 2015 bmw r1200rt, 09 concours14, 75 kawasaki H1   500cc*79 triumph bonneville750* 2 each  82su zuki gs1100e* 05 yamaha fz1 1100* 03 yamaha fz1 1100*01 goldwing 1800*97 goldwing 1500* 93 goldwing 1500* 80 kawasaki vulcan 1500*76 kawasaki kz650* 66 triumph Bonneville 650* 68 triumph tr 650* 72 norton commando750* 70 bsa rocket III 750*  68 hon cb350* 66 hon cb305*1960 BSA golden flash 500cc*1950 cushman

Offline P07r0457

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 04:00:53 pm »
I'd be concerned that they're just trying to make the job seem more involved than it really is.

Trust is a big deal, to me.  I don't trust most shops -- and a comment like that would certainly cause me to move on to another dealer.
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 04:02:01 pm »
Quote
Today, for the first time - I had a svc advisor tell me that the mechanic will "Drop the engine" from the frame, to get at the top end of the motor.

RUN, don't WALK from that service department!  That's like open-heart surgery to place a stent.  It's NUTS!
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 04:05:03 pm »
Quote
Today, for the first time - I had a svc advisor tell me that the mechanic will "Drop the engine" from the frame, to get at the top end of the motor.

RUN, don't WALK from that service department!  That's like open-heart surgery to place a stent.  It's NUTS!

While I've not personally removed an engine from a C14, I believe that it's a MUCH more difficult job than simply accessing and removing the valve cover to check and adjust the valve.  For me this speaks of ignorance vs. some idea that this is the better way.  If it were the better way, we'd ALL be dropping the engine to adjust the valves.  In fact, NOBODY, save this dealer's service dept. is either doing or suggesting this method.

Quote
But if I'm paying a flat 8 hours of labor for the inspection, wouldn't it stand to reason that dropping the engine would provide a generous amount of SPACE and clearance to do a BETTER, more thorough job of checking the valve lash and replacing all the components???

There is, in fact, PLENTY of space to access the top of the engine and perform all the needed checks and adjustments with the engine safely in the frame.  I'm going to guess that this dealer has never even done one of these.
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 04:13:13 pm »
Thanks  guys.

Keep 'em coming.  I too don't trust dealerships.  I usually prefer to do the work myself, but again - not this time.

This guy (service advisor) claimed to have owned two zx-14's, so he knows the motor, but again - I've worked with Svc Advisor's  who would sell their mother a full compliment of Flushes on a brand new car JUST to make a buck.

I'm going to call a few other shops to see what they say.

Does anybody know if the kawi SHOP MANUAL recommends dropping the engine for the valve inspection?
mine isn't handy at the moment.

*and further to my distrust, now going on an hour, and no quote via email from this place*
why must dealerships ALL be so friggin' SHADY???

gr
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 04:21:08 pm by ghostrider990 »
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 04:23:37 pm »
Quote
Does anybody know if the kawi SHOP MANUAL recommends dropping the engine for the valve inspection?
mine isn't handy at the moment.

No, it does not for EITHER the C14 or the ZX14.  In fact the procedures are nearly identical.
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Offline Buzzard

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2018, 07:03:42 pm »
Kawasaki's own service manual has you setting valve clearance with the motor in frame. Here's a question I have, which relates to what you are doing. If you pay a shop to check your valves, do they do it on a flat rate and quote you a price? If so, do they then quote you an additional price to remove the cams, measure the shims, install new correct shims, re-install cams, measure clearances again, if they find cams out of spec? If the shop claims they will do all of this for the first quote, you can bet they will find the valves to be OK, that slightly tight valves will be judged to be tolerable. I would respect a shop that quoted an additional fee to change the valve setting, and also one that will show you a diagram of the measured clearances before and after the job was done. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2018, 07:54:04 pm »
Every shop i've talked to (3) calls this a 15k service, which is based on the interval of the Kawi recommendation of the valve clearance "check", and kawi service manual recommendations for bike inspection and changing of all fluids, except coolant, which is recommended at 30k.

Each shop offers a full inspection and various fluid changes and services (steering head repack / throttle cable lube / spark plug change / brake, clutch, oil, diff. fluid) included in the minimum hourly fee of 8 hours.
This includes tear down, and reassembly, with all parts and fluids being an extra charge.  Still with me?

Most offer the ability to simply check and adjust the valves for roughly $600-700 (based on shop hourly rate) with any parts or fluids being extra.  I've seen this price quoted by other members here on the forum, and it would explain where they got the cheaper rate for this service.  Since the top of the motor is already off to CHECK the valve clearances, it stands to reason that this charge also includes ADJUSTMENT, but i've not taksed anyone with that specific question.

Without getting hyperbolic about TRUST and what a shop DOES and DOESN'T do, I think we can all agree that tearing down a C-14, and peeling off the valve cover, in addition to pulling the cams and resetting the shims is a time consuming process.

Pretty sure even Steve and others have chimed-in to confirm as much.  So 8 hours of shop labor really isn't a stretch.
This is the type of job that's going to tie-up a tech's lift for a whole day, even a skilled tech.

My inclination is, that this Svc Advisor spoke out of his depth - and truly doesn't know what he's talking about.  A chat with a technician or another shop will confirm or deny this.

So to answer Buzzard's question more directly: I don't think the extra $300 in labor above and beyond the "valve check" charge  is designed to be a pitfall -- it's there to cover the rest of the 15k service charges and safety checks + fluid swaps, etc.
Is it fluff?  Arguable.
But in my case, I NEED the fluids to be changed.
Can I do these myself?  Yes, but if I'm taking the bike to the shop, I might as well have them do the whole damn thing, and be done with it.  Again, personal choice.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 08:13:00 pm by ghostrider990 »
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Offline cuda

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 09:32:10 pm »
I see your in the  SE I would give Steve a call

Most shops go by the book as in what it should take ,  short cut the job /close enough... then do the job in half the time and charge BOOK time.

I've been screwed by DEALERS way to many times .
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 10:44:25 pm »
I'm channeling MOB here (he reads, and has my email address  ;) ) Yes, the zx14 engine needs to be dropped, no the c-14 doesn't.

 Now from Steve - I've not done a zx14, so can't comment. zg14's definitely do not need to be dropped.

  And if you're going to put it in for a valve "check" just use the money you've alread spent to actually accomplish something. Have them do a a full valve adjustment, and provide you with a before / after shim map with clearances from the original measurements. And personally, I think leaving the valves at min spec is BS, 'cus the  next step for them is out of spec.  >:(

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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2018, 10:58:29 pm »
Thanks for Chiming in Steve.

Since it's now been said twice due to my loose use of "check" and "adjustment", I DO understand the difference, and I have
NO intention of simply having somebody just CHECK the valves.

That is positively silly.

I have copies of the shim clearance chart, and have made it clear that I expect the Tech who performs the work to record said clearances from my valves.

thank for everyone's input.

gr
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 11:04:32 pm »
Are many of us here in this forum  in agreement that the valve 'Adjustment' can be scheduled for 24k (or 25k) miles with no worries about the valves loosing all clearances?
I thought we had a general consensus\agreement  on this or am I wrong. 
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 12:06:01 am »
Are many of us here in this forum  in agreement that the valve 'Adjustment' can be scheduled for 24k (or 25k) miles with no worries about the valves loosing all clearances?
I thought we had a general consensus\agreement  on this or am I wrong.

  Hey Mike, based on kaw's recommendations for the EU and others around the world, you are correct. Of course in the US, If you have a bike under warantee and you don't do the scheduled maintenance on the manufacturers timetable, you will give up any ability to make a claim if something goes wrong and the smoke gets out  :o  Steve

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Offline C. Moore

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 11:14:09 am »
Ghostrider, it sounds like you need to find someone over in the SE area that you can trust to do the valve adjust. Good luck with your search. Here in the DFW area the only person I know of is Fred Harmon down in Grandbury. I trust Fred but didn't want the hassle of drop off and pick up so I did it myself. BTW, I did my valve adjust at 26K. Nothing out of spec but plenty getting tight. Good luck.
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Offline ron203

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 08:02:28 pm »
Nate, there's a guy in N. Atlanta who has done some for the guys in the SE and is homebased. If you want his contact info, shoot me a PM.

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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 11:14:43 pm »
Thanks Ron.

I've got his contact info already.

I've stated in other posts, that I'd prefer to do the valve check via a Certified Kawasaki tech to keep my extended warranty valid.
Cost is almost apples to apples considering travel and downtime, but its the TRUST factor that is kind of crap shoot when it comes to choosing a dealership.

Really unfortunate that NOBODY in NC has a relationship with a local dealership / service shop.

thanks for the offer!

N
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 11:52:40 pm by ghostrider990 »
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 12:58:24 am »
Quote
I've stated in other posts, that I'd prefer to do the valve check via a Certified Kawasaki tech to keep my extended warranty valid.

You need only to perform the recommended services to keep your warranty intact.  There is no requirement to have any work done at a dealer or by a "certified" mechanic.

Quote
Really unfortunate that NOBODY in NC has a relationship with a local dealership / service shop.

That fact should tell you something right there!
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Offline strum

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 01:20:36 am »
Thanks Ron.

I've got his contact info already.

I've stated in other posts, that I'd prefer to do the valve check via a Certified Kawasaki tech to keep my extended warranty valid.
Cost is almost apples to apples considering travel and downtime, but its the TRUST factor that is kind of crap shoot when it comes to choosing a dealership.

Really unfortunate that NOBODY in NC has a relationship with a local dealership / service shop.

thanks for the offer!

N

This  why I would only recommend The guy Ron is speaking of. Trust .. You can trust him .
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 05:31:53 pm by strum »
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Offline cuda

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 02:58:54 am »
It would be interesting to have one of our own (hint,hint) check a dealers valve job to see if they would be reset to the middle of spec range , or like it has been said they were all in spec.    barely .... :popcorncouple:
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Offline strum

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 05:34:07 pm »
I edited my previous post . I had meant to say you can trust him and instead I said "can't" sorry for the mix up .
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 05:45:00 pm »
I edited my previous post . I had meant to say you can trust him and instead I said "can't" sorry for the mix up .

I caught it.  I knew what you meant.  :great:
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Offline TimR

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 09:33:25 pm »
I had a leaky final drive that was repaired by a dealer under the extended warranty. There was never a question about service being done. In the event of a burnt valve, I would think it could be a question.
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 12:49:10 pm »
Here's a question for the more advanced mechanics among us:  if the engine indeed gets "dropped" from the frame, how involved IS that??

Is it simply a matter of a few bolts and main members??

I'm having trouble visualizing this operation.

Also, if the engine is released from the cradle, does the radiator have to come off and/or get disconnected???
I've had my radiator off before to make room to swap the headers, but I now know that wasn't entirely necessary to accoplish that task.

Thanks again  for the input.

gr
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Offline oldnslo_MO

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Re: Valve Inspection:Dropping the Engine??
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 01:04:41 pm »
it's a major pain in the a$$. :deadhorse:
happy trails  2016 concours14,2010 bmw k1300ggt, 2015 bmw r1200rt, 09 concours14, 75 kawasaki H1   500cc*79 triumph bonneville750* 2 each  82su zuki gs1100e* 05 yamaha fz1 1100* 03 yamaha fz1 1100*01 goldwing 1800*97 goldwing 1500* 93 goldwing 1500* 80 kawasaki vulcan 1500*76 kawasaki kz650* 66 triumph Bonneville 650* 68 triumph tr 650* 72 norton commando750* 70 bsa rocket III 750*  68 hon cb350* 66 hon cb305*1960 BSA golden flash 500cc*1950 cushman